..you can have a pond over run with small BG or crappie but still have skinny bass because the first two are competing with them for the same food source, so you might need to add an apex predator like a muskie, northern pike or HSB to really get things under control?

It all depends... Ponds require hands on management. There rarely is a pond that just self sustains itself as a quality fishery. This is why it is so important to keep records, of the fish you catch, species, length, weight, numbers, where, when, how... It is all invaluable information. Seine surveys, trap nets, electrofishing can all be invaluable tools as well. You can then take the information you have gathered and tweak your management methods accordingly. IMHO and experience, in smaller ponds say under 3 acres, the use of pike or musky may cause more trouble than they are worth. Where as the use of trap nets and fishing to remove the needed fish sizes may be more appropriate. HSB are not quite the same as are pike or musky and have a very different behavior. There are certainly times when pike or musky would work to help solve certain pond management problems. Personally, I am a bigger fan of chain pickerel as opposed to pike or musky. They only reach 24-28" in length. Meaning they will never become so large as to feed on quality panfish, like a 12" YP or 9" BG. I'd rather catch and eat them myself and not leave that up to a musky. But again, it all depends.

Bullhead,

I'm sitting here scratching my head on that one. I'm trying to imagine a scenario where prey species would be abundant yet their predators skinny.

If you have say huge catfish that keep the LMB ducking for cover instead of hunting, I suppose that could be 1 way. Even then, the BG would run for the same cover, and the LMB would have easy pickings. LMB are so much faster than catfish, I don't even know if they would be a problem. I've certainly seen healthy crappie and LMB coexist in smallish ponds.

CJ, maybe you can help educate me on that. My BC are starting to get around 15", so I need to know what to look out for.

Ponds overrun with thick weeds and cover can cause that result bobad. It makes the predators expend to much energy for the food value. LMB do better in that case than any of the other ones CJ noted.

Eric hit it on the head. Thick weeds can often be a major issue. If a vast area of your pond is covered in certain species of submerged aquatic vegetation that doesn't allow movement of predators access, it provides too much refuge for BG, BC, etc... Some species like hydrilla, elodea and some species of pondweed get very thick. Other species, like American pond weed, eel grass, are not as thick, provide cover for forage fish, but still allow efficient predation on them by the ponds predators.

LMB are much better at foraging on prey in thick environments while HSB are an open water specialist. Structure is something that can be tweaked fairly easily. Particularly if starting from scratch or working with an older pond that never had much structure put in it to geing with. We all know the importance of fish attracting structure. It concentrates fish into smaller areas making it easier for us to catch them. It can also make it tougher for predators to prey on forage, depending on several factors. It could also make it easier for predators to prey on them. As we all have heard, it all depends... If I was doing the HSB BC pond in an effort to grow large BC, I think limiting structure would be a good idea. This would allow the HSB to more efficiently prey upon the BC.

This is a description of what my pond was like when I purchased it. About 70% Elodea coverage. Only a strip in the middle of the pond was open. Skinny LMB and large GSF. The Elodea gets so thick it's almost impossible to paddle a kayak through let alone fish in it.

Did I ever mention before that I hate Elodea?

I think so. Even more than Brussels Sprouts.

Yea but you can at least wrap brussels sprouts in bacon and make them edible. Not to sure about Elodea

So if you spend hundreds of dollars on Cutrine, Weedtrine and other trines, add aeration, keep the cows out and pray to the patron saint of weed control, could the fish come back into a better balance.

JHAP, I heard manatees like to eat elodea... Does Cali let you import them in?

Along with the other trines, you forgot about applying liberal amounts of $$$$$$$$trines.

Don't underestimate manual removal. Manual removal can do wonders for a small pond (1 acre). No cost other than your labor. It opens things up for the fish/fishing. But best of all it removes the nutrients from the pond (they are bound up in the removed weeds). Not so for other options as they are recycled (unless you remove the carp or tilapia or fish).

No we can't have any fun here. No manatees, no grass carp, no tilapia, no rhinoceros. And yet, much like your breakfast cereal, we have an abundance of fruits, nuts and flakes.

much like your breakfast cereal, we have an abundance of fruits, nuts and flakes. [/quote from JSAP]

That explains the GSF obsession

Bing

Very true, just don't try to manually remove Elodea or Hydrilla. Been there done that. Sure you remove it in the short term but the fragments cause it to spread like wild fire. We use the manual removal method on other weeds though. Get one of those weed cutters and a weed rake and you can remove a lot of stuff in a relatively short time period.

OH SNAP!

Well I guess I deserve that for my Geritol crack.

Wait that didn't sound right.

The pond is question is 15 acres. The last time I tried to remove unwanted vegetation from 15 acres it was cockleburs in a soybean field and I was 12 years old.

Naw, you won't be manually removing stuff from a 15 acre pond. Well maybe stuff around shorelines that you like to enter and exit but that's about it. Dang 15 acres?!?!

Elodea with geritol gravy?I think Ill stick with brussel sprouts.How many rum&cokes does it take before the elodea tastes good?

Somewhere between 3 and 11 depending upon who is mixing.