Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Why cant we have fish like the nortern ponds do?

I would love to have some Walleye, Pike or other kinds of fish like they do up north. Will they not live because the water gets to hot or what? They have LMB, Crappie up there.

Walleye and northern pike are considered "coolwater fish." They have problems in too warm of water although they can briefly handle very warm temps, but even then their metabolism will not be at optimum and growth will be sub par. However I have heard smallmouth another "coolwater fish" is more adapatable down south.

An interesting note about northern pike; They become virtually a "coldwater fish" when they get over 10 lbs. The lakes that produe the really big ones usually have a coldwater refuge in the summer. At least that is what some research I have seen says.

I would think that most of those fish could live in a Texas Pond as long as it is deep enough to have some cooler water in those deep areas. You probably couldn't count of them reproducing, but if you practice catch and release you could have fun catching them for quite a few years.

Getting those "northern fish" to Texas may be an issue to overcome since Walleye(etc)hatcheries in Texas are probably rare to nonexistent.

There are both YP and eyes in some Texas - reservoirs. SMB in more Texas lakes and in Tenn. / Miss /Ala and north. Ponds in Texas are a different story as they would have to be deep , large and aerated. Not only would they require deep cool water but it would have to be non-stratified with good DOs.

Distribution
The walleye is native to the central portion of North America from the Rocky Mountain to the Appalachian Mountain chains, ranging as far south as Arkansas, Mississippi, and Alabama, and as far north as Great Slave Lake, the Mackenzie River and the Peace River in northwest Canada. Introductions have extended the range beyond the Appalachian Mountains in the east, to the Columbia river in the west, and as far south as Texas. The species has been stocked in several Texas reservoirs.
Other
High summer water temperatures restrict walleye growth and survival in much of Texas. However, in the north Texas lakes, such as Lake Meredith, the species does very well. Six-to-eight pound specimens are common at times. The state record comes from Lake Meredith and stands at 11.88 pounds. Walleye is considered an excellent food fish from Texas to the northern states.

Just a thought here, if a pond had heavy mats of vegetation at the surface that shaded most of the shallow water, but was fairly open underneath vegetation, could this keep water temps cool enough for some northern species to do well in TX?

Shorty, I would bet if you had enough shade to keep the water cool, you would loose plankton and oxygen.

I've thought this same question before. Why are there so many northern game fish predators but fewer baitfish species?
Once someone on this forum asked why catfish don't eat during the winter and the answer was "because they are cold blooded". Are trout not cold blooded? Are there snakes and lizasrds running around on the snow up in Ohio in January? How do the cold water fish do it? Please shed some light on this for me.

There are snakes running around in NE during January if the we have a slight warm spell. Just last weekend I watched my brother toss a garder snake out into the snow that was sunning itself in front of his front door.

jhfv,

I uesd to catch grass pickerel in warm shallow water in SE Louisiana. They look similar to miniature pike and musky. They don't get very big... maybe 3 pounds tops... but they think they can fly. Sure wish I had a source for some fry.

Brian:

I know there are some neat physiological adaptations for cold water fish that lets them stay active when water temps are way, way down there, even going as far as what amounts to anti-freeze (special oils/lipids, IIRC) in some oceanic species.

The grass and redfin pickerel are closely related to eachother (subspecies), but only get to 10-12 inches long and maybe a pound. They would not survive very long in with LMB or larger pickerel or pikes due to predation - you only see them in small streams and marshes up here in NY State where they are the top predator. I would suggest chain pickerel, which can get to 6 pounds and 25-30 inches long (smaller than Northern Pike or Muskie). While they are found in cooler clear lakes, I have seen them in shallow swamps (and turbid) up here that get into the mid 80's in summer. I also remember from my "Google" research before, that they exist all the way down to Florida and can handle extremes of temperature, pH and even some brackish water - a fairly hardy fish in warmer water versus Pike or Muskie and don't grow as big. Google "pickerel habitat" or similar keywords and see what it shows for geographic range, water quality, etc.

Southern species don't stop growing when water tempratures get cold. Growth is just faster down south. Northern species are more adapted for growth in water that remains cooler at all times. It's more about evolutionary adaptaitons than North vs. South. I better be careful I don't want this to turn into another civil war.

Chad,

No civil war here. You're right. Northern species have evolved to live in coldwater or a shorter growing season and vice versa for sothern warmwater fish. However even coldwater fish stop growing if the water is cold enough. For trout it's 38 F. They still eat but it's only used for maintainence - no growth.

There are studies on north vs. south (whatever that is) on LMB and BG comparing various factors including how far north and or south and its latitudinal effect. There are also a lot of feeding (bioenergetics) studies on various species. At some point (temp} fish growth stops (or is negligible - some near 32F some as high as 60F) and the energy is used for base body functions and not growth. The temp depends on both species and adaptation within a species. There are a couple species of warm blooded sharks (in that they don't slow metabolism in cold water - Great Whites and Salmon Sharks IIRC). There are plenty of northern forage species and southern ones also but there may be some one place and different ones another place. For example TShad in the south but not up north (to cold) but in place (same biologic niche) alewife a close cousin or blueback herring.

Ewest,

Good info. What I find even more intriguing is some species have evolved to handle different temps even though they are still the same species. That's why from my observation you're better off stocking your pond with fish that are adapted to your region. An example would be I would not, given the choice, plant my pond with bluegills from one of the big Arkansas fish farms vs. local bluegill. I just don't think they would be as adaptable to our winters.

I have also had bad luck ( poor survival) with fish from an RAS (Recirculating Aquaculture System) planted into an outdoor pond, but I believe that is not the same thing as the species evolving different tolerances. The RAS fish had no stamina and catching and releasing them killed them. They may also not have had a normal immune system as they may not have been exposed to certain pathogen before being planted into the pond.

In the past few years our MNR biologists have discovered that there is a genetic difference even in our local lake trout that causes one strain to out-perform another from 60 miles away. Its definitely an evolutionary thing and seems to be connected with things like the water acidity and disolved minerals. We have two local strains of lake trout here in central Ontario that have evolved with major differences from the Great Lakes trout. Only now, since genetic testing has become feasible has this been found out, but it seems to explain some of the successes and failures of our MNR's stocking system.
On the pickeral question, don't get wall-eye (a member of the perch family) confused with grass pickeral, members of the pike family (don't remember the scientific names) They are two different fish, with different bone structures and a vast difference in edibility. One we prize, the other we curse...

I would bet that if a DNA regression was done on those 2 trout strains they would indicate that the 2 strains diverged about the time (geologic time) that the 2 lake systems separated.

Thats exactly what they tell us. And why when they are doing their stocking and making regulations pertaining to seasons, catch limits etc, they are being careful not to mix the different strains.We have a new hatchery dedicated to replentishing the local strain and stocking certain lakes. Other lakes are "put, grow and take" These get stocked with the great lakes strain and are open to fishing all year.

Pat, is the 60 mile difference in the two pond locations north to south or east to west, or a mix?

I was ice fishing the last weekend in January and saw a nice channel caught. I lost a pole to a CC through the ice last year, saw it on my Aquavu. As far as cold blooded creatures in cold weather goes....

Catch catfish alla time under the ice up here. Water temps deep are near 39F, anyway. We start fishing the rivers as soon as ice is off...water is even colder then, but they still eat.

Abilene, TX, where we have a plant, they put in Saugeye (cross between sauger & Walleye) several years ago. They still catch 'em once in a while...they can tolerate much warmer waters than walleyes.

When I lived in New England we used to catch bullheads through the ice all the time. Of course they are native fish and have adapted. I've also seen channel cats taken through the ice. It seems though they have to be plentiful for it to happen on a regular basis.

Conversely I am at the northern edge of the range of redear sunfish. They are notoriusly more difficult to catch through the ice vs. a bluegill. It's not unusual to see them come up to your bait and not be interested or pass it by. My opinion is they are not as tolerant of cold temps because we are close to their limit of tolerance as far as winters.

My ponds went ice-off yesterday after about 3 weeks of being frozen; I had a nice, big, dead Redear floating at the shore last night. Winters can be hard on them up here.

Where did you get your redears from Theo?

Jones Fish in SW Ohio.

Is it possible they got them from one of those southern producers in Arkansas. I hear a lot of producers get their fish from down that way. Of course I'm getting at the fact that they may not be as adaptable up here where we are.