Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Taking over an old pond -- need help

Great Site. I have been reading for the last few days. I work at a quarry near Xenia Ohio. We have a small pond(approx 3 acres) at work that is used for employees to fish at. It has been there since the 1950's and has been managed at different levels throughout the years. Over the last several years it has been used more or less as an aquarium. What I mean by that is , every spring the guy in charge of ordering the fish would go around and ask the guys what they would like to catch and that is what would go in that year. This resulted in trout every year and sporadic stockings of perch, bass, catfish, hybrid bluegill and a variety of different feeder fish, with little thought to the long term ecosystem of the lake as a whole. As a result, the fishing as a whole has dropped off. We now have a large population of crappie, bass, and bluegill but not a lot of size on any of them. Last year a group of us decided to form a fishing committee to try to come up with some long term goals for the pond. The first thing we did was fix a leaking spillway that was causing large fluctuations in water depth. the only fish we put in last year was trout. We have a limited budget but would like to start a plan to insure the long term viability of the fishery. Any help you could provide would be appreciated.

A little more info that may or may not be helpful. The guys who fish this pond range in age from 8 to 80. A few fish 4-5 days a week, a few only once a year, with most falling somewhere in the middle. I'd say if you averaged it out through the whole summer it would probably be 2 guys fishing every day for about 4 hours.

The most popular fishing is LMB followed closely by Crappie and Catfish are a distant 3rd. The BG fishing would be more popular but the size is just not there.

Well actually the most popular fishing and the busiest time at the pond is the 1-2 months after trout are released every year. Is this hurting anything because it will be hard to talk the guys out of their spring trout.

Welcome to the Pond Boss forum Brett!

Sounds like an interesting yet tricky dilemma. First off, the trout do not hurt anything and would be the least to worry about. They die probably sometime in June if any are left, so don't sweat the trout!

Now on to the meat of the situation. 3 acres is not small as far as ponds go, but it certainly is not large. With the kind of fishing pressure you speak of, that's getting pounded. You didn't mention if guys were keeping fish, or if it was mostly catch and release. That can be a substantial difference in management outlook.

I used to be a member of a Shooting Range in PA when I was in college and they had about a 3 acre pond that reminds me much of the pond you speak of in many ways.

It maybe a tough sell, but you may want to wipe the slate clean, Retenone the whole pond and begin from scratch. Otherwise you are looking at a very uphill battle trying to fix the fish community your community pond contains.

Any ideas on if Retenone would be a possible option or is that not realistic? If not, the experts on here will see if we can give you some advise to bring your fishing pond back to life.

Managing crappie in a 3 acre pond is VERY challenging. The LMB and the CC are a little easier to work with. To help in answering your question, what is the maximum and average depth of this pond? Any fish structure, aeration, feeding program? What is the pond bottom made up of? Aquatic vegetation present? Once we get this information, we'll see what we can do to help.

Hi Brett, and welcome. Although I have never seen it, I think I know someone who used to fish in that quarry.

With that much fishing pressure, you have a big challenge ahead of you. All it takes is 1 or 2 fishing hours a day to fish out a pond that size. Of course that depends on how many fish are kept and how many released.

The experts will chime in soon. Good luck!

This seems like a good place to have a slot limit for bass to increase quality while reducing total pounds. Removal of all crappie is best for the bass and would help the bluegill too. It is unlikely that fisherman could remove all crappie and the few remaining would likely grow faster. Removing hybrid bluegill would also probably be a good idea since they compete with small bass, crappie and do not contribute to the forage base. You might be able to convince the crappie fisherman that in trade for removing the crappie, hybrid striped bass could be stocked as a replacement once the bass and bluegill populations are in balance. Personally, I would trade hybrid stripers for trout any day since the fight harder, grow fast, taste great and will survive all year. Quarry lakes in our area usually have very low fertility. If this is the case with your company pond, a feeding program could dramatically benefit all species for the entire season. Maybe trade trout for feed if the budget is tight.

Is there any cover in the pond for smaller fish to hide?

Does anyone fish from a boat or is it all shore fishing?

I think a plan could be hatched to improve the quality of the fishery.

Thanks for the quick replies.

a few answers

1) I dont think getting fished out is a problem. Almost no fish are kept except trout. I would be suprised if 50 crappie are kept a year. The bluegill aren't big enough to keep and bass have been catch and release for many years. We are thinking seriously about a slot limit, just debating actual slot size.

2) i talked to a guy about HSB today after reading about them here. I think there is some interest. We need to figure out an acceptable size for stocking to insure survival and also the #'s to add

3) I'd say 75% shore fishing. 25% from Boat.

4)there is limited cover. This is also an issue we have talked about in the past but have been unsure of how to tackle it.

A little more info about the pond. I'd say that 75 % of the lake has a gentle slope to about 8' max with one end having steeper sides and a max depth around 16". Also we are overrun with Carp. We are trying to encourage our Bow hunters (myself included) to shoot some. Would there be any ethical/legal problem with trying to get the carp to take feed and killing them as they come to eat?

Also I talked to a guy about our overall goal. We need to have a point to aim for. We think that managing exclusively for trophy Bass is not an option. Too many guys, especially retirees and grandchildren like to come out and just drop a bobber and catch some good panfish. I think we just want a well rounded lake that a serious bass guy has a chance to catch a decent fish, but the casual weekender can come out and have some fun too.

Thanks again for the help

Honestly, from the sounds of it... This is a GREAT case for RETENONE!

Overpopulation galore, carp, trash fish... Sounds like a serious mess. Honestly, get the permits together and kill the whole pond off. In 5 years your members will be so happy you did!

Once you have killed off everything you can start from scratch and build a great fishery. You just have to make sure your members are willing to have self control and not be bucket stockers, throwing everything and anything into the pond...

If Retenone is not an option, which I would try to sell it as much as I could... Then you have a lot of work ahead of you.

I honestly dont think that will fly out there. It may be the best plan and I will bring it up but we may have to go with trying to improve what we've got. We do have plenty of time. Most guys who work there stay 35 years and then they still fish after that so even incremental change will be appreciated.

Well, try to sell it... Explain a year or two of no fishing will be worth it in the long run. If that don't work, let us know and we'll help you get the pond up to the best it can be with what you have to work with.

Oh yeah, when it comes to carp romoval... Nothing is unethical! Bait, shoot and shoot and shoot! HAHA

I just got off the phone with a guy on the committee. killing the lake would result in killing our new fishing committee. too many guys (esp retirees) wouldn't want to give it up for a couple years. Especially when this new committee hasn't proven a thing to the guys yet as far as results. We have done some cosmetic things and we did repair the spillway but none of us knows a lot (or anything really) about managing a fishery. Hopefully we can use this resource to build a little credibilty and maybe in the future we can recommend something this dramatic.

Also i missed earlier the post about fertility rates in quarry ponds. We are a stone quarrying operation but this pond (I believe) was never a quarry. It was built exclusively to be a fishing lake and has a clay bottom not stone. I don't know if that effects fertility rate and I dont even know how one would go about measuring that.

I kinda figured that they would not go the Retenone route...

Just a few more questions and then I will think on it a bit and try to give you a plan of attack...

Can you list all species you know are in the pond right now... What is the size structure of the crappie, bass, bluegill and any other gamefish species present... As in, the largest and the average size of each species. What forage is presently in the pond and reproducing?

Once I know this, I'll see what I can put together...

As a side note, I would recommend you use some of your budget and purchase a Pond Boss subscription. As a group you all can look through it and it may inspire some to be more open to proper management techniques...

I will do my best

Species that I know
1)LMB - avg 8-12" although every year 2 or 3 3-5 lb's that I know of
2)Channel Catfish- Don't know sizes as I dont fish for them, will ask around
3)Crappie -not sure back or white, is that important? would say avg 8 or 9" very rarely a 13 or 14"(I have heard not seen) - there are lots of crappie
4)Bluegill- small, lots of 3-5" never hear of or see any big ones
5)Hybrid bluegill- not sure the difference so lump this with above
6)Carp- lots, decent size, no one I know fishes for them just see them rolling
7) Perch- were stocked 3 years ago never heard of anyone catching them
8) Shovelhead cats - know they have been put in in distant past, not sure of any population now

As for forage fish I don't have a clue. How can I find this out?

I would say that we will have a subscription soon

Our yearly budget in the past has been about $1500 all from the company. I expect that to fall dramatically this year at least, due to the economy. We are trying as a committee to come up with some creative fundraising options. Would be happy if we are able to raise $1000 this year and hopefully build on that going forward. I think the fundraising will be easier when we are putting a quality product out there. Fortunatly we do have access to materials to build things with and a fair amount of volunteer manpower so most if not all of our small budget will go to fish.

Also to answer a couple earlier questions I missed. We do not have aeration and for now I dont think it will fit in our budget although this is something I think is worth looking into long term. We do not have a feeding program, I do not really forsee this happening anytime soon except for in limited situations like the carp I talked about because of our budget.

Also I wanted to throw this out there for your consideration. We have been throwing the idea of Mini-tournaments around, mostly for fundraising. Maybe like 1 a month alternating between crappie and bass, maybe catfish too. Do you think this would be good opportunity to do a controlled harvest?

Is seining an option? If the pond is narrow enough or has a narrow cove you could remove a lot of undesirable fish that way. It sounds like you got plenty of manpower with all the people who fish the lake. That way you could keep the target fish and get rid of a large chunk of carp or stunted fish. This may go over better with the committee.

It may be, the pond isnt that narrow but there may be some coves. We would need details on the mechanics of how to actually go about that in the most effective way

Aeration and feeding can be expensive especially if you are only working with a small budget. Keep them in mind for the future when you have your fish community under better management and the aeration and feeding will produce more benefit. There are however plenty of things that can be done to improve your fishery that does not involve money. Just time and back breaking work. But in order to implement those cheap solutions you need to build a foundation to work from. In order to build that foundation, use some of that $1000 to $1500 and take my recommendation…

This would be to contact a local fisheries management firm and seek their assistance. See what the cost would be to have them do an electrofishing survey of your pond. This would be an extremely helpful asset as you will get a much more accurate picture of your fish community. It is truly difficult to tell what a true fish community is through simple observation and angling alone…

Since the Retenone solution is not an option, we have to work from an unstable foundation… Having the survey done will stabilize that foundation some! I do not know what it would cost to have an electrofishing survey done on your pond, but it would be well worth the money. Let all the people who fish the pond know when the survey will be done and make it a family affair. It is really exciting for kids and adults alike to see fish come floating up. Especially if a large bass or crappie that has stayed hidden for years pops up! Explain to the firm you goals and your financial and other parameters and let them work with you to achieve your goal.

This survey will really give you a good idea what you are working with. Mid spring is often a great time to do such survey so I would start doing research soon. As a bonus, any carp or other undesirable fish that is shocked up can be killed on the spot! I would have to imagine there are at least a couple firms to choose from.

I would really like to give you an easy do this type break down, but I would feel I would possibly be leading you down the wrong road without first knowing the true fish community your pond contains. Perhaps someone on here has experience with a fisheries management firm near you that they can recommend.

Best of luck and keep us updated!

As a side thought, once your have the survey done. Please post the results so that the experts on here can make sure you get good quality advice from the management firm.

I haven't had time to read through the recent replies, but the carp do present a problem.

I would suggest setting up some basic fishing rules that cover what needs to be culled and what needs to be released.

Put all sunfish back. Keep all LMB between 8-11". Take out all catfish. Remove all crappie...these are just examples.

A concerted effort to remove carp via fishing and bow hunting will have an impact also.

These are all no cost options.

Then, buying some pellets to feed will help the health of bluegill so they breed more and produce more forage.

We talk about shocking last year, it is something we would really like to try, it is just too expensive right now. I guess maybe this year we should focus on removal of crappie and carp as well as slot limited LMB. And try to encourage the most avid fisherman to keep records so we can get some kind of a record of what we have even if it is not as good as electroshock.Does this sound like a good initial plan? What would you recommend as forage species for stocking. Also from talking to guys there seems to be some real interest in the HSB. Should we hold off for a year on them. We have our annual spring meeting next week and we would like to go in with at least a rough gameplan. I liked the idea of going with the HSB in lieu of trout because of the fact they will stay in year round, not over--run(trout wouldn't either), and may present a good table fish option. If the HSB would be a good option this year, what kind of size and #'s. I dont think supplemental feeding will be a long term option but it may be something we can try this year for the BG. How would we go about this?

I would hold off on HSB just for right now until you have a better grip on the overall population. Of course they will live all year round, but you might not have enough for them to eat and thus thrive. But, if the group must add some fish, I would do them over trout simply for the long term benefit.

I would not add forage fish until you know more about what you have regarding forage and predators. Adding fathead minnows or shiners now would be just like doing a very short term feeding especially with little to no cover in the pond.

It might not be a bad idea to add some adult bluegill, but not hybrid bluegill as the regular bluegill will have more long term benefit.

I think it would be a great idea to do the following (all for commentary by others):

1) Get some structure in there now. X-mas trees, rock piles, PVC structures, etc. This can all be free stuff, just some labor of love.

2) Start a slot limit cull on LMB, or maybe remove all LMB caught until you've removed maybe 10-15 lbs. per acre of LMB.

3) Take out every crappie that you catch. You will not get all of them, and the ones that stay will get bigger.

4) Don't remove any bluegill.

5) Catfish? Up to you, but they eat a lot of other fish, so they are a big variable. I would take them out until you get a grip on things. They are cheap to restock down the line if wanted.

6) Take out all carp caught by whatever means. I can't say I recommend shooting them with a gun due to safety and liability for the land owners.

7) Start pellet feeding. This can be done successfully by hand. You would be surprised at what you learn by seeing what comes to feed. It will help you understand the pond better and help the health of the fish. It does not have to be long term.

8) Seining or trapping: If you can do either of these, they are very effective methods for assessing fish populations and removing unwanted fish.

All of these are very low cost options. You should try to get the group to understand that just spending money may not help right now.

QUESTION FOR THE FORUM: Can mature, bigger LMB have an impact on carp populations by eating young, smaller carp?

What does anyone else think?

I doubt that a healthy LMB population will have much if any impact on carp. There's a public lake not too far away that was Rotenone'd years ago due to a large carp/gar population. After it was killed, the DNR restocked it with bass and your typical fish mix. The carp are overrunning the lake again.

As for shooting the carp, I agree, not with a gun, but a bow is a different matter! I'd see if you can buy a couple bags of pellets, and start hand feeding. After the carp find the free meal, they will spread the word. Later on this Summer, have some bowfishermen come over when you are feeding to shoot as many as they can.

Depending on your budget, there are fish tagging systems that are available. How about getting the tagger, tag a few big ones (either freshly bought fish or larger ones that were caught from the pond) and have a fishing derby to help raise money? Say $5.00 or $10.00 entry fee per angler per species for each species of fish that was tagged, with 50% of the entry fee going back to the angler who catches the tagged fish, or the biggest fish of each species if you don't want to tag any? That way if someone doesn't really like to fish for bass, but does like to fish for panfish, they have a shot at winning something also.

We are actually thinking of doing Mini-tournaments almost exactly like that, Not the tagging, but largest fish in different species with a $10 entry and 50% going back to the winner.