History of pond: Central Arkansas, 2.5 acres, max depth 28 ft. Stocked with RES, BG and FHM in Oct 2008. Stocked with 75 F1s, 75 Northern LMB, and 50 CC in May 2009.
My goal is growing big bass. I plan on stocking Tilapia this spring and was debating on threadfin shad or golden shiners. I've read the posts about shad being the foundation for any trophy bass lake. Is it too early to stock threadfins? Is there a difference with respect to bass growth between shad and golden shiners? I worry because I probably would have lost the shad this winter due to cold/freezing water. If time for shad, when is the right time to add them and where can you get them in Arkansas?

Thanks in advance!

Chad

I've never stocked the threadfins, too cold up here for them to survive the winter. IIRC, they don't like 44*-57* water, and die at or below water temps of 41*. Golden Shiners do just fine under the ice.

I don't know which one would be better for you, sorry.

You can probably stock shad in your pond but you will have winter kills every 3rd year on average if I had to guess. What size were the bass when you stocked them last year and what size are they now? Have they exhausted their FHM supply yet? With the addition of tilapia this year, you may want to wait another year before stocking threadfins. Golden shiners can go in this year if you like. Having multiple forage options for bass cannot hurt IMO and is probably a good thing. Get the GSH established before the bass get too large.

The bass were 1.5" when stocked. I haven't caught one since October but they were 8-9" then. I guess it wouldn't hurt to postpone shad introduction one more year. That was my original plan anyway. How long do the golden shiners survive? Will they be eaten to extinction like the FHM?

Shiners are variable... Sometimes they survive for long periods, other times they are eaten to extinction within a couple years after the FHM. If you have some shallow weedy areas, there is a higher chance they will survive...

If your goal is to have big bass then go with Threadfins and Tilapia. They live in different niches and provide excellent forage for bass. yes they will die but so will tilapia.

Thanks for the advice guys. Now if I can figure out where to get the threadfins. Any suggestions?

They (tShad) may be a little more cold tolerant than some thought but Conway is pushing the limit. Need to look at the cost vs. possible loss due to cold.

cm, I can tackle one aspect on the question it is not too early. We began about 5 years stocking prior to bass and have had NO issues stocking them then and have saved clients tons of money but stocking less. So if you decide to go for them you are fine as far as timing. Got a feeling they would have not made it this year but then again I will be finding out soon if Atlanta shad were complete die offs or not.

im still on the fence abou T-shad. and im down here a little south of Dallas. People lost them even a little south of my area this year. I have a 7 acre lake that im contemplating. Mostly deep water etc.

For the cost of stocking T-shad one year I can add Tilapia at 10lbs to acre for 2.5 years. Yes the shad can last much longer, yet, for one they may not take, and two we can't control the weather.

Im thinking stock Golden shiner and stock Tilapia every year and fertilize to get the most benefit from them. If i see the Golden shiner make it i may try the shad later on.

CM, in your case though atleast your pond is 2.5acres, not being a really large pond will help your wallet out a lot. If you try it and fail your not out a whole bunch of $$$.

Chad you might be surprised from reading Todd Overton comments and talking with Bob (he will shock ponds soon) who knows there may not have been a total loss in the area. Also no diff on the way we stock shad in cost, 2.5 acres or 15 acres they all get one load (~5000 >1.5" shad)

A couple of thoughts.

GShiners and tilapia could work well.

GShiners can take cold water so they are not an indicator of if TShad can survive.

You can add TShad at low numbers and low $ amount (see Greg's comment)successfully if you do it before LMB and have time to let them establish. It can be done post adult LMB as well but it takes timing and higher numbers. You need a plankton bloom for long term success with TShad.

One point to think about WRT $ and balance and risk. If you have TShad for several years and adult LMB and the TShad die-off you need to do something or the LMB population will over eat the remainig forage and you will end up with a LMB crowded and skinny population. The same as if you stock tilapia a couple years and then stop. The LMB population grows to the forage base and if a big part of the forage goes away you get to many skinny LMB with not enough to eat. So its not just a current $ consideration it is also a population balance question.

Yeah, I thought Todd lost his T-shad in his ponds etc. He did follow that right up though and say he will have some avaliable though for sale.

Greg, we weren't probably on the same page here, i was more thinking along the lines of an already established pond when I was talking about differences in stocking numbers. CM seems to have a fresh start so yeah I understand your concept. My pond is already established with bass of all sizes. I was thinking you would put more in in that situation.

Ewest, good point, I guess what I was trying to put across is everytime you add something to the pond your subject to more work and more money to sustain it and get the most benefit from it. Fertilizer, feeders, feed, tilapia cost per year, T-shad stocking and restocking, shiner stocking and restocking if needed and a Big chunk of your time to take care of the pond and its populations of fish etc. It all adds up... A person just needs to find a budget and fit the best strategy withen it and be Consistent.

Lusk still says that he has never seen a double digit bass come out of ponds that don't have TShad.

There have been a number of double digit bass caught out of the 78 acre lake down the street from my house. It has no shad at all, no Tshad or Gshad. The biggest bass caught has been over 13 pounds and I have personally seen two bass caught that were 10 lbs, 7 oz. and 11 lbs, 4 oz. There are a number of states were Tshad cannot survive but still have double digit state records. But maybe there is a difference between a smaller private pond and a bigger public lake?

I to have a pond that has produced 10 12+ and 13 lb LMB with no shad.

That is not Bob's point though. His point is every trophy LMB pond he has seen be successful has shad. There is a big difference between a trophy LMB pond and one that occasionally produces a 10+ lb LMB. A trophy LMB pond is one with a high # and % of its LMB of large size. That is big bass not many bass. It is managed differently with lots of large high nutrient forage and few bass. Also it does not tie up lots of carrying capacity in small LMB or small forage. The idea is as the LMB grow you shift the average forage size up with them.

Yes, a 15 pound bass needs 2 pound meals... BG aren't going to provide that, Gshad will... So would stocker rainbow trout, CA's huge bass prove that!

My brother once pulled a fat 24" LMB from an unmanaged .9 acre tank near San Antonio.

Travis, I talked to Bob last week about this. He said TShad, not GShad.

Chad, Todd added to his Tshad thread and said he was surprised he had them still there-thus my comment.

No Im talking about established ponds as well one load is many times harder to establish in 2 acres than in 10 acres not as much open water to get away. In this case shad a better investment as the pond gets bigger. On new ponds we can sell half load and they do just fine and save client some coin.

Dave I think when Bob makes his claim abotu the 10 bass is actually never seen not having gizzard shad not just shad. I have seen numerous with gizzard shad but boy do the gizzard really jump the chances up ten fold in right situation.

Greg, I asked that specific question. Unless I really, really, misunderstood, he said TShad. Surprised me too.

ok we are going to have to bet a beer over this one I say he says "not once has he shocked a bass over 10 lbs in a lake that does not have gizzard shad." I will findout and report if wrong or right.

ok Dave did not give you time to see if you agreed to terms of bet. Lusk just txt me it was "GIZZ". he said more to it than that but we all know that is always the case.

I have personally heard him say both at different times. GShad have very limited application (trophy LMB only) and significant risk in ponds IMO.

Eric I continue to lean stronger than you on reward side in right circumstance. I was in that thought process for years leaning more on risk side but our shocking has showed us differently. i agree for the most part limited place. However there are those that the gizzard would fit their goals in the risk/reward department and do not do it from unfounded fears. I would say application is in trophy bass but also quality bass after being well established for several years and they are wanting to push limits. Not well worded but hope I made my point.

Greg I agree GShad can work in a trophy LMB pond that is highly managed. That is what K Nutt was talking about in his oft criticized article. Those are a small % of ponds though. But if the owner gets it wrong he gets these







And ends up short of these






And the only way out is rotenone and start over – a high , costly risk for most.

yes have seen that happen MANY times and we agree on that part. However also have seen it not happen many times (and not as often as many fear) the bass that are there are like none other. The gizzards ahd are for the most part 9-12 inches with only an occasional one over 14 inches. One exampleis alke that they claim has had gizzard shad for over 20 years and not even well managed. BTW I like that last pic I think that was our fish we brought to you.

One example is the lake you came to for the PB GA meeting. Lake Sovereign was killed off. Before many fish were stocked gizzard shad found their way in via entry creek. That was 5 years ago and they are just now getting to average 12 inches and they have monster bass. This to me is a worst case study they got there before any bass much less like we recommend stocking them after the year 3-4 or high% of bass over 18 inches. In this case it is sad and the fishery will go down hill soon but in the mean time they enjoy the large bass and crappie and they norhtenr bass we stocked to help keep the GZ in check.

If it is tshad, I wonder if that plays into the fact that northern states grow smaller bass. Tshad can't live up north, so bass can't utilize them as a food source. Obviously growing season length and the lack of FL LMB genetics plays a roll as well...

Greg, I well may have been wrong because the answer surprised me.

A shame about Sovereign. Kinda reminds me to be careful about what you wish for.

BTW, I have to be careful drinking beer with you. The first time that happened, it cost me the shirt on my back. Tell Wendy I said Hi.

CJ some northern waters have other shad types [Clupeidae (Herrings, shads, sardines, menhadens) ] like alewife , blueback and they do have GShad.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post13998

Yeah, but Bob specifically mentioned tshad which is why I mentioned it. Most of the reservoirs in my area have either alewife or blueback herring or both as they were trapped when the dam went in. Almost all also have gshad. Perhaps it has more to do with the northern climate and lack of FL LMB genes in the population.

I have a 1 acre pond, someone offered me 50 12" Gizzards so I figured what the hell, I put them in. I really don't care and not too worried about them. It looks at some point I'm either going have to redo this pond or get rid of it so whatever. It would make a good test pond. If I had my guess, I'll never see much of the shad.

I have somewhere around 60 bass ranging from 1-2 pounds up to 8 pounds, one 8 Lb bass and several 4-5 Lb bass were transferred from a nearby lake by a neighbor. Also have around 100 CC in the 3-5 lb. range.

It will be interesting to see how your pond fairs... I suspect with the good number of large sized bass and catfish you have to help control their numbers you'll be OK in the short term. I think you will be OK as far as your bass numbers go. Your BG and other panfish will take a hurting though. I am watching a 4 acre pond that was invaded by gshad 6 years ago go through a transformation right now and am very interested how things play out. Keep us updated... When did you stock the gshad into your pond? Do you have data of Wr on bass and other species in your pond before they were stocked? Would be interesting to compared the before and after...

Dave it was not planned in sovereign but I do not feel sorry. The kids enjoy the bluegill. The adults enjoy the big crappie and bass. It will be sad at some point but when they get the "gizz lockup" for now the lake is awesome for monster bass and some agressive northerns we have stocked.

How do Shad work with SMB? Or, do they?

Gshad or tshad?

Each species would have vastly different outcomes and affects...

Either one.

Tshad would be a good option in many larger southern ponds. However, not many people have SMB in ponds far enough south to also support Tshad...

Gshad, are a struggle to keep with LMB, let alone SMB. Unless you had a pond with 2/3 of the population over 15" and 1/4 over 20", Gshad would make a mess... Even then, it would be risk. SMB have substantially smaller mouths than LMB. I think there are better forage solutions for SMB than Gshad. SMB are far less piscavorous than LMB as well.

In a pond I was looking at raising trophy SMB, I'd use RES, crayfish, LCS, bluntnose minnows and spotfin shiners as the forage base. Once the SMB reached the 18" range, I'd consider stocking GSH as well. That is for a northern pond where Tshad were not an option.

Any other forage fish (BG , GShinres , RES , FH etc )?

Everything except RES. One of the many issues with this pond, when it rains even moderately, the water goes over the emergency spillway. Last summer, I sat there and watched hundreds (at least it seemed that way) of 4-5" GSH washing out. I'm intending to fix that issue this summer with an inline water control structure.

With 50 12" GHS in a 1 ac pond, you may not see much of them for several years. Providing they were in good shape going in, they survived and will populate well. If plankton is not available they will eat pellets, then one can watch for them. After several years they could be a big player in the pond and you don't have a clue. They don't bite hooks well and it is really hard for a pond guy to sample them and tell what the population is doing as for numbers and size. As far as I know, about the only way to determine their numbers and sizes is to electro-shock or gill net. This is one of several reasons why I consider gizzard shad risky business unless one has the resources to monitor them.

I put 50 of them in but yeah, it's very difficult for me alone to assess. This fall, I'll probably bring Mr. Banks out with his electro-boat and see what's going on. I'd be very interested to know but my "test pond" attitude relieves my stress and the stress was very high the first year I had this place. The pond, as a whole, is extremely difficult to manage considering all of the runoff from developments in the watershed.

Shawn can , while you guys check on the status, help fix the pond by taking out what you have to much of.

Would it be easier to control bigger gshad in a pond with a bigger apex preditor such as pike or muskie on a northern pond? Say you have a well established pond with a good number of bigger bass and you choose to use gshad, then how about adding a few pike or muskie.

The problem with pike and musky is they eat what is easiest for them, no necessarily what you want them to... Pike and musky may feed heavily on the gshad, but they may also feed heavily on your YP, walleye and other fish you really don't want them eating... I am not saying there isn't a place for pike or musky in pond management, but it is a very tricky balancing act with lots of room for error to happen. If you're going to use an esox species, use the tiger musky to prevent natural reproduction which may happen with NP. In a pond smaller than 5 acres, I don't think pike or musky should even be considered... In ponds 5 acres and bigger, stocking 1 or 2 a year or every other years is a possibility...

Sure, I understand that predators will feed on whatever is avaliable wheather that is perch or bass or walleye or what have you. However the bigger the predator the bigger it wants its meals. So I guess my question is would they be effective at cropping the bigger gshad, leaving good forage for the other predators.

Sure, they will eat bigger gshad, but they will also eat 10"-14" YP and bass... Usually the size you want for the table... I'd skip the gshad, unless you had a large % of your pond in bass over 20"...

So the cons of gshad are that they get bigger than predators can eat and over time will destroy your fishery by robbing nest of eggs. The pros are that they create an outstanding forage base for a few years with the ability to provide larger prey to large predators. Will golden shiners be able to sustain themselfs if allowed ample time to inhabit the pond before say perch and smb are added? What else could be added that would be a sustainable forage? I've heard that pumpkin seed reproduce to fast for smb to keep up with. Res wouldnt survive our winters.

There are several cons of gshad. They are not nest egg robbers. Their biggest issue is they reproduce so fast and their young growth so fast, that one, they overpopulate taking up a large percentage of the biomass in a pond. A major reason why even if they are stocked in a trophy bass pond, that pond should be at least 5 acres IMO. With their growth rate, they often outgrow their predator's mouth gape in a matter of a month or two. Large numbers of gshad compete with the young and often even middle sized game fish for food as they feed heavily on zooplankton.



Gshad provide good forage for a very short period of time to most predators other than large LMB, say over 18" or SMB over 22". That is one big SMB! Gshad and SMB really don't mix...


This answer to this question is, it all depends... However, if conditions are favorable, then yes it is very likely golden shiners can maintain a self sustaining viable population in a SMB, YP pond... GSH need areas of shallow water with flooded vegetation to spawn and to use as a nursery for their YOY. Without this, their reproductive success rate will be very low and they will steadily be eaten out of the pond. Stocking golden shiners in advance of stocking particularly the SMB and allowing them a chance to establish and get some size to them, could help in getting them established. SMB are far less piscavorous than are LMB. Another important factor is not allowing the SMB and YP to overpopulate. If they do, they will over predate their forage a well.


As you mentioned, you're too far north for RES so they are not an option. Species that I feel could work well in a SMB, YP perch pond are: golden shiners, bluntnose minnows, fathead minnows, spotfin shiners, lake chubsuckers and orangespotted sunfish. Also don't forget that most good SMB ponds have at least a fair percentage of rocky areas. These areas should be utilized for stocking crayfish. SMB love crayfish and will readily feed on them.