Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Soil questions Oklahoma Clay bottom Pond leaking or wicking?

New pond owner here.

Had a fishing pond constructed last August. I love in central Oklahoma and was told I had good clay to properly seal and hold water.

My pond is just shy of 3/4acre and supposed to be close 8' at deepest. We unexpectedly hit the water table at about that depth.

My question is, what should my expectation of amount of "wicking" or settling should I expect? I've seen the water go up and down and at most close to 2 1/2' deep.
I expected, based on other pond owners, my pond should have been close to full by now. I'm hoping it's not leaking, but if it is not happy with run around from pond construction company.

Appreciate any feedback.

Thanks!

If you hit the water table, and did not seal that off after you hit it, your pond will likely fluctuate with the water table. It will be a "water table" pond.

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=407777

^^^^ What he said. A water table pond isn't "sealed".

Completely agree with John.

If you excavate into the subsoil and reach the water table, you can then still choose to make either a "surface water" pond or a "groundwater" pond.

The water level in a groundwater pond will almost always be at the level of the groundwater table. The only common exception would be when you have a big rain event. If there is enough watershed area that directs SURFACE water into your pond, then it might become full. However, over a few hours or a few days, the higher water level in the pond will slowly go down and equilibrate to the level of the water table.

Most people in areas with lower water tables build a surface water pond. If you have enough surface area of your watershed, you can collect enough runoff water to keep your pond full. This type of pond MUST BE SEALED. This type of pond would then only lose water due to evaporation and a bit of leakage. The exception would be a long term drought. In that circumstance, the sealed, surface water pond can go dry.

My worthless, long distance guess? Heavy equipment construction is very difficult once you are working in wet material, with wet clay usually being the worst. Was your contractor working on a $/hour bid, or a fixed price for the job or fixed price for the amount of material excavated? If the latter two options, then he was going to rapidly start losing money as soon as you hit the water table. (This is speculation on my part!)

One option is to call your contractor. Ask if he sealed up the connection between the pond and the groundwater table. (This usually means using good clay from your location, and compacting it with specialty compaction equipment in 6" lifts.) If he did NOT do that, then you need to say your 2.5 foot deep groundwater pond is not acceptable.

Did you have a written contract? If you did, and your reading of the contract looks like the terms were not met, then it may be better to have a lawyer do the first contact with the contractor.

Sorry for the potential bad news. Also for the lack of solid advice. It is very difficult for people not on site during the job to give expert advice in this type of situation.

Good luck on getting this resolved in a favorable fashion and getting a chance to enjoy your new pond!

(Also agree with esshup. He was typing briefly while I was typing a book.)

Thank you for all the info. I was told they covered back with clay once realizing it hit. A good amount of water came up from the table. They only used a dozer and excavator for equipment. I will say after they did that it did all dry up, but I have no clue how good of a job they did compacting the clay back over it. My guess is not that great. I’m a bit irritated it’s all gone this way of course. I do have a contract and pretty generic terms and then basic line items with building of the pond and the windmill/aeration feature. They did dig a trench and packed the core on dam side at least. We got some rain over past couple days and has couple up a few inches or so. I’ve been putting stakes to mark levels and watching. I may have to talk to a lawyer, but my feeling is with how it all happened I shouldn’t be fully responsible for paying almost half the original cost to go back and have it sealed properly. Interested in others opinions on that.

Did the pond go all of the way dry after completion, but now it has 2.5' feet of water?

That sounds a little bit more encouraging! (But is not yet proof of sealing.)

I did Pond Geology 101 above. If you want to keep reading, I will go to the 201 class.

Some groundwater tables are very well tied to the surface soils and/or rock outcrops, and can rise or fall on relatively rapid time scales. My farm has very sand soil and the aquifer has many connections to the surface of the land, including a creek in my tiny valley. I have seen the water level go up in my ponds after it did NOT rain at the farm. However, there were heavy thunderstorms in the drainage basin of the creek. As the creek level rose, the local water table went up, and my ponds also went up due to the unsealed aquifer allowing more water into the ponds.

Some groundwater tables have fewer connections to the surface, and their fluctuations are generally measured over the period of years or decades. Those are more stable and you would see your pond go down during a multi-year drought or go up after several years of above average rainfall.

Finally, some groundwater tables are so stable that they are said to contain "fossil water". Generally, that is water in a basin where the rivers and lakes are perched above the water table and there are very few connections at all to the surface. That water usually stays in place until humans begin to remove it via deep water wells. (You might have that kind of water table on your property in central Oklahoma in your sedimentary rocks, but that is NOT the type of water table that they encountered excavating your pond.)

I only typed all of that to help you as an observer of your pond. If you have heavy rains on your property, your pond should start going up due to the surface water collecting in your pond. However, it could also be going up by the heavy rains causing the groundwater table to go up. Or even a combination of the two mechanisms.

It will probably be easier for you to determine which, by observing how the water level in your pond goes DOWN. If it goes down substantially after just a few days, then you are probably still connected to the local aquifer. If it goes down slowly over several weeks without rain, then all of your losses could be due to evaporation and you have a properly sealed pond. (If you really want to do this, then read how to set up an evaporation pan test. The water level in the pan should evaporate a little more rapidly than the water level in the pond. If your pond is dropping faster than the pan, then you have a leak or are tied to the aquifer.)

Complications: New ponds must saturate all of the pore spaces in the sub-soil material PLUS the water that is incorporated into the structures of the swelling clays. If your pond has not yet done that, then you could have a sealed pond, but the water level dropped subsequent to the rise after a rain due to that process.

Also, if your pond was "sealed" with clay, but it was poorly compacted, then it might hold water as tight as a bathtub when it is only 1/2 full. However, when it fills all of the way after a big rain, it could then leak back down to the 1/2 full level due to the increased hydrostatic pressure of the full water column.

Hopefully, that covers a lot of your "it depends" scenarios!

How much water shed drains into your new pond? What is the plant cover and what is the slope?

There is a chance some good rains can turn your hole into a pond. Unfortunately, you may need to join the many other members on Pond Boss that perform rain dances frequently for their ponds.

Very good info and appreciate it. I still have a lot to learn.

Yes, I believe it completely dried up. 2.5' is about the deepest it's been and if I had to guess it's been holding at least 12-18" for awhile. Until recently haven't had a ton of rain.

We are capturing run off pretty well where it runs across my property. I won't lie and pretend I know much about watershed, but when I input my address on mywaterway.epa.gov it says I'm part of a 12k acre watershed.

As far as slopes it was supposedly done correctly and fairly gentle but right now I don't know the exact slope.

The banks are still mostly just clay with some grass trying to spread. The rains have definitely cut channels all around. I have not actively planted anything and honestly that's due to my own ignorance on what I need and when. I have two shallow areas where I have installed pea gravel beds for future spawning areas and have a couple concrete pipes for habitat and a diffuser from windmill.

I've attached a recent photo if that's helpful. I actually also documented the entire process of the construction using a drone.

Best case scenario, I'm hoping it's my lack of patience and not an actual issue, however, expectation remains that it would have had more water by now.

Hopefully you'll get some rain and start to see waterlines improve. Until then, I'd contact the local conservation office and ask about seed. It may be a little late for anything but Rye or Triticale but any effort you make now to slow the erosion will pay big dividends in keeping the dirt you removed from the pond from getting back into the bottom. Both of those seeds are pretty inexpensive compared to the grass seed from the local big box store.

Straw wattles, RipRap and silt barriers might help too if you have a spot that gets lots of flow.

I'm a rookie in this new world too. Hardest thing about it has been checking a box as completed and then moving on to the next box to check it as completed too. Definitely a marathon vs a sprint in the pond world.

Good Luck on the project.

Go to your counties NRCS office and see if they can figure out how much watershed actually runs to your pond. It's a free service.

Very few people can get the proper compaction with a dozer and excavator.

BMO , I'm 85-100 miles west on I-40 from you, In last 8 months my 2 ponds have gone one direction , DOWN . If your pond was finished after July 1st , I'm amazed you have any water. Our spring rains haven't rolled in yet . When the big Tstorms roll in, rains of 3-6" , and provided you have the required water shed , then you'll have a better idea of where your pond is going . There have been some very localized storms around the state, but the big , pond filling spring rains have not started . I'm down 4' on two 2 acre ponds. Hang in there, rains will come , most years. God bless .

Thanks Fishingadventure.

We did get some decent rain here last night and it came up a few more inches.

I'm now trying figure out what is best plan of action for erosion control. Wondering if I should try putting a type of seed down now if not too late.

Also, I have a creak about 200-300ft away that I'm wondering if I could pump water from to pond. Obviously, I think there are some precautions as far as what comes from creek into pond.
With that, also read and wondering if correct that no issues with that legally as long as creek and pond on my property and part of same watershed, which it is.

Thanks for encouragement, so hard as a new pond owner to know what is expected or not. Just don't want any wasted time and I'm discovering I need a lot more knowledge on this stuff lol

Silt fencing is cheap and easy to install. That would give you some immediate help.

Get vegetative cover going ASAP also. Always good to meet your local NRCS agent as noted above. The agent can give advice on the best grass seed blend for your area and soil (if you are going with grass). They may even have seed for sale or a cost share program for erosion control.

Yes, it is a little late to plant because some of your grass will not be well-established when you get hot, dry, 100+ Oklahoma days this summer. So you will almost certainly need to overseed later. However, all of that eroded material is stealing depth from your pond! Any less than perfect vegetation you get going now is still an excellent "pond investment". You should be able to get some rye grass to sprout up quickly during May and help very soon.

Finally, pumping from the creek would be an excellent idea from an "engineering only" perspective. Better for you to find out sooner rather than later whether your pond holds water or needs more work.

The legal perspective is a little more dicey. There are both federal laws and state laws regarding pulling water from a creek. In Kansas, I could do it as a result of some exemptions that are granted within the legal framework. Don't know about OK. Might be another good question to ask your NRCS agent. You might also call the water regulatory body for the state and see if you get a knowledgeable person on the phone.

Pumping it full from the creek will help control erosion in the pond basin, since areas already covered with water won't allow gullies to form.

Many years ago, a neighbor at the time had a very deep pond dug using a huge excavator. I believe it was a ground water pond, as he went about 30 feet deep. I always thought it was a dangerous pond, the sides being so steep. It had almost no watershed, yet was almost always at least 2/3 full, as I recall. It is maybe 1/5 acre in surface area at the most.

Some grass is better than no grass. You want quick growing cheep seed. Baby it along until the "right planting weather" comes along for what you really want to plant. Rye is typically really low cost.

UPDATE: spoke to my local NRCS guy and appreciate that advice and he had a lot of good info.

He said without coming to do a field test that what he was looking at for my property I have about a 10 or so acre watershed. However, I know I do get a lot of water I'm capturing coming across.

He gave me some varieties of Bermudagrass seed to use in the area and advised I try to find some hay (bermuda if possible) to cover after I broadcast seed. Spoke to him about the creek and may be a good option, but I'll need to do a water quality test of course.

I've been given a quote on some pond sealer that from my own independent research along with contractor's reference seems like great stuff, but not cheap at all! Totally unexpected cost and most irritating aspect of this whole project.

Hey all! Been a couple months now and thought I'd give an update and see if more advice. Pond construction company ghosted me after charging me another $4k for sealant (Puddle Seal) to which they apparently have a contract with as sole seller for Oklahoma. Puddle seal won’t even respond to any of my questions. Well after last big rain pond filled to top and even overflowed a bit. However, the deepest spot I can find is 5 feet. Also, not entirely sure it’s still not leaking.

So, two part question now. Obviously not depth I asked for as I stated I needed at least 8’ for a bass pond, and thinking I may take legal action at this point. Anyone have experience with this?

Lastly, is 5’ even worth trying if holding to start trying to stock this fall?

Thanks!

I'm not an attorney, so I can' t answer the legal question. But as to the question if you should stock fish, I would say no. It is cheaper and faster to drain the pond and dig it dry. PLUS you can see how deep it is easily and so can the operator. Look for a product called Seek Leak (Seek Leek?). It's a 2 part polymer product.

I can't offer any legal advice either, but I'll give you a scenario that happened on our place. It's kind of similar to yours.

At our pond we did some drilling ahead of the purchase of the property as well as a perc test for the Septic system. The drill returned depths of topsoil, clay, and limestone. The perc test was done with a backhoe. Although it wasn't directly in the pond build it gave a good visual of what the soil looked like down to say 6-8'. So, we kinda knew going in what we were going to do ahead of the purchase/build.

The limestone was the kicker. We knew ahead of the build that there was rock in the area specifically from the drill test. There is an old rock quarry caddy corner from the property, and the neighbor to the south said he built his basement on rock. How deep it is....no idea. Knowing it was there basically set the max pond depth unless I wanted to blast it out of there (no cheap) for additional depth. We also knew that we needed to have a clay liner over the rock to make sure the pond was able to seal. Our max depth is 11-12'. We never hit rock. Depth was accomplished by both excavation and building the pond dam higher than adjacent soils.

Now for your case. The part that I see as similar is your underground water table. Much like my limestone this sets your bottom depth and if you don't want a ground water pond you must have a way to seal the bottom, in your case clay. If you didn't know it was there previously it's basically a hidden condition. Digging the pond deeper may not help if you can't seal the pond due to water table. It's either raise the dam height or live with the max allowable of the soils/water table.

Not a pro in this area, sounds like a tough scenario to work through.

Not sure I would start stocking ahead of the final pond build at this point, echoing esshup's thoughts.

Thanks for response. Pretty upset with company that they charged me almost another $5k to seal it with Puddle Seal, and that was to spread it myself, then completely ignored any further messages from me including Puddle Seal company saying they couldn't talk to me since this OK company had a contract with them as seller. Didn't make sense they couldn't answer technical or application questions for their own product.

Turns out co-owner I had worked everything out with is no longer there and being accused of starting another similarly named company (LLC vs Inc) and was taking money is story I got so no longer there and company won't make it right.

Predicament I'm in is if water table issue keeps me from going further is this the best and would it be a waste to drain, re-dig and "seal"? A lot of wasted time and money. Not to garner any pity but this is on top of me losing my job at end of June when my company closed, so been a rough couple months now.

Cool it until better times