Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations genetic differences/potential?

Please pardon my uneducated sounding question...but hey, that's what we are here for, right.

What would be the difference in price and productivity...say five years down the road...

Pond #1: Stocked with pure Florida LMB, native, and F1 (I gather this is the recommended way to stock for trophy bass) along with the appropriate forage fish and channel cat. All purchased from a reputable fish hatchery with proven genetics, along with professional consultation on numbers of fish, a good fertilization and feeding plan, and proper harvest rates.

Pond #2: Stocked with the fish offered for free from the DNR...bass, bluegill, channel cat, and whatever else they recommend. The same profesional consultation with regards to fertilization, feeding, and harvesting would be followed.

JR :

Welcome to the PB forum. In order to address that you would have to provide what type of LMB DNR was providing and " whatever else they recommended" was. I assume you mean the only difference is the fish provided by DNR and all else is the same. Small fish are are a small cost when compared to years of work to redo starting with the wrong fish or plan. This is even more so if you include the cost of lime/fert. and food/feeder for several years before you find out you started off with the wrong fish or plan.

Pardon my uneducated answer...

What size "store bought" fish are you contemplating? Normally state-supplied "your taxes paid for 'em" (can't really say "free") fish are fingerlings of small size. Ohio DNR hasn't stocked private waters for some time; I believe many or most of their public water stockings are made with grain of rice sized babies. If that's what you could get from GA DNR, privately obtained larger stockers would probably put you a couple years (or more) farther ahead from the start.

Have you considered taking what you can get from DNR and adding/tweaking from a private hatchery? This might be one way to lower costs, stock with bass (and forage fish) of different genetic backgrounds, and still reach your ponds maximum 5 year potential.

I called the DNR today after I originally made this post. They offer bass, bluegill, redear, and channels. The bass are genetically mixed. Apparently they are no longer free either, but they still claim to be 1/3 to 1/2 the price of a commercial hatchery. I don't mind paying for a superior product, I was just curious as to what the difference would actually be and would it be noticable in a few years. I have always heard that pure Florida bass grow larger but slower...is this true? I want the best fish for the pond (trophy bass pond). I'm just curious what some of the experienced opinions are on this and why.

JR :

Many things effect growth rates. Water quality and fertility as well as forage base are critical to growing LMB. In southern waters Fla. LMB have a longer life span and female Fla. LMB grow bigger and faster after age 2. Before age 2 the data is mixed. Male Flas. do not grow larger and are proportionally smaller than northern males. F1s (crosses between the 2 ) are called intergrades and can also grow larger than northerns. The state records in the deep south states I am aware of are all Fla. or intergrades (Miss., Ga., La., Fla., Tex., Cal. ?Ala.).

The why is genetics. The differences are noticeable over time. You have not ask about catchability of Fla. LMB which can be a problem. Fla. LMB are harder to get to bite artificial baits than northerns. That is why some stock F1s. while others will stock a combo of all 3. See the link below.


http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001994;p=2

ewest:


Thanks for the info. I will check out the article you mentioned. I am not as concerned with the catchability of the two types, as long as they are not totally uncatchable. I have been a big bass addict for about 15 years now and usually either live bait fish with large shiners or use more natural artificials like rubber worms. This has seemed to work pretty well for the older, larger, and more lure-shy fish. I actually prefer the challenge of working for a large fish instead of catching a bunch of small ones. Georgia is full of farm ponds and I have fished a bunch of them. Most have shiners in them already (I know it is not a good idea to introduce them and never do). We catch the shiners from the pond we are fishing, put them on a hook, and drink a few cold ones while we wait. My idea of a relaxing day on the water:) I suppose threadfins or some other recommended forage fish would serve the same purpose in a pond without shiners already. I have no idea if the bass we usually catch around here are Florida, Northern, or hybrids of the two...I'm guessing hybrids more often than not. I am actually as intrigued by the idea of managing, feeding, and growing the bass as much as with catching them these days. Raising a trophy bass from a fingerling sounds like more of an accomplishment than getting one to bite! Most of the time I would probably be fishing for bluegills, redears, or catfish (speaking of which, what about blue cats in a pond? Good or bad?) with my sons and watching the bass grow...occasionally catching a few to get my fix. Anyway, I am getting long winded here. Which way would you go in terms of stocking?

I would make my decision based on several critical concepts.
First, decide HOW you want to stock the lake. Seek facts to help you determine how many of what size fish you choose to stock. Compare what you find to the availability of fish. The state may limit numbers of fish they allow you to have. I would want to know that, before making a committment.
Secondly, decide the TIMING of your stocking. Traditionally, state hatcheries tell you when the fish will be available. That may be a problem for you, depending on your goals and time frame.
Third, GENETICS will be very important. "Mixed" gene pools are typically due to sloppy hatchery keeping, or lack of care for the results. "Mixed" could mean any number of crosses and back crosses. I would want to know what I was stocking.
Last, and maybe more importantly, you will want counsel as the years go by. If you buy fish from a reputable hatchery or consultant, you are also buying their knowledge. Get the fish from the state and you get standard dialogue, without as much concern for your individual situation.

JR :

There are a lot of options/ways to manage a pond. Tell us about your situation. New pond or old, stocked or not, fertile or not , size , depth , plants or not , will you fert. and or feed , how many people fish it and how many fish will be taken out. There is a lot to consider. I would suggest that a very good resource would be the Pond Boss book on Trophy Bass. Call the PB office and get one. I would not recommend flathead or blue cats If my goal was "trying to raise trophy LMB" in a pond under 40 acres. Those cats are serious predators and when full grown can eat some large LMB , BG, RES , small mammals and a host of other things. The key here is your goals and how best to get there.

Thanks, guys.

That is correct. The hatchery here only delivers fish twice per year. It sounds like they decide how many of what type fish you get based on the size of the pond. A private hatchery would certainly provide more options in those areas. As for genetics, the guy I spoke to yesterday was a regular employee and not a biologist, so he really wasn't able to offer much in terms of knowledge about the genetics. He did mention that the bluegill and redear will hybridize to some extent, so you will get some pure representatives of each along with hybrids when you order these fish. Does this sound normal and does this also occur once they are stocked? The pond doesn't even exist yet. I am in the process of finding a contractor and getting the ball rolling. Obviously I am a little ways off from being ready to stock, but I want to have a plan ready when the time comes. I am trying to do my homework now. The pond will be app. 1.5 acres and will receive little fishing pressure, except for recommended harvest amounts. Bream fishing with the kids will constitute about 90% of the fishing, with occasional bass fishing for harvest and to check growth rates. I will fertilize and use supplemental feed as well. What are the chances of growing large bass in a pond this size? I want the best 1.5 acre pond I can get:)

J.R.
Just got in from desinging a pond kinda like you want for client in Macon, so just saw your post.

A few thoughts..The states fish are cheap price no doubt, but look at what you get. I have several clients buy the $30/acre rate and get the bluegill/redear from the state. Then they get more bluegill, fathead minoows, threadfin shad, grass carp and "our" bass from us.

The other thing as mentioned is timing. I have had several folks this winter call because they just finished pond and missed the states bluegill back in Jan.

What you get per acre is:
400 bluegill (less than 3 lbs/1,000)
100 redear sunfish
50 channel catfish
50 largemouth bass (less than 1 inch)
I think it is just $30.

I rec. for quality bass pond:
800 bluegill (5-10 lbs/1,000)
200 redear
1000 fathead minnows
50-75 F1 (or mix depending on goals) largmouth bass that are a true 2 inches

This would cost about $275-$300 so about 10 times as much as states fish. It is personal choice on goals. To me no brainer compared to cost of pond what I would do but to each his own. Many other things to stock depending on goals, like threadfin shad, crayfish, etc.

I hope this helps with some of your thoughts. The fact your here this early in the pond game is a HUGE advantage for you.

JR

I got my fish from Greg and have been pleased. You will find that the fish are among the cheapest parts of a pond.

Frank

Darn straight.

If properly stocked, they're not only the cheapest but the most pleasurable part of a pond.

If not properly stocked, the whole thing just ain't much fun.

Wow...I really thought it would cost much more than that. Three hundred bucks for quality fish is a drop in the pond (pardon the pun) compared to what it will cost to dig the thing. No question I will go that route.

Greg, you sound like just the person I need to help me get the pond started off on the right foot. You are not too far from here so I assume you would be able to work with me when the time comes. I found your website the other day but just now got around to reading most of it. I suppose the first thing I need is some help designing the pond to maximize its potential and, of course, digging it. Can you recommend any reputable contractors for creating the pond so we can stock it:)? I have plenty of experience fishing ponds but have never had one of my own, so I will certainly need some professional help to get me started.

J.R. I wish others thought fish were cheap. I have had folks call that spend 50K on a pond and complain about a bill for $2500 to stock it, go figure. Anyway where are you/pond located? Flip me an email if you like [email protected] thanks

I did not talk about genetics on last post and feel most important thing is proper forage base, management, etc. However we have no doubt had better growth since stokcing F1 bass as compared to fx bass in the past. We typically get them 1.5 to 3 lbs in October the year after stocked in June.