Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Tiger and Gorrilla Bass

He guys and gals. You learn something everyday. Here is a conversation on the AquaNic site in the Largemouth bass category. I've never heard of these terms until now.

From: Chris Miller
Remote Name: astound-64-85-245-87.ca.astound.net
Date: 03 Jun 2003
Time: 11:53:38

Comments
In Southern Ponds & Wildlife magazine there is an interesting article on "Building a better Bass". It covers the production of F1 hybrid LM Bass (Northern x Florida cross). The article states that the fastest growing F1 documented was 7.5lbs. in 27 months. American Sport Fish Hatchery uses selected lines of pure Northern and Florida strain LMB to produce their F1's. They have trademarked the name TIGER BASS for their unique genetic make-up. I wonder if the Tiger Bass would be harder to feed train?

Re: TIGER BASS!
From: Bobby Glennon
Remote Name: max01-lr-41.lr.anc.net
Date: 03 Jun 2003
Time: 21:53:12

Comments

Lets nip this one in the bud.Tiger bass are essentially domesticated northern bass that have been raised for several generations on feed (ie. very assertive "aggressive" fish that will put anything in their mouth, not hard to find). Gorilla bass are the cross between the tiger bass (domesticated northern) and a wild florida strain bass. This blends the assertivness of a domesticated feed trained northern bass with the potential size of florida strain bass. In terms of rapid growth I cannot disprove the article but I will remind you that you can't believe everything you read. In my own experience yoy fingerlings from both domesticated stocks of northern bass and wild florida bass stocked at very light densities (50 per acre) in large minnow production ponds in May reach a size of 3/4 pound by November. In the southeast region there is a great demand for market size 1-2 pound feed trained northern bass for stocking in established fishing ponds to create good fishing when existing florida bass do not provide good fishing. These assertive domesticated northerns are eating machines and will put anything in their mouth resulting in rapid growth. I am not convinced that the creation of an F1 hybrid (gorilla bass) has a genetic advantage in terms of growth, I think the "aggressiveness" everyone talks about is simply the domesticated northern showing its true colors "assertiveness". Pure florida bass do not grow faster than northern bass outside of florida, they simply live longer thus reaching larger sizes. Therefore I am unsure about the rapid growth claims being made about F1 hybrids or Gorilla Bass. Research done in texas comparing the growth of northern bass, F1 hybrids and Flordia Bass when grown on a commercial feed indicate that northern bass grew faster, followed by F1 hybrids with a northern female, F1 hybrids with a florida female, then pure florida bass. All four feed trained similiarly. Lets not get carried away folks. If you want good fishing develop a wide forage base and stock market size domesticated feed trained northern bass. You can't keep them off the hook and they will eat everything they can get in their mouth. Lets not let this turn into another Georgia Giant fiasco, if it hasn't already.

Cecil, I have a copy of the article. If you want a copy let me know and I will fax it to you.

Bill Duggan

Bill,

Please do. My fax # is (786) 549-0971

I will sent it tomorrow.

Cecil, could this type of bass survive the northern waters of Ohio and just to the north along the north shore of Lake Erie where I live. If I were able to get a winter hardy F1 strain it may be interesting. Thanks for your thoughts.

Rowly

I don't know where this guy came up with "Gorilla". The "Tiger bass" is what American Sportfih has starteed calling their F1. WHy b/c they have selected the most agressive northerns and the fast gorwing floridas for the last 15 years to create their F1's. Lots of folks now producing F1's and they wanted a term to describe theirs since it is simply not just any northern and florida mix. I just picked up 3800 last week and will be picking up 2800 tues. I have used them for 4 years and strongly suggest their stocking when wanting to grow big bass in the SE.

Cecil,

I have never seen a bass over 1 inch in total length eat a pellet. I assume with your post you have these pellet trained bass. How big do they get? How much do they eat? How do you keep them interested in pellets when they have fish to eat? Do bass convert feed to weight at the same ratio as fish (10 to 1)? If so wont it take 100 pounds of feed to get 10 bass to grow one pound. If so then you need to feed 500 pounds of feed per acre to get 50 bass to grow one pound per year and thats assuming the bass get all the feed put in the pond.

I'm not sold on the pellet bass, maybe you (or somebody) can change my mind. I dont see how it can be cost effective to grow bass on feed.

Shan,
You guy's are the pro's but I would think that it would take much less dry food/forage than any realatively heavy wet(?) live food to put the same amount of weight on a fish.
Ric

Shan, I asked this question of Bob Lusk some time back. We were discussing catfish. He said that fish convert feed differently than forage. Forage contains guts, fins, waste, bones, etc. that doesn't convert to anything usable to a predator. Thus, it takes less feed than forage to put weight on and thus growth. I would expect the same to be true for a pellet trained bass.

I have often thought about videotaping the bass that come to eat when we throw out the chow. They are a bit bigger than most of the other lmb we catch around the lake, so I would guess they benefit from the chow. At night you can see them in the shadows but they will not take the feed like they do during the daytime. Not sure why? If y'all are ever in the Charlotte area give me a call, be glad to show them off.

As far as F1's surviving in the north I do not know the answer to that. I know Florida's won't so I would think a hybrid would be less likely than a northern bass. Just a guess though and could be wrong.

Did anyone know that scientists have nw decided that Floridia bass are now considered not just a subspecies, but now a sepearate species? It seems they have decided this through major differences of DNA.

As far as conversion of feed vs. live forage, live forage has a lot of water in it. It takes a lot less dry feed to convert in to pounds. I believe I have read somewhere that the conversion of feed to bass weight may be as high as 2lbs to 1 lb of gain. In trout it can be even higher at one to one.

I feed my bass twice daily for the following reasons: I can have a higher density of bass per acre than if they fed on natural feed. Fish also grow faster on feed than if they are left to feed on natural feed. I can grow a 4 lb bass here in the north in 4 years after I get them as 5 to 8 inch fish vs. 7 to 8 years for a bass to reach that size in the north on natural feed. All fish species trained on feed will be several years ahead of fish left to fend on their own.

There is one disadvantate though. Your bass will need a complete diet (I only use a high protein low carb diet now put out by Mellick in PA). You will also be fertilizing your pond which may promote weed growth and a phytoplankton bloom which you many or may not want.

For those of you who don't know, you will have to purchase bass that are trained on feed. However they are not that difficult to find anymore as it is more economical to feed bass on pellets that to feed them live feed. What the grower does is crowd the bass in tank when they are about 2 inches long and the feed is all they get. Sometimes they will start with something more natural and wean the bass to the feed. Some bass do not accept the feed. But through generations the bass are more likely to accept the feed.

My fed bass also have high relative weights compared to the ones that do not. My bass on feed are built like footballs.

However, I'm still new at this and although I have over 100 bass from 1.5 to 4.5 pounds that feed on feed I don't know what the maximum size will be. There is some data that says max size may be limited, and other data that says fed bass do not overwinter as well as other bass. But I do know my fed bass also feed on bluegills as I have seen them. I'll keep you posted.

good point Dave,

thanks Cecil, keep us posted.

Cecil Baird1 & anybody else,

I know this is an old topic, but I'm very interested in getting any new information on this.

Thanks,

Muddy Fork,

You need to be more specific. What information do you need that hasn't been covered?

Sense I was replying to a topic that is over a year old I was looking for any new info like,
Has anybody got anymore info about the Tiger or Gorilla Bass and Cecil how's your lmb feeding doing?

I'm also waiting on a call from Berry at American Sport Fish right now.

I have a new one acre pond that's been stocked with 350 bg,150 re,100 c-cat,& 100 fathead last April that I feed along with creating the best habitat and I'm trying to find info about the best lmb I can stock for sport fishing.

Muddy Water,

My LMB feeding is going great for both larger fish and 300 6 to 9 inch largemouths I have spread out in three floating cages. I have even put in a few largemouths of the same size caught in the pond that are not pellet trained to see if they will learn to pellet feed from the other bass. I have seen this happen in the past and it is more likely for bass that are desended from bass that were pellet trained.

If anyone has never tried growing out juveniles in cages as supplemental fish to get them to sizes where they are too large to be eaten by the larger bass you are missing out. Pellet trained bass do very well in cages better than some other species.

Cecil,
I talked to Berry and got the info on their tiger bass, but I live in southern Indiana about 300 miles south of you so I was wandering where did you get your pellet trained northern lmb?

I get my bass from Laggis Fish Farms in Gobles Michigan. It's about an hour north of me here in northern Indiana.

If you go to the IDNR site they have a list of fish producers and haulers in Indiana. Unfortunately most of the producers down your way only raise fingerling size fish that are NOT feed trained and sold for initial stocking. But if they are small enough you maybe able to train them yourself if you crowd them into a cage. Make sure they are not longer than 2 inches.

I bought two Stren feeders in May and use Aquamax 600 feed. The catfish started eating the pellets immediately followed by the hybrid bluegills and then the bluegills. Nothing unusual so far. However, about two weeks later, a SMB started eating the pellets followed by other SMB and then LMB. There are about 50 LMB and SMB eating pellets now. None of these fish are under 12 inches and I'm reasonably sure that none had ever seen pellets before. The goldeyes are even eating pellets and I'm absolutely sure they'd never seen pellets before. What is even more unusual is that not all of the LMB in the same area will take pellets. None of the white bass will take pellets. I think all of these fish will eventually convert to pellets. These are adult fish learning from others.

However were these bass and Goldeye (what's that?) originally purchased from a hatchery or were they reproduced in the pond? Many bass are pellet trained now in hatcheries as it is more cost effective than feeding them live feed. And that stays imprinted on them. However as I said there are exceptions.

But what you are observing is entirely possible.

Cecil: TyW33 found this site. www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?genusname=Hiodon&speciesname=alosoides and it gives an excellent summary of this species. The Canadians call it the tarpon of the north and Winnepig smoked goldeye is considered one of the best eating fish ever.

Most people consider a game fish one that is easy to clean and cook. Fish that must be smoked, baked, pickled etc. to get rid of bones are considered rough fish. Goldeyes are boney.

I'm 99% sure the SMB were raised in a sand pit by a minnow dealer that fed them minnows, sticklebacks etc. They are very inquisitive and would readily take dead minnows on top of the water. They just took the pellets like they took dead minnows.

Most of the LMB were also raised by the same dealer in a sand pit. The rest came from Arkansas and I don't know how they were raised. This was in 2001. They didn't appear to be pellet raised but appeared to be copying the SMB.

It seems like the readiness to take dead minnows floating on the water was the key to how fast they converted to pellets. When I get a feeding frenzy going with dead minnows, I mix in some pellets. Fish accidently get a pellet and then seem to convert to them slowly.

The one species I thought would convert to pellets easily are rock bass. I'm going to put some in a cage with feed trained bluegills and see if I can get them started.

O.K. I know what species you are talking about now. If you would have put your location on your profile I would have known. I assumed you were farther south and this was one of those colloquiall regional names.

Keep us posted on your pellet training.

This is a good article about hybrid bass.

http://www.gameandfishmag.com/bass/gf_aa056703a/

I've decided to go with a F1 bass and will stock them as early as I can next year. That will give my bg,re,&fatheads a full year to get established and they're well on their way right now.