Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Renovating a Pond or Lake? Pond leaks - Need advice

Looks like a great forum and I'm anxious to hear your suggestions to my problem. I'll try to summarize what I know short and sweet.

My pond is about 15 years old and should be about 1.5 acres. I've owned it for 4 years.

Was built to be 30 feet deep, deeper than designer wanted it to be, he walked away from it since his directions were not being followed.

It is usually 10 to 15 feet low and at this low point, stops or greatly slows in leaking rate.

I was told the builder hit a spring while building it. I know they tried to patch over it but not sure what was done.

I have since spoke with the designer and he has checked the backside of the dam. He thinks the dam is good and didn't find a leak behind it on the dry side. However, there is water that surfaces behind the dam 80 yards or so away. I know there was historically a spring there so I don't know if it's from the pond or just the old spring.

The designer (USDA pond guy) suggested as a fix, to drain it and have 3 6" layers of clay knitted together with a sheepsfoot roller, over the entire bottom of the pond (everywhere that water would be).

I'm finally to a point where I have a little $$ and want to have it fixed. But I'm on a budget. I got one bid at $10,000. I can't spend this much on it so I'm planning to hire someone to work on it by the hour.

I'm planning to have it pumped out then re-inspected to hopefully identify the area that leaks. If it is found, I'd then just hire someone to patch this area. If we can't find the leak, then I guess I'd have him line the bottom as suggested.

Here are my questions:

How inappropriate is it to just have a dozer do the work, without the sheepsfoot to knit the layers together?

Could the current level be at the water table, and the pumping out of the pond be ineffective?

The surrounding soil is clay. How much time would it take to move enough clay and pack it with a D8 dozer, to cover 1-2 acres?

Since there are some unknowns and no guarantees, how big of a gamble is it to forge ahead on this project (i.e. what is the success rate?)

Although I know little from experience, I've read on here several times that a dozer is not adequate for compacting. A sheepsfoot roller really is the way to do it right. The pros will chime in shortly.

I'm not a pro, but I've seen a few ponds.

The answer to the first question is "very". A tracked machine won't put down the necessary pounds per square inch that's required to knit and compact the layers of clay.

2nd question. It'w very possible that the water level in the pond is at the water level in the ground. It's also possible that the leak is above where the water level drops, and once it's dropped past where the leak is it won't leak out any more water. I dug my pond in sandy soil, and had water continually dumping into the pond because I had dug past the water table. I was able to keep ahead of the water coming into the pond with a 15,000 gph pump. So, yes, you can pump out faster than the water comes in.

3rd question - forever. You cannot compact the soil enough with a dozer. If you're asking how long it'd take to do the work with the dozer pulling a sheepsfoot, I can't answer that. It all depends on the slope of the pond, how dry you can get it, and the skill level of the operator.

The last question would be better answered by the pond designer. He's seen the type of soil and the conditions that pertain to that particular BOW. If you had good soil, and can get the proper compaction, I'd say the chances of it working out for you are very good if the whole bottom (area that would be under water) was lined and compacted. I wouldn't put much faith in patching a leaky spot. How do they know it's only one spot? I'd feel better with four (4) 6" lifts of clay compacted and knitted together.

Now for a question of my own. Why wasn't the design of the pond followed in the first place?

If it was my pond, and I had a budget to work with, I'd make durn sure that it was done right the first time because if it still leaks after the "patch", then how much more would it cost me to drain it again, have the equipment brought back out, and possibly re-seeding the torn up area again to keep erosion to a minimum? I think I'd be money ahead to do it right and do it once.

Thanks for the quick feedback guys. I just wanted to clarify a couple things. I've asked the same thing myself. It's had several owners since the pond was built and I wasn't able to track down the owner that had the pond put in. I was told he just had it in his head to have a pond that was 30' deep even though he was advised against it.

To clarify one of my questions: How long would it take to move the 18" of clay from the the side of the pond and layer the bottom with it? What I was asking here is just that; can this be done in a couple days, weeks, etc... assuming an operator experienced with the equipment and building ponds.

To add another, how is the knitting normally done. Is 6" put down, then equipment switched from dozer to roller, and on and on?

I don't know enough to give you a time estimate. It will all depend on how sloppy the bottom of the pond is. I wish Tim Pinny (Oklahoma), Mike Otto (Texas) or some of the other dirt guys would see this and chime in. Both of those guys have their own dirt moving business and work with ponds. Otto is one of the founders of this forum.

Clay has to have a certain consistency (i.e. water content) to properly compact. Too wet or too dry and it won't work as well.

You are right about the procedure. Spread out 6" of clay, switch to a sheepsfoot roller and roll the snot out of it. It's properly compacted when it starts to walk up and out of the dirt on its own. Switch, equipment, lay down another 6" and go at it again.

One of the guys I talked to has a scraper and a couple of dozers. He was thinking the scraper would do a pretty good job of packing -comparable to a sheep's foot. Is this accurate? Would this also do a quick job of moving clay from point A to B? The full area of the pond is a couple acres. Is this enough space for a scraper to move around efficiently? I don't know much about scrapers and have no idea what model/size the one he has is.

That's a question that would be better answered by an expert pond builder. I've heard that moving dirt less than 50 yds is quickest with a dozer. I've never heard of a pond builder saying that they could pack it well enough with a scraper tho. I believe the scraper just moves the dirt and the sheepsfoot is used to make multiple passes to get each layer truly knitted together with the layer beneath it.

Esshup is right it depends if you have to move clay from any distance. The efficiency drops alot after 50 yds. Also a sheepfoot packer will do 250+ psi packing pressure and our pull scraper is rated at 36 psi ground pressure. They are built to float not pack.
If the equipment and man power are available you can pack areas right behind the dozer and the project wouldn't take very long.

You can pack the dam with a scraper if you know what you are doing. We have built several with a scraper. They want to you overbuild the dam to account for shrinkage. 15% for a dozer and like 7-8% for a scraper.

If you drive keep driving over the dam with a loaded scraper it would pack it. A loaded scraper weighs a lot more than an empty one.

The scraper would be just as efficient or more efficient than a dozer. We built our latest dam with three scrapers and a dozer. It is a fairly large being 180' wide at the bottom and it is 20' wide at the top. This dam was built over the course of four days. The scrapers packed the dirt nicely but the dirt was a red clay that packs well.

The pond is now pretty much drained. Due to the size of the dam we decided to pump it out with a large PTO driven pump � just a tad left to finish with a 3" pump. As you may have guessed, no obvious leak holes jumped out. Several test holes were dug in the area around the pond to look at the dirt. Basically it is just OK, not great and not terrible. The local pond guru calls it adequate but the equipment guy is skeptical about its quality for a good seal.

I have some recommendations on methods to seal the pond from the local pond guru. One is to use the local dirt and line the bottom of the pond with 4 6� lifts each packed with a sheepsfoot. The remaining sides should be disked up and packed with the sheepsfoot.

An additional recommendation would be to add soda ash at 15 lbs/100 sq ft to each lift on the bottom of the pond. This would end up to 5-6 tons of soda ash mixed in. I was not informed of pricing or a source of soda ash but was told it would leave the water very cloudy for several years.

A final option to seal the pond was to use fly ash at 2 tons per acre. There is a coal burning power plant close by that could be a source for this but I have no idea about the cost or whether this is a good idea. I assume there may be some toxins in the fly ash.

So now I am asking for additional comments on my situation. One thing I have to keep in mind when making my decision is cost. I know there are no guarantees, but I�d like to give myself the best chance of getting a good seal for less than $5K. One thought I had was to use the soda ash or bentonite in the area we suspect it to be leaking. This would be the area around the pond where it usually stops leaking (about where the water line usually is). I would still do some work on the other areas, but focus the addition of soil amendments in this area.

Any comments on price, source or experience using soda ash or fly ash?
Would the addition of bentonite be a better option?
What would you do with my budget and the options provided?

So, was there ever a resolution to your leak? Just curious.