3/4 acre BOW
10-12 Max depth
Might experience some agricultural runoff, not sure but water might be on the slightly more turbid side - still dry pond at this point - he is willing to add catch ponds to help prevent muddy runoff.
Mainly shaded - lots of mature timber around the pond

He wanted a LMB/BG/CC pond...innocent enough and easily established.

He started talking to me.

He started reading PB SMB threads.

He started changing his mind.

He figures he can ALWAYS catch all the BG and LMB he wants minutes from his house, but how many BOWs in Eastern NE have SMB, YP, HSB, Male BG and RES? Only two other ponds I know of. Besides, he can always revert to a LMB fishery if the experiment doesn't yield the results he desires.

Wants to know feasibility of going this route considering his pond situation.

Should he seek more depth in the pond than 10-12'?
No electricity, but will have windmill aerator - will this help the [YP/SMB] survive as they are more sensitive to water quality?
Might have slight turbidity - will this effect these species negatively?
Any other issues he should consider? I've been primarily concerned with water quality issues thinking the YP and SMB might need something better.

Any advice would be appreciated...I love the fact he's considering going the more exotic route, but I want to provide him with as much advice as possible prior to him making the commitment.

Thanks all!

tj:

I know this won't help much, but in light that he won't be feeding, I wonder if the YP/RES will be a large enough forage base for the SMB/HSB?

Is the pond clay lined, and is he pretty sure that it won't get much shallower due to sediment? Personally, I would like it to be deeper, but that's because I've only had experience with the sandy soils around here which tend to slide to the deepest part of the pond.

TJ asked the questions for my pond, wanting a little more feedback.

I don't have a feeder right now, but it's certainly in the plans.

The pond is clay and was planning on going 12-15' deep. Currently we're sitting at about 8' and dry. Deep enough or more?

When I bought this place I was told that the pond was 20' deep. I took posession (3 months after closing) at the end of February, and a week later the ice went off of the pond. I found out then that there was a Winterkill and all the large fish in the pond died. It turns out that the pond was only 7'-8' deep at max depth, and that was only for 1/4th of the pond at the maximum. I bought an electric aerator for the next winter and haven't had a problem with Winterkill since.

If it was my pond, I'd go to 15' depth, and plan on some sediment filling it back in a couple feet, but that's because I have sandy soil. I don't know how much sediment will build up in your pond. Personally, I'd be comfortable with 50% of the pond depth at 12' after the first couple of years sediment build-up. I believe you'll see the most sediment build-up the first year or 2, before all the plants get established around the pond.

With a 3/4 ac pond, the sides might get pretty steep if you go much deeper than 15'.

I currently have a 3:1 slope. Will continue that till we hit the 12-15 mark and level off.

Sounds like a good plan. Will you have any bottom contours, or will it be bowl shaped with man-made structures?

I was planning on using the bobcat to create some trenches, dropoffs, etc., but have some pvc that's looking for a place to rest as well. Will I need as much with these species as opposed to the LMB?

Not to the extent that LMB do, but they'll still use it. I'd put that stuff in there because if you ever change to LMB you'll want it there!

What do I need to do to ensure the water quality is sufficient for SMB? The BOW is very close to a field, as TJ mentioned. Small grass buffers between 10-20 feet wide. Currently the field is the corn/beans rotation, but I will try to convince my dad to plant alfalfa in this area to cut down on the silt runoff. We were planning on a windmill aerator shortly after the pond is complete.

Bill/Eric others:

In Eastern NE with slightly turbid water, windmill aeration, supplement pellet program - Can our friend safely try the SMB/YP/RES/HSB experiment? Any concerns you might harbor with the water clarity or lack of electric aeration? Please chime in if you can! Thanks!

IMO in Nebraska water clarity will be just about as important as aeration. Do all you can to minimize siltation and suspended clay.

What are some suggestions or experiences in catching siltation? TJ mentioned an area where he thought I should dig a catch pond or two. And good, thick grass buffers between the field and pond.

Ok, ultimately I'm still considering this. Is there anything preventing me from stocking forage when full pool and then when the vegetation is established, clay settled, etc., see if the clarity is good enough for SMB? If so, go ahead when forage is well established. If not, stock BG and LMB. As TJ pointed out, if the clarity or something turns out to not be well suited for SMB habitat, I could always turn back to LMB, but I'd like to keep the SMB possibility open till I know for sure one way or the other.

You can suspend the diffuser off the bottom in a bucket to help with not stirring up the bottom. Are the fields fertilized ? Buffer strips are a good idea. A small ( 6 inches deep) furrow on the upland side of the strips will help catch silt and fertilizer.

SMB can live in some fairly turbid rivers in the south for example the Tenn-Tom in N Miss. They raise a lot of big SMB.

I would work hard to maintain a very thick vegetation buffer between your pond and where ever your runoff is coming in. If your pond is fed by a stream, in the channel where the stream feeds into the main pond, I would build a small catch basin wetland type pond. Allow it to slow the water down, let that water drop it's sediments and then make entry into your pond. I don't see any reason why you couldn't stock your forage, like GSH, FHM but not sunfish far ahead of your SMB. Allow the forage to build while you see what the final clarity of your pond will be. Then you can stock SMB, if they work out... Great, if not you can always switch to the BG/LMB option.

How wide would you make that to make it last through weather? I would think that would fill pretty quickly wouldn't it? Similar in principle to TJ's catch pond suggestion.

That's what I had in mind Travis. Thanks. LMB won't care if it's a little deeper.

Eric Bill and Travis thanks for chiming in. I am worried a little about turbidity and runoff but since Josh has an Uncle with a dozer he can create burms, channels, and silt ponds to slow it down allow the particulate to settle and minimize siltation.

Josh you have a great idea - stock forage and RES and see what your water situation becomes. Bruce has around 24" clarity and he has SMB and YP. Both do well. I can help you figure out where to strategically place the buffers, burms, channels and silt ponds. Your silt ponds could also serve as forage generating machines - PK Shrimp, FHM, GSH, etc. Just seine whenever you need to supplement the pond with forage. I like that idea the more I think about it.

+1

Maybe this is the nerd in me, but this sounds really cool.

Sounds like things are really coming together. I think you have a solid plan. You should think about always having a little bottleneck in your pond you can net off so you could raise forage or grow out fingerlings. Eric West employs this method successfully and has written a few articles in PB on the process that I really enjoyed and dumbed it down so even I might be able to do it. Since you still have the blank canvas might not be a bad idea to entertain something like that?

I'll have 2 coves that I can play with, northeast and northwest corners. Would probably be easier to use the northeast corner. If you recall that was that potentially shallow corner that I stretched out near the 'entrance'.

I'm liking this more and more. I think it will 'force' me to be more involved in the management process instead of the LMB and BG taking care of themselves.

What would prevent me from considering Pumpkinseeds?

Yo Josh

PS max out at 8" and IIRC have high fecundity more similar to a BG - so overpopulation/stunting may be an issue like with BG. RES are the suggested sunfish via Dave Willis because of their lower fecundity...fewer numbers for the predators/Milczski family to manage.

If you are really serious about giving the SMB, YP, RES, HSB, M BG a try I can help stock the following this Spring/early Summer:

YP: I think I'm going to pull off a spawn this year as I caught a ton of gravid females through the ice this year and have plenty of sticky structure in my creek arms. I should be able to seine these out at some point this Summer/Fall - no way I'm going to need them all. Or, Rob at NE lake management sells them at a fair price.

HSB: Bruce raises these every year and always is left with several dozen...or, I'll have about 50 I need to remove from my pond in Autumn and they should be around 12" or so, maybe a little large to stock in your pond just yet, though.

RES: We can catch as many as you want from W NE and right before we are to fillet them accidently dump the bucket into your pond! D'OH - clumsy TJ!

BG: I have CSBG and we can fish or trap/seine all the Males you want.

SMB: If all goes well I should have 3-4" in the repro pond this Autumn - would be a good time to stock them, too.

GSH: Anderson's sells 250M fry for $275. In an pond devoid of a fish population it's a good gamble IMO.

FHM: 5-10# from Orschleins Fish Days from Arkansas Pond Stockers [be sure to hand sort!] would do the trick - I used them last year and was satisfied by only finding one CNBG in the bunch. Rob at NE Lake Management will also sell them in mid April for $35/1000.

PK Shrimp: Come over and let's net some this Spring. I hope to have plenty - I stocked around 4M last year, I should at that rate! Getting them in early should help establish a strong presence for your fish later on.

I can't wait for this to get rolling...seems like 5 years ago I visited your place.

Awesome TJ. I was really curious, and couldn't find a whole lot of information on PS fecundity.

I have reserved myself to the task of stocking SMB and YP. Check my pond thread in Selecting a Site. I was out there over the weekend, first time in a couple months, and the soil, to my untrained eye anyway, looks GREAT. Nice clumps, no "runs", and the water looked great. Only thing now is, we have to pump it out to continue digging. And I'm too impatient for this man. I'm teaching myself how to operate that dozer.

All of that sounds almost too good to be true and I'm so fortunate you are so clumsy with your fish.

And I want in on one of the sides of those nets.

Josh - I may not be 100% correct on the PS as I have zero experience with them, I'm simply reciting information I THINK I've read from Dr Willis' panfish to couple with SMB article.

I can always use a seining partner - I'll count you in!

Guy's, while PS's don't average the size of RES, they can grow much bigger than those 8" pygmy PS's, also they can tolerate much colder temps. than RES.(nice to know incase global warming doesn't kick in).
From what I have read the consensus seems to be 2 to 3 thousand eggs per PS female, not nearly what BG have.

Some day I've got to get you guys some mountain PS's, up here there are no BG, too whimpy.

I think we need Dave Willis to chime in here as I'm going on his advice IIRC regarding PS as a suitable companion panfish for a pond with SMB [or other fish with limited gape like HSB or YP] as the apex predator. He discouraged adding anything but RES as PS are more fecund, like the BG option. He also noted that PS max out at 8" up North in SD. Not sure how that compares to NY, but I would have thought favorably. I have no doubts someone of your skills can grow them larger, however!
AP - I have no experience with PS and you do, so I completely acknowledge and yield to you there. However, I want to make certain Josh is aware of the potential imbalance risk that exists when selecting a panfish for a pond that lacks LMB as the top line predator. I think PS are cool looking fish and, if they don't pose an overpopulation risk, could serve as a suitable, and super cool, option. I guess what I'm asking for is clarification on this point, as I may have my information wrong, but I don't think so. Advising Josh well here is our main goal...Bill, Eric, Dave please chime in!

TJ, just kiddin around, although the PS's don't appear to propagate anything like BG.
I think like everything else selective breeding is the key and I'm working on that.

PS. Just a WAG, but could it be that PS's overpopulate and stunt in ponds just like GSF, cause they are both tolerant of poor conditions that reduce or kill other fish.

Sorry AP, hope I didn't come across aggressive...the LAST thing I want to do is to come off like some FORMER pb members who were banned bc of their adamant defense of their views.

I'm genuinely interested in knowing if PS could serve as a panfish suitable for SMB...if so, that opens up an entirely new species option for all of us who manage SMB.

Look for a RES-SMB article by Dr.Willis in the May-Jun PBoss mag.

PS do tend to stunt as will YP if there is not enough predation. The problem is SMB are not efficient at controlling both stunting populations. Here is part of what you are looking for.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=156359&fpart=2

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...true#Post181958


http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post14665

Definitely. Rex already warned me pretty good, so I think I'm ready for pretty much anything short of Armageddon.

Man, I'm really missing my computer right now. I will definitely check out Eric's links tomorrow and very much look forward to that upcoming article.

Here's what got me thinking (and this is coming from my phone's keypad so I apologize for any misspellings, etc.). From what I understand most small SMB fisheries need to contnuously replenish their forage numbers. RES are too few, BG are too many. I'm considering other fish options in the middle that may contribute to a healthy forage base.

Finding the sweet spot for SMB - I hear you.
All I know is that Dave Willis has suggested RES may hold their own with SMB and Mark Cornwall suggests GSH may also keep up with predation from SMB and establish a stable forage base season after season. You can always supplementally stock GSH from time to time.

I'm missing something, still haven't read anything explaining why PS's are suppose to be more prone to stunting and overpopulating.
Everything I've read gives a maximum of 3500 eggs for PS's, verses up to 30,000 for RES, and up to 80,000 for BG.

Someone please enlighten me.

I definitely agree with the value of GSH.

AP

Based on that information you shouldn't have pulled any punches and simply called me loco! We obviously have completely conflicting info, that's for sure! I'm in need of some guidance here like you. IMO I think your RES numbers are way high and PS way low and BG a little high, but BG can
vary from 2500 to significantly higher 60,000.

Wonder how far off I am?

AP

Looked at some google stuff:

PS 4,000-7,000
BG 1,000-60,000
Nothing on RES yet

TJ, here's two of the sites I saw on RES.
http://ucce.ucdavis.edu/datastore/datastoreview/showpage.cfm?usernumber=74&surveynumber=241
http://www.angelfire.com/ia3/fishing/redearsunfish.htm

Bluegill
http://www.wildlifedepartment.com/species/bluegillsunfish.htm

9,000 - 80,000? Well, that's leaving little room for error! I'm confused, on the surface according to the info you provided and I found it sounds as if PS would be a better companion sunfish than RES topping out at 80,000 eggs? I have to be missing something.

I agree TJ, I'm waiting for the experts to enlighten us.

cheep cheep cheep

Think of all the things that effect a population. Survival , food , reproductive success , predation etc. My guess is RES have the ability to spawn at the numbers below but may have a different population survival mechanism. The biologic goal of a species is survival to an age which allows them to reproduce the next generation (species fitness - Biologists define fitness as the genetic contribution of an individual to future generations, and it is typically measured as the number of offspring that reach reproductive age and condition). Different species achieve this through different means. Some have lots of babies (not just capacity but actual) while others have only a few but with high survival rates. The question I have is why are RES among all the lepomis the one with the different method. It could be that they slow/stop reproduction based on food availability.


From efish - http://www.cnr.vt.edu/efish/families/redearsun.html

Reproductive Habits:
• Mature at age 1 or 2
• Spawning occurs spring to mid-summer
• Nest in colonies near vegetation in shallow water
• Fecundity is 15,001-30,144 eggs per female per year
• Hybridizes with other sunfish

There are other sources that put the #s a little lower around 7500.

The key is with all the data on BG and PS and GSF that establish their propensity to stunt there is no such indication of that in RES. No studies that I have seen and no anecdotal evidence through observation - which we can find yet.

Thanks Eric - appreciate the enlightenment and I understand your take on this. Looking at fecundity alone does not provide enough information to determine role that fish will play in the ecosystem of the pond. That's what was tripping us up.

FYI AP - the source Eric provides says:

BG: 80k annual [could be over a few spawns?]
RES: See Eric above - 15-30k
PS: 1-2k

My summary -
1. Estimating fecundity isn't easy and "depends" on many different factors [density of population, available forage, water quality, etc.] as I've seen these numbers swing significantly in both directions for each species.
2. Criteria for choosing a suitable companion sunfish for SMB or other limited gape predators [YP, HSB] should be based on more than fecundity.
3. Of the sunfish species considered pond worthy [attain harvestable size, provide angling opportunities, etc.] it seems only the RES has never reportedly overpopulated and experienced stunting which makes them a suitable choice in certain situations - such as BOWs where predators have a limited gape.

What do you think?

Thanks for the info Eric, It seems the more info we get the more questions I have, maybe using some brain cells will help off set getting Alzheimer's.

TJ, "IT ALL DEPENDS", probably the best phrase ever uttered on this site and seems to apply to this topic.
My uneducated opinion is that PS's being more tolerant of temp. extremes, especially up north, combined with withstanding wide PH fluctuations, and possibly lower O2 requirements allow them to survive where RES & BG are marginal allowing them to keep multiplying.
There's probably lots of holes in that statement and I would like to hear them.