Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Call the ACoE? What would you do?

I have a 2-acre pond that I am in the process of having drained, dredged and rebuilt. I bought the property/pond almost 2 years ago and, after researching as much as I could, decided to go through the �proper channels� and get all of the necessary approvals. I had a representative from the USDA/NRCS look at the pond and tell me that I would need a draw down permit from the Pennsylvania Fish & Boat Commission (apparently in PA anything over 1 surface acre needs approval before it is drawn down) as well as an approval from the local NRCS for my �erosion & sediment control plan�. The NRCS was easy. I gave them more information than they could ask for and in turn they gave me quick approval. The PA Fish & Boat Commission, however, felt it necessary to stare at my simple 2-page application for more than a month before giving me permission to drain the pond.

Here�s the good part. The PA Fish & Boat�s approval letter said that I was required to contact the PA DEP Division of Dam Safety to make sure it does not need their approval. Since I knew it did not meet the criteria of needing approval I figured I would do everything by the book and call them. After a brief description of my project I was told that my project would be eligible for a waiver and not need any written approvals from them. HOWEVER, they told me I should contact the ACoE ( ) to see if they would need to review the project � namely the removal of the spoils when it was dredged. Never mind that I have NRCS�s blessing and also have 32 acres of property to deposit the spoils.

I have to think that calling the ACoE is the kiss of death. Anyone have any opinions on this? Do you think the guy from the PA DEP is just doing his job by the book by making his suggestion? I do not want this to turn into a horror story like Jersey�s experience.

RobA, being a Pennsylvanian myself, I would not call the ACofE. In my mind, there is no need to do so.

The PA DEP built me a pond back in '05, and I know they didn't go to the ACofE for anything.

It sounds like you've got the greenlight.

I am going out of my mind right now trying to think of how many ways I can possibly tell you in some convincing way to not involve them. If you try to follow the rules, you will not have a pond. Period. (Provable agrictlture excepted, and that's hard to do anymore, too.)

If you trust your NRCS agent, let them help you as much as they will. My NRCS agent likes the Corps about as much as I do, but couldn't help me but so much without involving them. So we shook hands and he wished me luck. I spoke with him a few weeks ago and we discussed how it is going. He wished me more luck.

At the World PondBoss Meeting held last month outside of Atlanta, no one there had ever had a problem with the "Just do it" method of pond construction. I was even more impressed that no one at the meeting even knew of anyone that had a problem. Considering the number of ponds that covers, well, you get it.

I asked my NRCS agent if he knew of anyone that had had a problem after the fact. He knew of two. Both were over 100 acres, and both affected the downstream owners of the creek without their permission. (Or knowledge I heard.)

Just remember, going to the Corps is a one-way ticket. You can't take it back.

I agree with both Sunil and Jersey. When it comes to the coe it is easier to ask for forgiveness than it is permission.

Thanks. I've calmed down now. The more I think about I agree with your comments. I am comfortable following the advice of the 2 NRCS representatives (who are local) and will be moving ahead without the ACoE.

This has been a dream of mine since I was a kid. I am very thankful that I even have the opportunity to own somethig like this. I want to thank everyone here who takes the time to post information and to repsond to my questions. As this project moves ahead I hope to post some information and pictures about my experience.

RobA,

Before the construction of my first pond (1995, 0.25 acres), I approached the NYSDEC about permits. Their response was that unless the pond was to contain 1,000,000 gallons, they didn't seem interested in (1) offering any assistance in its construction and (2) requiring permits.
Before the construction of my second pond (2004, 0.12 acres) I again approached the DEC only this time the procedure was a bit different.
Due to issues concerning wetlands, I had to submit a letter with a brief description of the project. I received a reply about two weeks later stating no permits from the DEC were necessary HOWEVER, the reply did note that I should contact my town officials AND the ACoE to see if any permits were required from those agencies.

If you want to get something done, don't involve the government.

The Corps is greatly overworked these days and unless your project results in off site problems with neighbors it is very unlikely they would even know about. Second the Corps lost a huge lawsuit in the midwest several years ago that says they can't regulate "isolated wetlands". So if your pond is not built by damaging up a stream they couldn't regulate if they wanted to. There is another court case, (Deloche Doctrine), they have lost that says they can't regulate excavtion in a wetland. Fill in a wetland without a permit and you go to jail, excavate a wetland without placing a fill there and you're ok. I wouldn't get a permit from them if your project was mine.

Here is the link to the case.

http://www.wetlands.com/pdf/99-1178.pdf

Two more cases pending now at U S Sp. Ct.