Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose RES Hybrids

My RESxGSF hybrids looked a lot like these, but the gape isn't there for these to be hybrids - is it? I can't believe we can't seem to wrestle up some pix of RESxGSF hybrids...I guess I'm going to have to catch these guys this Spring and post the pics.

Yeah, you're right. That got by me. But I don't think they're pumpkinseeds either.

Those are pumpkinseeds. What about them makes you think they aren't? Remember there is a lot of seasonal and regional variance in coloration among all sunfish species including PS.

One I caught this past summer in NC.

Yeah, you're right Travis. Upon further review...

I don't think there is any GSF in those two fish, no white margins on the tail or anterior edge of the dorsal/anal fins. I think they're PSK/RES cross. I say cross because of the vertical dark banding that is apparent in the pics.

I would guess PS. I don't see anything else there.

From the picture, I don't think the top fish is a a pure PS, plus the coloration is not what I typcially see in PS which does not really mean much due to the wide variation in fish coloration.

I base my comment on the length of the pectoral fins. The pectoral fin should be the same length for a male and female of the same species of Lepomis. Note the pectoral of bottom fish & CJ's PS reaches past the posterior pelvic fin and to or just about to the base of the anal fin in both fish. As I look a second and third time, more closely at the PS fins, I think the pectoral fin, if laid straight back, will actually reach the base of the anal fin. Look closely for the fine pointed pectoral fin tip in both of the the PS. Whereas the back tip of the pectoral of top fish does not quite reach the pelvic tip or go past the posterior pelvic and in no way comes close to the base of the anal fin. This can be hard to measure on a picture but in this case it is fairly clear at least to me - maybe not to all.

Also notice that the back tip of the pelvic fin reaches within about or at least 1/4" of the base of the anal fin in both of what I am calling PS. But in the top fish this distance is at least 1/2"-3/4" or more. This fin distance feature is a consistant feature for individuals of the same species and a good indication that the two with different fin rations are different species. Or the top fish could be a hybrid.

Since the pectoral fin is not as long as it should be in the top fish and coloration is not what I normally see in a pure PS I conclude it is some sort of hybrid because it does have some PS (or maybe RES) coloration and features.

Bill look at the different features of these 2 positively id PS from Wisc Fish. What do you see as it relates to the pics above ?Pics from Wisc Fish.

The pectorial back delicate, narrow tip or end is very hard to see in the bottom pic, but clearer in the top pic. In top fish if fin is laid straight back it will definately reach beyond the pelvic fin and quite close to or to the first spine of the anal fin. If the pectoral fin was well colored on 2nd fish as 1st fish, I think pectoral fins of both fish in the two Lyon's pics would have the same measurement ratios.

Notice in the top fish, the collapsed pelvic fin reaches close and within abt 1/4" of the anal fin base (not a 1/2"-3/4" distance) - similar to earlier pics of what I called PS.

Note I don't think one can use this pectoral fin feature to separate PS and RES. Both have very long pectoral fins. Actually I think the RES pectorial fin is longer in RES compared to PS. Not sure about the distance between the pelvic fin and anal base for RES. BG also have relatvely long pectorial fins but typically not quite as long as RES or PS.

All this stuff can be hard to see in pictures. It is easier to see and measure with a fish in your hand.

IMO ewest or someone else also with talent should add one of the above fresh/live specimen PS pics to the PS section of the PBoss Archive thread of Sunfishes:
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92482#Post92482.
Both of the PS in Lyon's pics are dying or dead due to the posterior margin, vertical discoloration of the caudal fin.

As I look at both PS pics of Omaha and CJ, I think Omaha's fish is a female and CJ's is a male - My $0.02

Don't know Burger. By the time I get them they are dead so I can't ask them, "Who's your daddy?"

Now I dont care what side of the political spectrum you are on. "that's funny"!

Bill - as requested. See if it is what you want.

I think this is a RES X BG

Thanks for sharing Stump...I'm looking for a little orange or red on the ocular tab - should it be there to indicate RES genes? Anyone?

Generally, any evidence of a non-black, thin postmarginal gill flap membrane will positively indicate "extra" or added genetics from something other than bluegill. There is probably a point of hybrid genetic influence (No. of Chromosomes or amount of DNA) where the back margin of the gill flap goes from pure black in pure BG to someting other than black. I suppose a perfectly pure bluegill looking fish could have a "hint" non-BG genetics that is not outwardly apparent. It probably all depends. There are a few sunfish species (longear & redbreast for two) that also have a pure black gill flap, but these are typically rare in ponds.

orange or red on the ocular tab - should it be there to indicate RES genes? Anyone?
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Not necessarily. See the pic near the first of this thread.

Well, I guess it might all depend on the more dominant gene. They don't call them RES for nothin'!

Kinda hard to see the ear tab on this one Eric.....

"evidence of a non-black, thin postmarginal gill flap membrane will positively indicate "extra" or added genetics from something other than bluegill"

Thanks Bill and Eric - this is helpful for me to bear in mind in the future.

It had red on it, you just can't see it in the pic. I caught several of these and pure BG and RES off of the same beds last year.

Cool stumpy...you have natural hybrids! I am trying to accomplish the same - care to share details on your pond?

I think the easiest way to produce natural hybrids besides putting all males of one species and all females of another species together is through nest crowding. If your pond has very minimal spawning habitat for sunfish, all the sunfish in your pond will be competing for that much less real estate. This can cause nests to be built that much closer together. IME with RES, they tend to nest on the edge of BG nest colonies. If they get jammed that much closer together, some milt from a male is going to drift over the eggs of a different species of sunfish. There are other factors involved as well, more turbid conditions can lead to mates having improper identification being one of them.

The odds against natural hybridization of different species are staggering when you figure that 99.9% of the eggs laid never make it to maturity. But, somehow, a few of them seem to make it.

Do the RES x GSF act different and feed on other items?

Just wondering if they would be easier to catch or how large these would get?

Do they act differently than what?


Easier to catch than what? You could expect this type of hybrid to reach 2 pounds+ but 1 pound max would be far more reasonable.