Thanks ewest. I have read that thread and some of the others on that particular Golden Shiner disease.
However, I have never quite understood the ramifications for our pond management.
The disease appears to spread via vertical transmission (in this case, mother to offspring). However, it also does have an "age of the mother" component to the disease. For example, in your link they say, "Pleistophora infections may be reduced by removing golden shiner females from brood fish ponds after two years of age."
First off, if the disease ONLY spreads by vertical transmission, then I would think someone would develop a "pure supply" of GSH, and the regional fish suppliers that also sell GSH would rotenone their ponds and go back to a non-diseased supply. Either that is very hard, not profitable, or there is some amount of environmental horizontal transmission that also spreads the disease. (Of course, the only things I know about fish suppliers are what I have learned on Pond Boss.)
Secondly, while it is possible for suppliers to remove the females from their brood fish ponds after two years, that is certainly not possible in the main ponds of members. How to optimize Golden Shiner populations in that situation is the reason for my questions.
Let me see if I can re-phrase the questions such that I can correctly understand the answers.
Consider a forage fish species in a pond where the population collectively has 1,000,000 eggs develop to viable fry each year. To have a sustaining population of that forage fish, a significant number of the offspring must reach sexual maturity and they then reproduce.
I can see one type of pond where the journey from fry to mature adult is RESOURCE limited. I can see another type of pond where that same journey is PREDATOR limited.
In the first type of pond, if half of the female population (the older fish) has a disease that results in them not producing fry, then only 500,000 fry would develop each year. However, since the pond is resource limited, then almost the same number of fish would reach sexual maturity. Therefore, having a disease reduce the number of fry would have very little impact on creating a sustaining population of that species in the pond.
In the second type of pond, losing half of the starting number of fry would be catastrophic. If the predators can become sated, then some of that forage fish can survive to maturity. However, if the number of forage fish is reduced, then the predators lack sufficient forage and are never sated. The forage fish are ruthlessly hunted and probably extirpated in the pond.
I believe this somewhat matches what we see in the Golden Shiner posts on Pond Boss. Some owners are able to create self-sustaining populations and some cannot create that population despite significant efforts.
Questions for any of the experts that wish to expand this thread:
1.) Do you think the life cycle of GSH and the subsequent populations in our main ponds are primarily RESOURCE limited or PREDATOR limited?
2.) If resource limited, any suggestions for pond owners to help their GSH fry grow to maturity?
3.) If predator limited, any suggestions on cover/habitat etc. that would help evade predation? Another forage species that might fill the same "predator supply" niche such that it would be possible to create a synergy where both of the forage fish populations could be self-sustaining?
Finally, let's consider a situation where the GSH population is predator limited, and the only solution is to introduce more fry into the pond. Also assume a simple reproductive disease model. Assume GSH live three years. It takes one year to reach sexual maturity. Fish that spawn during Year 2 have viable eggs that mature to healthy fry. During Year 3, none of the females produce eggs.
If Theeck culls his wild-caught GSH and tries to only stock the smallest adults when caught in the spring (assume early Year 2 fish) and the largest fingerlings when caught in the fall (assume late Year 1 fish), would it be possible to create a self-sustaining population by optimizing the offspring production in that manner for the fixed number of GSH in the pond? (If the predators equally consume all of the adult GSH, then the owner is skewing the population younger and therefore producing more fry.)
If not, would his original breeding plan of using tanks and grow out pools work if he mimicked the commercial growers and regularly removed the broodstock and introduced a ton of fingerlings every fall as the predator consumption is starting to slow? That would give him maximum production in his main pond, plus maximum production from his brood pond.
Sorry for the exceedingly long post. Just trying to generate multiple paths of additional discussion!
I have gotten my GSH from one supplier for 10+ years. Even 10"+ fish seem to be spawning. No way to ID if the spawn from any particular fish is successful, but if the habitat is there, there will be a reproducing population in the pond. Many pond owners don't understand that different fish need different spawning habitat.
I was told today when talking to a person about their pond and spawing habitat, that they put plenty of pea gravel in the pond. RES/YP/GSH/FHM/SMB pond.
I got a blank stare when I asked if they put any habitat in the pond for the YP/SMB/FHM/GSH to spawn on.
I was told today when talking to a person about their pond and spawing habitat, that they put plenty of pea gravel in the pond. RES/YP/GSH/FHM/SMB pond.
I got a blank stare when I asked if they put any habitat in the pond for the YP/SMB/FHM/GSH to spawn on.
Those fish are also outside of my usual experience. Mostly used to LMB/BG ponds.
I have not stocked any SMB, but want to add some in the future. However, after reading several SMB threads (over YEARS) that included pics of spawning beds it finally dawned on me that my bed material calibration was WAY off!
Knowing a little bit is frequently more damaging than knowing nothing - if you at least have the smarts to pursue expert guidance when you know nothing.
Rod - I'm gonna think outloud a bit. If I'm off base I hope somebody will chime in to correct me.
On your questions above I'm curious if GSH are considered the only forage in the pond? I would assume there is a carrying capacity of forage for the pond vs predators. With too many mouths to feed or too many places to hide there's likely no way to balance good relative weights. Either the predators eat themselves out of house and home or they spend too much energy trying to feed.
Part of my forage plan did involve GSH (because Threadfins and NE Kansas and the size of the pond a 1.5acres aren't a good fit). While the GSH and Threadfins aren't the same, it was the closest I could come to for a bigger bite and sustainable food source. My stocking plan involved getting these started before LMB or YP. I wanted these fish to be larger than LMB or YP could consume when they hit the pond. Thus, hoping for spawns which could feed and grow our predator stocking.
This was also part of the reasoning for our early stocking of YP (pre-spawn this spring) and tilapia as well....and will be used with crawfish this fall.
Ultimately, giving multiple forage options to the predators in the pond vs "The forage fish are ruthlessly hunted and probably extirpated in the pond". As one wanes and is still available in smaller numbers one of the other options is more readily available shifting predation to the more common available food source - or at least that's my hope.
I wonder if trying to establish a new forage species in a pond would be more successful if some focused effort was placed ahead of the stocking into removing some predators. I suspect that if smaller GSH are used more of the predators will be able to hone in on them and require a larger stocking quantity.....If larger brood stock is used there's a chance that they won't spawn. In either case I think decreasing the ability to be eaten by reducing predators in the pond helps.
Not quite ready to put the "All you can eat" buffet sign out yet....but it's coming! Pic of the recent hatches in to the pond from this evening. It was amazing to see all those baby fish pushing floating pellets around in the shallows. Yep....feed trained 3/4" fry.....it's a great thing!
In your 6/4/17 updates, were you ever able to get fry from your purchased GSH?
Or did you have problems raising the fry to maturity?
Or bears tore open your feeder, or other "non fish" problems ruined your plans?
Your third quess was pretty much right on. My first problem was the water flowing into the tank came from an underground spring and was only peaking at about 60 degrees. I added a small heater but it burned out after a week without any noticeable increase in temperature (I guess it was too small). Then bears started raiding the feeder breaking it. Finally, a bear, while messing with the feeder, detached the water hose and all the fish died from low oxygen. I life an hour and a half away from the cabin where we have the pond. I only get there on weekends. When a problem arises, I don't know about it right away. I ended up abandoning the plan and putting a handful of trout in instead.
I recently started thinking about trying it with a couple pounds of fatheads. I like to fish for crappie and there are no bait shops with fatheads withing at least an hour drive. If they spawned, that would be a bonus. I'm sure bears could be a problem again but I have a duck feeder down by the pond (about 200 yards away from the tank) that I keep full of corn or scratch grains for the 3 pet ducks we have on the pond. The bears haven't touched it this year. I think the alternative food source away from the cabin might keep the bears down by the pond and away from the tank. Even if they destroy the fish feeder at the tank, I think I can probably feed them enough on weekends to get them through the week if I keep the population low. Maybe I could put a mosquito zapper above the tank so they can feed on the insects that get zapped and fall during the week (just an idea). I have an electric fence charger too but that starts getting a bit more involved than I really want to get for fatheads.
I am commenting a lot in your thread because I like all of the "alternative" methods you are trying!
I believe MUCH less energy is required to run a small aeration unit compared to a heating unit. Perhaps excavate a small side pond for FHM and fill it with spring water, then shut the connector and let it warm. Running a very small aerator would probably be enough to keep your FHMs alive, even during the dog days of summer. Maybe do some tiny water exchanges as needed to maintain your water quality?
Another option is a black fly larva feeder. (There are some old posts on the topic.) Basically putting rotting meat in a mesh above the pond. The maggots fall through and feed the fish a lot of protein. (Would the bears eat carrion?) I think that would be more food than a mosquito zapper? However, you could always choose both! (I think there have been some posts on Pond Boss where people have just put a light on their dock near the water surface and the fish congregate at night to eat all of the bugs that hit the water.)
Also, I think(?) a FHM pond needs to be in sunlight to start the bottom of the food chain for them.
Finally, I think your best bet is to train the bears to perform pond management! Explain to them that if they help raise your trout from fingerlings to hefty adults, they you will split the trout harvest with them 50/50.
I post all kinds of tangential questions ... just to solicit some "out loud" thinking. Please keep 'em coming!
Yep, I agree with you that multiple forage sources are much better. My though experiment about only GSH was just to simplify the discussion and THEN see how any knowledge gained could be applied to real world complicated ponds with multiple forage options and multiple predators.
GSH can work well and be established. Best to start them just after the FH are going good. Be sure to have a good plankton base and the right spawning material (matts are good ). The 250000 fry method also works. Then add BG or other sunfish. Best advice if using LMB is to be sure forage base is about 4 times what is suggested.
I am commenting a lot in your thread because I like all of the "alternative" methods you are trying!
I believe MUCH less energy is required to run a small aeration unit compared to a heating unit. Perhaps excavate a small side pond for FHM and fill it with spring water, then shut the connector and let it warm. Running a very small aerator would probably be enough to keep your FHMs alive, even during the dog days of summer. Maybe do some tiny water exchanges as needed to maintain your water quality?
Another option is a black fly larva feeder. (There are some old posts on the topic.) Basically putting rotting meat in a mesh above the pond. The maggots fall through and feed the fish a lot of protein. (Would the bears eat carrion?) I think that would be more food than a mosquito zapper? However, you could always choose both! (I think there have been some posts on Pond Boss where people have just put a light on their dock near the water surface and the fish congregate at night to eat all of the bugs that hit the water.)
Also, I think(?) a FHM pond needs to be in sunlight to start the bottom of the food chain for them.
Finally, I think your best bet is to train the bears to perform pond management! Explain to them that if they help raise your trout from fingerlings to hefty adults, they you will split the trout harvest with them 50/50.
Thanks Rod, that's a good point about the aerator. That's a far better idea for raising the water temperature. I should have thought of that but I think I was thinking too much about keeping the water clean (free of ammonia, etc.) but that could be accomplished with a low flow or occasional exchange (maybe some chemical treatment like Finer Shiner would help too). I may try that meat idea too. I actually did something similar in the past by leaving a dead bluegill on a brick above the water line. It's funny, I thought I was alone in my crazy ideas.
I see you are in Kansas. I am in PA but I am always looking at real estate in Kansas (despite not having any money). I am planning to take my Springer out there to chase pheasants and quail in the next year or two. We used to have them here when I was a kid but now we only have stocked birds. We still have some ruffed grouse but the numbers around me have been decimated - supposedly by West Nile Virus but there are habitat issues too. Fortunately, I bought a hunting/fishing cabin in Vermont years ago and the grouse hunting up there is still decent.
I had to be up near the cabin on business this morning so I stopped by quickly afterwards to check out the pond. There was a great blue heron there that has been hanging around a lot. I'm sure he has taken some of the shiners. Anyway, I saw some clusters of slime on the vegetation and tree branches that looked to be some kind of eggs but I have no idea what kind. I did locate a school of shiners and filmed them with my phone. I threw some chick starter to them and got video of them eating it. It's not the best footage because it was windy and the shiners kick up mud from the bottom when they thrash around after the food. The shiners have been in there for weeks and look to be in good shape. Here's the clip:
I had to be up near the cabin on business this morning so I stopped by quickly afterwards to check out the pond. There was a great blue heron there that has been hanging around a lot. I'm sure he has taken some of the shiners. Anyway, I saw some clusters of slime on the vegetation and tree branches that looked to be some kind of eggs but I have no idea what kind. I did locate a school of shiners and filmed them with my phone. I threw some chick starter to them and got video of them eating it. It's not the best footage because it was windy and the shiners kick up mud from the bottom when they thrash around after the food. The shiners have been in there for weeks and look to be in good shape. Here's the clip:
I've never seen feathers on a fish. Do the fish a favor and use good fish food, they will grow a lot faster and your pond will benefit from it. Get 10# shipped to you to try. https://optimalfishfood.com/product/optimal-starter-4/
It's the same reason why you don't feed range cubes to your dog, or that you don't have rabbit pellets on your dinner plate. There are feeds formulated specifically for the animal that you are feeding and they grow much better on them.
Good advice, I'm sure. I don't feed the fish in the pond typically but I have pet ducks there. It was the only thing I had handy. Maybe I will order some of the linked food, though, for the tank where I want to raise fatheads. Thanks.
Any chance you have FHM??? Because those are not GSH...
Nope, these are about 5.5" long. Fatheads don't get that big. I am almost positive they are GSH. I'll defer to esshup since he is an expert but I am almost sure these are shiners.
I agree with what's in the net. The fish feeding in the video don't swim like shiners and I "think" Scott will agree with me, but I'll refrain from replying as I'm not there.
I threw a line with a size 12 hook to check over the weekend and the fish are shiners in the video. Maybe they look weird because I lured them into shallow water with the feed. I got small trout pellets and threw them out this weekend and they were eating them. It seems the shiners in our pond like to cruise around the open water. I keep seeing them in schools near the surface in 4-6' of water.
I also put a pound of fatheads in the pond and, more significantly, put 2 pounds of fatheads in the 700-gallon stock tank. I set up a bug zapper over it and put raw hamburger on a piece of wood a couple inches above the water line to draw flies. I left the water flowing in for now but it is around 59 degrees in the tank. I might switch to an aerator this weekend. I tried feeding the fatheads but they were not interested. They were all bunched up at the bottom right below the water intake and seemed to be hiding in the muck at the bottom. Maybe this is what they normally do or maybe the temps affected this. I hope to be up there tomorrow so I can see how they are doing. I know of 2 shallow ponds (part of a small marsh set back from a river) on public ground nearby that don't appear to hold any fish - just water bugs and tadpoles. I may dump some in and see if the can establish a population. It's public so I could always go back and trap them if it works.
Messing around, I caught a 19" bass in the pond. I probably should have removed it but it grew that big without shiners so I put him back hoping he would only eat so many before the shiners spawn (being optimistic). The bass is pictured next to size 12 boots.
There were also some kind of eggs or slime attached to plants in the water but I suspect it might be from red spotted newts. Any ideas on the slime? Thanks for all the help.
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