Forums36
Topics41,065
Posts559,105
Members18,565
|
Most Online3,612 Jan 10th, 2023
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,090 Likes: 285
Moderator Lunker
|
Moderator Lunker
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,090 Likes: 285 |
Eddie, I also now have bullheads where none were previously. However, I have a creek that it about 10 ft lower than the pond and about 100 ft. away. I believe that in the record rains of 2007, the creek got up to the pond.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 773 Likes: 1
Lunker
|
Lunker
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 773 Likes: 1 |
This pond is about 1,500 feet from the creek. The path the water takes when the pond overflows would come close to doubling the distance that the water must travel, including culverts, open ditches, woods and a field.
In time, I plan on daming up one of the ditches, adding another three culverts and two embankmants to catch that water and turn it to my big pond.
Before leaving my property, the water then travels about 400 feet along the State Highway before entering the creek. In the last three years, I've had two major floods along the creek. The water from the creek was up about 4 feet over the edge of the creek embakment.
My small pond with the bullhead is 40 feet higher in elevation then the creek.
Eddie
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,097 Likes: 18
Lunker
|
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,097 Likes: 18 |
I actually saw a 3'tall blue heron, stuffed to the gills with baby crappie, stab one with it's beak, position it into it's mouth...and fly 300 yds to dump it into another body of water. Seeing is believing...I doubt it was this birds first attempt to relocate a future food source to favorable area for his later return, and feast.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 343
Lunker
|
Lunker
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 343 |
I have been living on my 12 acres for 10 years. It is mostly woods and has sinkholes everywhere. Pretty much all the rainfall in the area is drained by sinkholes and the creeks are few and far between. Three of these sinkholes on my property will hold water year round during an average to wet year. The widest one is maybe 1/4 acre but shallow. It lies right on the backside of the dam of a 5+ acre lake owned by a sporting club I share a border with. The lake doesn't overflow into this small hole but does into a different sinkhole on my ground that don't hold water. All three of these holes have no outflow of water as there has never been enough rain to fill them to the edge of there respective holes (and this has been the 3rd wettest spring on record for our area.) There is no way fish can get into these holes by swimming upstream or downstream as there is no "stream". These holes all have had turtles, frogs, and get visited by herons. I have never seen any fish in these holes since I have lived here. Only last year did I begin to plant fish in them to keep mosquitoes down.
At my parents pond we had to build a concrete spillway "chute" with a small waterfall to keep the bullhead out of their pond. Even with this in place I have found 1 inch bullhead working themselves to exhaustion working their way up the chute. Luckily we have never caught one in the pond so they have not been successful yet(20+ years). I think 99.9999% of fish swim their way into new ponds instead being delivered by air. Since they can't swim their way into my sinkholes they don't show up.
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,287
Lunker
|
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,287 |
I still believe that the vast majority of fish enter ponds when water goes over the emergency spillway, but I have to give Eastland's word consideration. His post reminded me of this video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=BGPGknpq3e0
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,365
Lunker
|
Lunker
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,365 |
I think 99.9999% of fish swim their way into new ponds instead being delivered by air. I think you probably right. However, the other .0001% can be a serious problem to pond owners that don't want bull heads. I think incidental fish transferrals are ucommon to rare. Nevertheless, they are inevitable over time. Here's 1 of the most rare vectors, depending where you live. http://youtube.com/watch?v=cnweu5imNwEI can't believe nobody has see 1 bird dive bomb another bird and force it into releasing it's fish. It happens millions of times a day, and I'm sure it happens while flying over unstocked ponds a few times a day. Some ponds are so iolated they could go 100 years without being stocked. Yet I have seen 1 year old stump holes 300 feet from any water (or any possibility of flooding) with minnows in it.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 7,615 Likes: 5
Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
|
Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 7,615 Likes: 5 |
My cat use to move things all over the house. Sticky note pads (he loved the small ones), contact lens case, my wife's hair scrunchy, etc. It is my theory that cats move fish from pond to pond. Just to mess with us. I don't have any proof, it's just a working theory but still...
JHAP ~~~~~~~~~~ "My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." ...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,287
Lunker
|
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,287 |
bobad, are the minnows in the stump holes Gams? I can imagine that a pregnant female could release viable fry as she's carried over ponds in a bird's beak. If 3 or 4 fry made it into a remote pond it's highly likely they would successfully breed. I think the egg theory is possible but far less likely than live bearers spreading this way.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5
Fingerling
|
Fingerling
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5 |
I think that fish eventually will appear in ponds without stocking via other animals etc.etc. But, it you want fish in your pond I recommend that you stock it yourself. Fingerlings aren't that expensive y'know.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,287
Lunker
|
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,287 |
I think that they evolve spontaneously in individual ponds. Hi MisterFisher, welcome to the forum.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 4
Fingerling
|
Fingerling
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 4 |
Agreed. Eventually at least 1 fish will end up in an unstocked pond.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,800 Likes: 314
Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
|
Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,800 Likes: 314 |
O Canada! Welcome aboard guys as GW said.
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,365
Lunker
|
Lunker
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,365 |
bobad, are the minnows in the stump holes Gams? I can imagine that a pregnant female could release viable fry as she's carried over ponds in a bird's beak. If 3 or 4 fry made it into a remote pond it's highly likely they would successfully breed. I think the egg theory is possible but far less likely than live bearers spreading this way. Yea, it was gams. There were a dozen or 2, and all the same size. It's a no-brainer how gams get transplanted in ponds. Bird ruptures pregnant gam, sticky mass of babies stick to beak, bird wades in barren pond, spears a swimming frog or snake, gams are rinsed off of beak.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,287
Lunker
|
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,287 |
I almost added Gams to my pond when I stocked 110 RES fingerlings. I'm enough of a skeptic that I put the fish in an aquarium to check them first. I found 4 or 5 Gams.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5
Fingerling
|
Fingerling
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5 |
Lol. Am I the only Canadian here?
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 99
Lunker
|
Lunker
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 99 |
Its simple how other fish end up in unstocked ponds. Bird wades through fish bed, eggs or small fry stick to bids legs, feathers, etc. bird flys to new pond and deposits its passengers.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,800 Likes: 314
Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
|
Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,800 Likes: 314 |
MF, you and JamesM seem to have joined around the same time. Welcome aboard again.
We have several folks from the North Country. All great folks. I haven't seen any of your other posts as I've been tied up lately. Have you told us about your pond? You could start a new thread.
calvin, there's most certainly a split on the forum between who believes the fish egg thing is possible and who does not. There are a lot of past threads that have some interesting discussions.
Here's where I'm at now:
1) Stockings do take place from birds accidentally dropping fish; how this translates into creating existing populations of that 'introduced' species, I'm not sure. There would have to be both sexes.
2) I believe some species of birds may instinctively transport fish from one body of water to another maybe to creat a food source. HOWEVER, I have no evidence to support that.
3) Flooding or access to other waters is one method that I don't think anyone disputes.
4) I think that in some areas of land where there are underground water connections is a very feasible idea.
5) Regarding the transport of eggs by bird, turtle, etc., I don't know enough.
6) Alien stockings? Of course.
7) Ole Mudcat Joe and his compatriots across the land. Yes, more than we know.
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 14,037 Likes: 300
Moderator Lunker
|
Moderator Lunker
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 14,037 Likes: 300 |
Aren't 6) & 7) redundant?
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,097 Likes: 18
Lunker
|
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,097 Likes: 18 |
Obviously it's not an easy accomplishment, otherwise we would have a much wider variety of fish in our waters. I believe the pond on my property was void of life when I bought the place...I'm just not patient enough to wait 100's of years to see if an accident happens where fish appear So I helped out Mother Nature and put life in!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 388
Lunker
|
OP
Lunker
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 388 |
Shew!Gosh! So much reading and analyzing. Now I am going to throw another monkey-wrench in. Yesterday evening we went to the grocery about 8 miles away--we live on a farm in the country-side. Along the country road coming back from the grocery to the main road as I'm going around a curve on the country road my eye catches something on the side, I immediately say "Look at that large catfish!" (mind you, this wasn't there before enroute). You should have seen the look my husband gave me (like I was a crazy woman! He didn't believe me. I had to stop and backup the car the curve and pull over on the side of the road. My husband had to get out and go look at it--he just didn't believe it was a fish, he said it must be some kind of road kill. I said, No it is a fish! Believe it or not, there lay on the side of the road an approx 15" beautiful, dead, catfish. Not from my pond I assure you, it was at least 2 miles away from our pond. We had a good laugh trying to figure out how it got there (we know there is a pond delivery truck that passes on the road, maybe??).
Which brings up the question many of you are answering, how long would a fish live out of the water?... how quick the transfer would have to happen? ...birds fly pretty fast and just maybe, if intercepted by another, they drop their catch, large bird? Maybe a cat or such found it in a creek and dropped it here, but then it didn't look attacked or anything, didn't smell?
It just made me really, really think about the question that started this thread, answers I read and I have come to the conclusion anything is possible after seeing this fish on the side of the road in the middle of no-where ...............weirder things happen.................Dot
Last edited by MarkECIN; 05/24/08 01:55 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,086
Lunker
|
Lunker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,086 |
That was 1 that got beamed down and missed the pond.aliens make mistakes too,ya know
I subscribe Some days you get the dog,and some days he gets you.Every dog has his day,and sometimes he has two!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,074
Lunker
|
Lunker
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,074 |
I am sticking with what I have said all along THAT THIS IS MORE FUN THAN A BARREL OF MONKEYS.
When it was time to get up this morning my first thought was about this topic.
Thanks Otto
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,287
Lunker
|
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,287 |
I don't doubt that mature fish are dropped by birds occasionally, but mystery fish show up in ponds far too often for that to be the main explanation.
1. What are the odds that a dropped fish will land in a pond?
(Statistically it is far far more likely to hit dry land, but let's say it hits a pond.)
2. What are the odds of the fish surviving capture, transportation without oxygen and the long drop into the pond?
(Let's say a fish did land in a pond and survive the ordeal.)
3. What are the odds that another fish of the same species will also land in that very same pond and survive?
(Okay, assume that this event happened twice in the same pond.)
4. What are the odds that the second lucky fish is the opposite sex of the first lucky surviver? (Easy, the odds are 2 to 1, so double the odds against the fish successfully establishing.)
With each of those four steps the odds get higher and higher that the dropped fish won't survive and establish themselves. I believe the "dropped fish theory" can't account for even a tiny fraction of the mystery fish that appear in ponds. I'm more inclined to believe that birds are seeding ponds intentionally.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,090 Likes: 285
Moderator Lunker
|
Moderator Lunker
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,090 Likes: 285 |
GW, you are right but left out a lot of steps. The odds are too enormous for all of the birds mustadunit stories.
I'm not saying that it can't happen BUT even under the most favorable of circumstances only about 1/10 of 1% of yoy ever grow up to reproduce.
Otto, get a life. There is a 12 step program for this stuff but is pretty lightly utilized.
Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 05/24/08 07:55 AM.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 14,037 Likes: 300
Moderator Lunker
|
Moderator Lunker
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 14,037 Likes: 300 |
He has a life. It's just that you guys who get up at 0-Dark-30 need something to do to kill the huge head start it gives you on the rest of the world.
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling
|
|
|
Moderated by Bill Cody, Bruce Condello, catmandoo, Chris Steelman, Dave Davidson1, esshup, ewest, FireIsHot, Omaha, Sunil, teehjaeh57
There are no members with birthdays on this day. |
|
|
|