Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Question about Corps of Engineers, 404, and NRCS

I have been reading this site for about two months and have found answers to just about every question I have had, but absolutely nothing about the permits, Corps of Engineers, section 404, etc.

I have talked to several people at the Corps, and a few others down at the county (Walton County, Georgia). You will not be surprised to hear that I have gotten as many different answers as people I have spoken to. I want to be as legal as necessary in building this lake, but don't want to spend more on the permits than on the lake. Yesterday I spoke to the COE about "mitigation" credits and fees, not to mention fines and penalties, and it seems that they would really rather me not build this lake. My lake, it appears, is on what they call a "perinneal" stream. Even though it is not named, and you can easily step over it, they think I am going to upset the entire balance of nature by creating a lake that is not used primarily for livestock or agriculture.

I explained to them that every landowner in the area has a small pond or lake, and most are used for nothing more than looking at. They told me that the new rules went into effect in 2002.

I see on this site that many of you are currently having your ponds partially paid for by big brother. I'd be happy if they would just let me pay for my own. Surely someone here has had similar problems. Any input will be greatly appreciated. I am ready to start digging, but am now totally frustrated, and afraid to do anything. Thanks for your help.

Jersey,
Have you filed the form yet?

Brad B.

jersey I have been where you have been with my lake. I presently have a buddie who is building a couple of Very big lakes as well!!
I actually got my 404 permit for my lake and it took ALOT of prayer!!! You can not build ANY pond or lake at all with out a 404 permit. Man it is tough!! My buddy is using his for farm purposes and that is how he got his!!

I can tell you from experiance with dealing with the core, like I said, 'been there done that', and I got the Certificate. You here all kind of stories out there. Plane and simple you need a 404 permit to build any lake or pond.

You are right there is very little to no talk on the legal aspects to all this pond and lake talk. I mentioned it one time in a post.
What you are going to have to do create a farming situation on your property to justify your lake!!!
How much land do you own with the lake??
You might be in for a long haul here my friend...

I got a job doing the earthwork and getting rid of the old bridge where a new bridge was going to be built.
When the old bridge had been built the stream had been straightened, leaving the old stream channel doing a dog leg into a land owners field. The landowner wanted some of that filled, and I wanted to bury some concrete. I ran into the inspector and told him my plan. When I went to the pre-construction conference. I felt like a duck flying onto a pond full of hunters. Going to jail was mentioned.
The Corps is the enforcer of the Clean Water Act, and "nobody" in the other government agencies can go through them for you, nor will be willing to say whether you need a permit or not.
From what I studied they cover everything, streams, old channels, wetlands, marshy areas, etc. and they don't want any of it disturbed.
Wetlands will probably have to be built to replace any destroyed.
z

The corp is the enforcer? I find this ironic as at one time they damned ever river they could find.

I have not filed yet because I am still trying to figure what it is that they want me to do. I guess I don't have to tell you how frustrated I am about having to go through all of this to put a pond ON MY OWN #%$&* PROPERTY! I don't want any pigs or cows. I want a pond in my yard. Is this not America, home of the free?

OK, I'll get off the soap box. What is on my mind now is how did all of you guys, as well as many thousands of other people get their ponds / lakes built. There is no way that every pond owner went through what I am just starting to go through.

Thanks for the replys.

Jersey,

How about fish? Fish are considered livestock in my state. Put together a small scale plan to raise fish.

It must depend on where you are at or if you are damning up something or effecting a wetland. Where I'm at here in Indiana you can put ponds in until you are blue in the face with no problems as long as you don't dig out a wetland or damn anything. In fact, I hear farmers around here get away with draining wetlands all the time as long as they are under a certain acreage.

My pond is in Putnam county and was built in 2001, maybe things changed in 2002 but the soil and conservation people told me I did not have to go through the Corp because I have a watershed pond with no wetlands.
The county looked at me like I was crazy when I asked if I need any permits.
Things change rarely for the better.

Several months ago, and before the presidential election, I created a post talking about how GW Bush had a pond in Crawford TX (he was on an episode of Roland Martin).

The original intent of my post got lost in a political discussion and other PB members wanted to not talk politics on this wonderful site.

The point of my original post, which had nothing to do with politics, was that it's great news that the current president of the USA is into ponds.

Now is the time to lobby/write letters, etc. to get any changes through in laws and regulations regarding ponds etc. It is very powerful to have the president share a deep commitment to ponds.

Depending on the affiliations of your current state level politicians, and dependent on your persuasive powers or charisma, you may be able to get around things by contacting your US Senator's office. There is no doubt that a few thousand dollar contribution to one's re-election campaign can get some things done.

Just a thought for you to chew on. Good Luck.

http://www.nwo.usace.army.mil/html/od-rne/NEhome.html

The above link will hopefully get you into US Army Corp of Engineers web site in Omaha, NE. You may want to do a search from there to find the Office that serves your area.

I have had very little difficulty with the COE in obtaining permits in the past (Nebraska). I don't understand why they would have "Different" regulatory authority in other States? When completing a "404 Application", I have always classified proposed structures as Wildlife Ponds and have had no problems in Nebraska or Wyoming getting written permission to proceed with the project.

Generally it is difficult, but not impossible to obtain a permit if you are going to "place fill" in a wetland. Granted, you are planning on constructing a fill (Dam) across a wetland; however if you can show that the proposed fill area will be "mitigated" by the additional water area created by a dam, you should not have a problem.

You want to have your "ducks" lined up when you visit with these people. Complete the simple "404" permit application and send it along with an attached aerial photo of proposed project and any other pertinant information. It has been my experience that these folks are a lot like the IRS; not much for a sense of humor. Deal with them in a professional way and hopefully you will get your permission papers.

The old saying: " Its easier to get forgiveness than permission", does NOT apply here.

Good Luck,
Ed

Jersey
Listen I have gone what you have gone through!!Believe me I really have....I been fooling around with lakes and ponds in North East GA since 1999. If you knew and what I have done, you would KNOW, I knew what I am talking about....trust me....

The reason why other people build ponds and lakes and "seem to get away with it" is simply that, they don't tell any one!! "I won't tell if you won't tell"

I thought about this subject durin lunch to day and Sunil, you are absolutly correct!!! After reading your last post you just wrote. This is truly the STRONGEST post any one has EVER posted on this sight!!!!!!

As I thought durin lunch to day, I got really angry at all these Enviromentalist who seem to run every thing, and Conservastionist who stop progress and development. I think the goverment spends too much money and effort on these enviromental issues, really it is a waste!!!Guys like the CORE of engineers a waste of good gov. money.

I promise you, the Gobal warming has littel to do with what we are doing to the enviroment...

Now, said all that to say this, alot of you are going to read this and get UPSET at what I said about enviromental issues..and how the government is over doing. But, let the CORE mandate that all these wonderfull ponds we love some much, and spend so much time on, say they all need to have the dams busted out on them!!! We would be CRUSHED and very UPSET!!!!I'm telling you the CORE can do this if they "feel" it is nessasary, really!! Then where would we be in this industry, and Pond Boss it self!!!Lets say 90% of us on this sight lost our lakes and pond because we did not have a 404 permitt!!!! I know what some of you are saying..."mine is old and it is grandfatherd in" don't matter the CORE can do what they want, if they say bust the dam you bust the dam...

I agree hole heartedly with Sunil, we really need to be carfull and start making a voice here...

Jersy, you are going to have to do one of two things either come up with some farming plan, or go through the mitigation process!!! I know most of the people you have run into have done neither, but they are simply breaking the law dumb, a law in deed, but still the law. Do these people get caught?? most of the times no...I would bet that 90% of the people on this sight do not have a CORE 404 permit...but they go on any way..

"I won't tell if you won't tell"

This issue has 2 sides to it.
On the land owners side is freedom to do what they want like build a pond.
On the other side are conservationist and enviromentalist, people who really think they are trying to make things better by preserving nature.
The government is in the middle doing its balancing act, and there is a lot of money weighing in on the enviromentalist side.
z

A little more about my situation...

I am not near, in, beside, below, up against, close to, or around any thing that could be even mistaken for a "wetland". I would be, however, creating a beautiful place for ducks, fish, geese, frogs, snakes, fish, worms, crickets, fish, deer, fox, bats, and fish to live. Did I mention fish?

The "man" knows I am doing something because he stopped by to "visit" after I cleared the area around the creek. By the way, my creek is identified as intermittent on the USGS topo map, and as perineal on the USGS soils map. Hmmmm....

I am meeting an engineer tomorrow AM on the site. He says he can get me the required permits for $1-2k. I say thats a bargain, if he really can do it. Oh, did I mention that he was referred to me by the Corps?

I say...whatever...It's worth a couple grand just to make this problem go away.

Jersey, I feel for you.

It is a damn shame when the "man" shows up at your place.

Permits? I went through the local Soil & Water Conservation Dept. They came out & shot the pond lines & had their engineer check things out.
No permits needed unless the dam was over 25 ft & backed up more than 10 ac of water in which case I would have had to hire an engineer to design the dam.
I don't think I did anything ilegal. The US Soil & Water Conservation dept in my area have been ok'ing dams for ever! If that gov. body has been doing so illegally .... well I find it hard to believe they could get away with it for so long.
But, I'm not going to check!

This sounds suspiscious to me!

Ric Swaim,
When did you build your lake? Do you have livestock or agriculture? This makes a huge difference. Thanks.

Check with your local Department of Agriculture for a permit to build a pond to stop erosion. You may be pleasantly surprised and may get some of your taxes back in the form of assistance.

I built my 2 ac pond last summer, though it doesn't have water in it yet. I haven't finished with the structure & a few other desirables yet.
No. I don't have any sort of ag.

Thanks Ric.

dennisinponca,
Claiming that my lake would stop erosion may be a mistake because the only erosion that is happening now is from my clearing the area around the proposed lake. It used to be very heavily wooded.

I really do appreciate everyones suggestions.

Jersey,

I wish you the best in your project...and after reading these posts, am even more thankful to be in Texas. Those "free" taxes to "help" control errosion come with way too many strings attached. Good luck.

Jersey,

US Army Corps of Engineers (USACE) play book
is one of the books in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR).

Specifically '33 CFR parts 200 to end'.

You should be able to find this online.
If you do concentrate on sections around the 323 area.

It clearly states that the jurisdiction of the USACE is limited to "Waters of the United States" as defined as Navigable waters and streams/wetlands that are adjacent/immediately affect or impact upon Navigable waters.

The USACE likes to think that all flowing waters are eventually connected to navigable waters therefore all flowing waters no matter how small are "Waters of the United States". This is not the intention of the regs and is just silly because during a heavy rainstorm the rain gutter on my house could be considered "Waters of the United States".

This has more to do with "Power" than common sense and a fairly recent decision by the Supreme Court tried to remove this ambiguity.

Solid Waste Agency of Northern Cook County (SWANCC) v. US Army Corps of Engineers (USACE) ruled that "A body of water must be directly connected to navigable waters to be subject to Federal Wetlands jurisdiction".

I had a problem very similar to yours and complained to my Senator and Congressman. My Congressman launched a Congressional Inquiry into the matter.

I was in the process of digging my pond with permission from State, County, Town when the Feds gave me a 'Cease and Desist' order because I didnt go to them too.

My pond site is 1.5 miles away from the nearest charted stream and over 6 miles away from the nearest Navigable water. Once I rcvd permission from State & Local I never thought of contacting the Feds. Why should I ? my steam was so small you could step across it and it dries up in the summer time.

After a year and a half delay and assistance from my State & Local politicians I was told that if I stopped fighting the Feds jurisdiction they would gladly issue me the needed 404 permit. They wanted me out of their hair and I feel they felt like they didnt have a leg to stand on.

The Feds looked heavy handed but absolutely refused to give up any jurisdiction even when the CFRs and Supreme Court say otherwise.

The Feds tried to steamroll me but couldnt ignore the politicians.

I would not suggest lawyers because you really cant sue the Federal Govt unless you have more money and time than you know what to do with.
I think you will get more action from your political representatives.

My pond is going to be a Farm Pond and the Feds came across as denying me my right to farm. I think that is why all the politicians were so willing to listen to me. But even if yours is not a farm pond and does not impact upon Navigable waters then it is not "Waters of the United States". Right is right and the Feds shouldnt hinder your right to create a pond.

Good luck

HHO,
WOW! I am exactly now where you were then!

I can't escape the FEDs because the county said they would only rubber stamp my LAND DISTURBANCE PERMIT when I bring them the OK from either the ACoE or the NRCS. Since I have just recently decided to turn my property into farm land, I have contacted the NRCS. The guy I'm dealing with seems to sincerely want to help me. He says he has heard of stories like mine, but never one taken to this extreme. I hope to talk to him again tomorrow.

One thing you had going for you is that your stream wasn't on a map. My stream is a spring that starts about a mile or so upstream from me. It shows up as a dotted blue stream with no name. Apparrently this is a big deal to someone in D.C.

I am optimistic that I will make progress going through the NRCS. If I don't, well, let's just see how this goes.

Thanks a bunch for the feedback.

J