Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Hybrid bluegill and swimming in a new pond

We are hopefully going to have a pond this upcoming spring and I want to stock it, but I would also like to do a lot of swimming too. The pond will be attached to a small two acre marsh which should provide plenty of places for fish to hide.

I would like to use Hybrid Bluegill as they grow faster and are more aggressive, but have heard they nip swimmers pretty good. This isn't a problem for me, no really it isn't, but it would be for my wife. I would like to have a chance of her swimming in the pond, so I am wondering if I should opt for regular bluegill rather than the hybrid.

I am just looking for a combination of fish that will allow for some bigger fish, smb or lmb or crappie, and then some smaller fish for my young sons to have fun with in easy catching.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Howdy, Toro.

I have a close neighbor who had a 1/2 acre pond with nothing but HBG in it. The adults never seemed to be nippers, but they reproduced like crazy, and the offspring could be quite annoying to his grandkids.

The pond now has 28 smallmouth between 8 and 19 inches, and 25 muskies, between 8-12 inches. I put the SMB in this summer, adding over several weeks as I caught them out of a nearby creek; by October the number of nipper-sized GSF was way down. I suspect the muskies will finish them off, and the pond will be kid-friendly again [unless of course the muskies bite the kids.....well, you know what happens when someone makes something idiot-proof----someone else invents a better idiot!]

Anyway, all of this is to say that I don't thing the GSF will be a problem, as long as you have a good predator base to control their reproduction.

By the way, welcome to the forum, I guess I missed your first post.

Thanks Yolk,
When you say smaller HBG how small are you talking? Less than 3"? I plan on having some combination of predator/s. Smallmouth, Largemouth, Hybrid Largemouth, crappie, etc. I still have to figure out with help from everyone here what the best bet is.

I guess my first task is as soon as I can get out in the spring to find out what if any fish are already in the marsh, and in what ratio. With there being a couple acres of shallower water in the marsh I would love to add some northern pike/muskie for a thrill of cathing, but I am not sure how that would affect any other plans I have for bream and another more reliably caught predator.

Toro welcome to the PB Forum. With your location you have options some of the southern forum members don't - like YP , SMB and eyes. Find out what is in there already and then think about what you want . There are a number of threads here on northern ponds and the options to consider. We can find them so you can start thinking about them.

Toro,

Yep, smaller than 3"; I added the predators with some regrets as this pond is where we usually caught bait-we could catch 20-50 1.5-3" degenerates in a few minutes with #16 hooks and a little piece of Power Worm. But the owner was serious about getting rid of the biters, and was talking rotenone.

As ewest noted, you've got some great predatory options that many of us further down south don't have-it'll be interesting to see what you decide to do.

Welcome, Tororider!!

Make sure to hang in there if you have any trouble making posts the next few days. We are currently having some problems with the website that should be resolved really soon.

Bruce

Trider, I am a professional pond manager with lots of stocking experience from your region (SW of Toledo,OH). Your current goal for a fishery you state is "I am just looking for a combination of fish that will allow for some bigger fish, smb or lmb or crappie, and then some smaller fish for my young sons to have fun with in easy catching. (I plan on having some combination of predator/s. Smallmouth, Largemouth, Hybrid Largemouth, crappie, etc.)" I'm not sure what you mean by Hybrid Largemouth - maybe hybrid stiped bass?

As ewest suggests do some searching of older posted info about northern ponds and the fish in your stocking plan. There are several discussions about stocking MI ponds. The main problem is finding the specific posts.

Here are a few basic nuggets to chew on to get you started toward a final plan.
1. Your 3 bigger fish "bigger fish, smb or lmb or crappie" will need lots and lots of small fish to eat each year to grow to your goal of bigger fish. Plan for EACH larger fish (predator) to eat 3-6 pounds of small fish &/or invertebrate foods) each year. This can amount to 300 to 600 POUNDS of forage fish per acre of water per yr. That is a whole lot of small (1"-4") fish. Hybrid bluegill will not even come close to producing this food base. Hybrid bluegill have very low numbers of offspring compared to bluegills, yellow perch or shiners-minnows. When hybrid bluegills (HBG) are larger sized and not fed pellets they can by themselves eat quite a few small fish (1/2"-1.2") of all species including bass. Bottom line HBG will not provide you a food base to grow larger fish (predators). HBG can be a supplimental panfish in a fishery but do not count on them to provide much forage fish as food.

Second negative to HGB is when they are 7"-9" long with their small fine teeth and behavior of occassionally bitting moles and nipples of idle relaxing swimmers, they can scrape the skin to cause bleeding. Just about every swimmer hates this. I can provide several references who will testify to this behavior character. I never, never recommend HBG for a pond with women and children swimmers. Men will often tolerate the bitting.

2. Since you have a connected small marsh this will provide a nursery area for small fish. I would first focus on stocking fathead minnows and some golden shiners who will find spawning habitat and refugia in the shallows of the marsh area. This should provide ample forage fish providing you do NOT let the predators become too abundant. A few predators that are reproducing should also be harvested annually along with some panfish.

3. You have not told us how big the pond is, whereas the marsh is abt 2 ac. Size, average and maximum depth of pond will affect which species and how many I suggest you stock.

4. Basically you should decide if you want the fishery to be smallmouth or largemouth bass dominated. You cannot easily have both. You can have both but maintaing a quality fishery comprised of both species is an effort, an extra expense and fairly time comsuming. Once you decide which bass is best, then we can work on the other best fish to create a balanced, thriving community.

5. Before you decide on which bass to stock, be sure to go to our Archive section and read all the good discussions in the links to crappies. Bottom line is crappies in ponds are problematic especially for the casual pond owner/manager. For crappies in ponds to be consistantly successful it USUALLY takes a lot of hands on effort or work or in some rare cases just dumb luck. In my experiences visiting many ponds rarely are crappies beneficial over the long term (8-20 yrs). In one pond near me the biggest they get are 7.5" after 10 yrs.

Lets try this.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=15302&fpart=1

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=98850&fpart=1

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=26321&fpart=1


http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post96183


http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=16190&fpart=1

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=25832&fpart=1

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=15233&fpart=1

Bill,
Thanks for all the great info. My pond will be between 2/3 and 3/4 of an acre. Deepest will be 15' and sloping sharply up to avoid too many weeds, will probably be an area used for swim entry that will be less sloped.

Ewest,
Thanks, I will get to reading these articles.

I was thinking I could add some buckets of gravel in the marsh area for spawning beds if that is advisable.

I am not married to either smb or lmb at this point. I like fishing both, especially smallies. I guess I am looking at which is going to give me the ability to be more hands off. I am not averse to doing needed work, but I don't live on the land yet so getting time out there will be a bit of an issue. I also like Perch and have heard good things about the jumbo perch in my limited research.

It sounds like hbg are out, as that would not make for good swimming with my wife and small boys. Regular bluegill, or another type of sunfish are fine with me, I would like something that will be good tablefare which I know bluegills are.

I would love to throw a couple northern pike or muskies in, but I am guessing that would throw any balance out of whack.

Like I said, at this point I am not sure what if any fish are currently in the marsh. There is a very small pond, maybe 40x40, on the other side of the marsh that isn't ours, so I will probably go and talk to that guy and see if he has done anything.

T-rider, Several initial comments.
1. It is a good idea to talk to the neighbor about his small pond connected to the marsh. Although don't be suprised if he says bluegills. Many, many people call all sorts of sunfish and their hybrids - bluegills. Consider yourself lucky if green sunfish are not in the marsh-pond.

2. I highly recommend that you get yourself a fish - minnow trap this winter or spring. After ice out and when water gets to 50F-55F, use some dark colored spray paint to give it a light paint coating to dull the shiny finish of the wire mesh. NOTE: I've found the black rubber coated minnow traps are not very good at collecting fish compared to bare wire mesh traps. Put some bread in the trap set parallel to shore in 12"-18" of water. Set trap in marsh and after a few days in the neighbor's small pond for a few days to check fish in both areas. Maybe the neighbor can run the trap, photo the fish for you or just hold the fish in a bucket for your next trip to the pond. Photograph each type of fish and post photos here or email them to me. The fish can be accurately identified. Note, we need close photos of the fish. Proper identification will help with the stocking plan.

3. Since you are in MI and at this tenative early point, I suggest you research the fish combination of starting with minnows/shiners & yellow perch in spring. In fall add SMB fingerlings. NOTE SMB fingerlings are often difficult to reliably locate each year due to poor spawns of SMB at certain hatcheries. Start your search early and reserve or order SMB early for the fall pickup with the hatchery. IT will be much easier to convert your pond fishery from a YP-SMB combination to a bgill-LMB combination than the other way around; BG-LMB to a YP-SMB.

Since your pond is fairly small, I think a very good plan would be to start with the YP-SMB stocking combo, and then at ANY POINT IN TIME, add a few male bgill for panfish variety. Condello, Baird & myself wrote three very informative articles in Pond Boss Magazine (Mar-Apr, May-Jun, Jul-Aug 2006) about using only male bgills in ponds (back issues available from PBoss forum home page). The articles would be very good reading for you and your application if you use the YP-SMB combo. A total of 40-100 just male BG (8"-11") in our pond would provide some extra good panfishing of very big bgill, IF THE POND DOES NOT ALREADY HAVE ANY BGILL IN IT. Any existing sunfish would likely breed with male bgill complicating the fishery. The bgill and other panfish would perform best when you live at the pond and feed them pellets on a regular basis.

4. Once your fishery becomes mature (3-5yrs) you could add 2-3 northern pike. BUT be VERY AWARE that the 2-3 pike when 24"-30" long could have a huge impact on your intermediate bass and large perch numbers. Those 2-3 pike will be cropping off lots of 9"-12" perch and bass that are available in a small pond. With the 3-5 lb pike present you will see or catch relative few intermediate sized bass and only the occassional large dandy perch. From experience pike will be eating those fish. With pike abscent bass and larger perch fishing will be very good. The choice is yours. I think that is a very big sacrifice to make for an occassional pike catch. Myself, I prefer to commonly catch big perch (11"-14") and 10"-14" bass and then occasionally eat them as opposed to continually feeding one or two pike. My older 3/4 acre pond always had very few 9"-13" LMB when a large pike was present.

5. Compared to the fun and action of 1 or 2 pike, I think your family will be a lot happier with much more hard fish pole pulling action if you stock 10-20 hybrid striped bass (HSB) instead of 1-3 pike. These fish have a small mouth which forces then to eat smaller fish compared to a LMB or pike. The HSB mouth is similar sized to that of a SMB of equal size. If the HSB are fed pellets, they eat fewer fish yet still grow fast. With feeding, expect HSB to easily grow to 24"-28" in SE MI. HSB can be added almost any time whenever just YP-SMB are present.

A few pond owners in my area have just YP-HSB combos that work very well. HSB fight longer and pull harder than the same sized SMB.

Bill,
That sounds great, can I have a title for that article you were talking about, I would love to read it.

When buying bluegill, do I just tell the farm that I want only males? Can I add those in the spring with the yellow perch and fathead/shiners?

I agree that a few pike aren't worth taking all the good size smallies and perch. Not worth it at all.

I will start to look around now for smb I can get in the fall. Thanks for the heads up.

I really appreciate all the info. Should be having the excavator out this week so we can hopefully get things underway.

You get the male bgill articles by buying the 3 back issues of Pond Boss Mag (Mar-Apr, May-Jun, Jul-Aug 2006). The articles are quite detailed and cover practically all the necessary aspects of choosing identifying, choosing good stock, growing and managing for large male BG. Rarely will you find a hatchery that will select just the males for you. Most hatcheries do not sell large enough BG to accurately determine the sex. Usually one has to select their male BG stockers from fishing trips to other waters. Obviously correctly determining the sex is very important. Make mistakes and the project fails. The male BG can be added any time from day one to 6-10 yrs later. I suggest adding just a few (4-10) each year.

In MI you could have a hard time locating shiners - golden shiners. In your readings I mention the use of bluntnose minnows with perch and SMB. Practically no one sells them, although they are great in SMB-YP ponds that have some refugia such as your marsh-wetland. A trip to see me in spring will get you enough breeder bluntnose minnows to get you started. It will not take very many 50-100.

Homework now will locate hatcheries that at least try to sell SMB fingerlings. Having SMB fingerlings every fall is a big challenge for some growners. Larger juvenile SMB (4"-10") are rare as hen's teeth and pretty expensive. Basically SMB fingerlings are only available in fall. Just about everyone sells all their production of SMB fingerlings in the fall and very very few to almost always none are available anywhere in the US for spring sales. If you find them in spring they are premium priced.

A couple of members (howard & aaronM) have ordered SMB from Hartley or Harley Fish Farm out of Kansas, and they've been pleased.

They both had them overnighted in.

Maybe that's an option for T-rider if he can't find a local source.

Sunil is corrrect. One can usually find some hatchery in the US that has fingerlings. Overnight shippment of boxes of fish usually doubles the cost. Many pondowners are on a slim budget and cannot justify the final cost of $5-$10 per fingerling especially if several hundred fingerling are desired. Yikes $$. Since SMB fingerlings are usually scarce, that is why some preplanning and preordering from the closest convenient driving distance (2-4hrs) source is beneficial.
Hickling's Fish Farm (www.hicklingsfishfarm.com) in NY usually has some size of SMB most of the year.

I will start trying to find out where I can get some smallies this year.

So I am looking at catching blue gills out of other lakes and putting any amount of them in the pond at any time? If I add any females the fish will reproduce out of control?

I have no interest in any type of catfish/bottom feeders but I keep seeing so many suggestions of adding those in on fish farm websites. Is this just them trying to sell fish they have, or is there really a benefit to adding them?

Thanks for all the info, I really appreciate it.

Just a side note, but catfish, in general, are not "bottom" feeders. They eat other fish for the most part.

Oops, see, that is how much I need to be edumacated.

Is there any good reason to put them in my pond? Like I said, I have no interest in it unless there is a real good reason for pond management.

I think I was thinking of carp, they are bottom feeders aren't they? I have found four or five places in MI that say they should have SMB next year, most of them told me to call first thing in the spring.

Trider,
A search here for catfish or channel catfish or CC will give you more information than you everwanted to know about them. They are bottom feeders in that they feed on usually living things near the bottom. They will eat preferably fresh dead or dying critters lying easy prey on or near the bottom. Catfish do not eat bottom materials such as dead leaves, muck, and such.

In some instances catfish have been observed to at night come up 30-60 ft off the deep bottom in lakes to feed (catch fish) in open water, so much for bottom feeders. Those fish did not read the book of proper ways for catfish to feed.

I reccommend them for ponds only if you plan to catch and eat them. When large (10-18 lbs) they are a top line predator in ponds and lakes. Once catfish are 16+" they prefer to eat fish and animal items.

You ask, "So I am looking at catching blue gills out of other lakes and putting any amount of them in the pond at any time? If I add any females the fish will reproduce out of control?"

Yes and No. It all depends.
Yes. Most likely you will have to get your male bluegill from ponds or lakes. We explain all that in the articles mentioned above. I suggest you stop by one or several of your neighbor's ponds near your soon to be built pond. Most every pond has BG in it. Ask the owner if you can fish and BUY some of the BG from him. He would be a fool to say no. Most everyone has too many BG. If the 1st owner says no, try again at a different pond. You will soon find a wise pondowner.

The adult male BG are worth $3-$4 ea from the hatchery and $0.50 1.00 ea from a pond setting. Price difference is you are doing all the work of collecting, sorting, holding and transporting. Next, you have to become proficient at accurately selecting males. The articles tell you how to do this. Best time to do this is when BG are spawning (June) and in "full color".

This "male bluegill thing" is evidently Advanced Pond Management. Many forum mumbers are hesitant to do this due to their difficulty in separating males from females. I am learning that many do not find this an easy task, compared to the author's ability. We must have an advanced experience fish selection eyes because I have never found a pond where I cannot select males year round using our methods described in the articles. If you have any doubts about male or female status pitch the fish back into the collection pond. Never put a "doubtful BG" into an all male BG pond. That could be your one mistake that causes the project to flunk.

Only hold and transport 2-3 fish per five gallon bucket so they do not get stressed and die before you get them home. Move only 8-12 fish per time. Do not hold fish in a bucket with out exchanging most of the water for each 20-30 min period.

No. It is not about putting any (BG) amount in your pond. Remember you do not need lots of male BG in your small pond if perch and SMB are present; usually no more that 20-50 added over a 3-5 yr period is enough for most everyone's needs. Remember you plan to have a YP-SMB pond. BG will be an occassional bonus fish. If you want more BG than 50 in a 1/2 acre pond then raise regular reproducing BG.

Yes. You can add male BG any time you have an opportunity to get them. But for novices to identify them it is usually best done in June. Sometimes it can be fun to go with the boys to the neighbors and just fish for some BG for restocking instead of constantly overfishing your pond producing hook smart fish. Research, hook smart or hook shy on our forum.

YES. Making a mistake and adding one female, then you flunk the male BG project. Females, in this case, ruin the single sex party.

Yes - No. Adding one or a few females may or may not cause out of control reproduction. It all depends on several if not numerous very important factors on how the pond is managed, its structure/design, and what fish are in the pond.

Bill,
You are a veritable encyclopedia of fish knowledge!

I was about to order those back issues, just wanted to clarify, they are 2007's or 2006's, you said the last three issues but then wrote 2006 so I just wanted to be sure.

I will order those and read up so I can identify the males and then start fishing them out of neighbors ponds as soon as spring breaks.

I will also do a search for hook smart and hook shy.

Thanks

Trider,
The 3 articles appeared in 2006. Go to the Common Pond Q&A (archives) Section and look for my posts of each year's PBoss Magazine Contents and complete Indexes of Key Words. The older Contents are back on pages 4&5. The Annual List of Contents and the associated indexes are quite complete and helpful for seeing what has been previously published in the Pond Boss Magazines.

Thanks for the compliment. You are kind. I know a fair amount about numerous species of fish and how they behave in various habitats because I have intently studied, read about, and worked with them for many years. There is always a lot more to learn. I'm still learning. If you share your ponding experiences with us we will all learn more together.

You will no doubt have numerous questions after reading the BG articles (Growing Behemoth Bluegills) and THEN trying to put your knowledge into practice. That is where most have difficulty - trying to separate male and female fish in the field that appear to have overlapping body or morphological characters. It is one thing to see the features in a photograph while in your easy chair, and an altogether different experience looking at a live wiggling, flopping fish, gasping for oxygen.

I suggest you read the articles VERY carefully. We three authors put some good photographs and descriptions of detailed key body features of male AND female BG from several different habitat types in the articles to help separate the sexes. I think many anglers have problems accurately separating the sexes because they often try to separate fish that are too young (or small) and not fully mature. It is much easier for beginners if they only try to separate the older mature BG (8"+). Once the male is fully mature he has noticably different body features compared to females and immature males. Males too young will look very similar to females and the two cannot be reliably (100% accuracy) separated even if the person has lots of experience. WE explain all that in the articles. As we mention in the articles, we often take doubtful BG and then feed & hold them in a cage or small pond for 6-12 months to allow them to develop better sexual characters. I am cautious about making mistakes of adding one female BG into my all perch pond. I don't want a failing grade.

Stay in touch with us as your pond plan progresses.

Just got the back issues ordered. Can't wait to learn the difference. Another skill most people will be amazed at, but wonder why I can do it. It should help me catch up to my dad in those skills, hehe.

The excavator can't meet until after the holidays now, so I am bummed. Oh well, should be able to meet right after the new year, until then, I will keep studying and learning.

Since you are building a new pond and probably your first pond, do you have the book "Perfect Pond... Want One?" by Bob Lusk the Pond Boss Magazine editor and Pond guru? The forum moderators helped edit the book which is very educational and full of ideas for before and after a pond is built. If you do not have the book, I suggest you quickly call the PB office back and see if they can include the book with the back issues you ordered. Well worth the price of $25.55(includes ship). You will be able to get some of it read before the contractor arrives.

I've researched the subject--and I kid you not--"Perfect Pond" is the most extensive book ever on the subject. It's got all the information, but it's also reader friendly.

Didn't get back to Kathy fast enough, but I ordered the book anyways. Look forward to reading it while on a minivacation to WI after Christmas. Bonus is I will get to visit with my uncle and check out his pond.