Recently a member here posted some pics of an amazing deer he took on this forum. There has been some very civil and adult debate resulting about hunting (which may be a bit OT but definitely part of land management). Rather then take his post yet further from its intent I thought I would post this stand alone. This is my attempt to explain as hunters, why we hunt.

Why We Hunt, By Jack Spirko

I am going to attempt the best I know how to explain why we hunt in a way where some that do not might begin to understand hunters a little better. Like any real attempt to explain something to someone who has not done it this one will be via a story.

I started hunting at 13 both with the gun and with the bow. and by the time I was 15 I had taken two bucks with a gun and two doe with the bow. That year I committed to getting a rack buck with the bow if it took all season. At that time archery season in PA was 4 weeks long and I hunted every single day. It is a big commitment for a 15 year old to spend that much time in a 2x2 platform in a tree in rain, heat, cold etc but I did it and was still hunting the second to the last day of the season.

In my first two season I scored early in Archery Season so I had not experienced seeing the fall shift into winter and watched all the animals change patterns etc. In this long season I had seen many deer some very close I could not shoot many were does I choose to pass on. On this day my uncle did some rattling behind me and it worked. A 7 point buck tried to sneak in to see what was up and crossed me as he did. I took a very long shot for me (about 27 yards) the buck was almost angling directly away from me leaving me a very small target to angle the arrow from behind into his chest.

3 years of dedicated practice came to full fruition on this day. Those hours and hours of shooting hay bails off our roof had come to be worth every sacrificed video game and screw off hour they had cost. The shot was beyond perfect! It sneaked past the surrounding brush and sliced perfectly into the chest from behind. He ran about 150 yards and was down when I found him dead. I got to him quite ahead of my uncle and when I bent down to admire my kill there were tears in my eyes. I was happy, real happy but they were not tears of joy. I was a little sad for the deer as I am for any animal when I take its life but not enough to cry. I had already taken bigger bucks with the gun so it was not that the deer was so amazing or anything.

Something got to me and I did not know what. I did not want to be seen as some kid who got upset so I did the old wipe your eyes on your sleeve and got on with field dressing before my uncle got there. It was a long drag out to the road (about 3 miles) and by the time I got home all we did was hang up the deer, I took a shower, ate a bit of food and was out like a light. Over the next few days I began to understand why I had that moment but it would be years before I could put it into words so that others could understand. At 15 I just did not have the life experience to put it into context.

The reality was at that moment a lot of things had come to a head all at once. I knew for instance my uncle and all his friends would stop calling me "kid" I had now sort of graduated into being their equal having taken a rack buck with the bow was something even some of them had yet to do. I had proven myself by sticking to it for 4 strait weeks and when the moment came I did not choke or get the shakes I made what is to this day probably the most difficult shot I have ever taken with a bow at big game. After about a month in the bush I had come to know the animals more so then before and felt connected to it in a way that is hard to understand.

I had listened to the grouse drumming because they were drunk on fermented fox grapes and thought it was spring. I had watched squirrels run up and down the tree I was in never knowing I was there, I had more then one chickadee land on my arrow and look at my gray blob form with curious eyes but no real fear. I watched the leave go from green to orange and yellow then to brown and then fall to the ground. I had in some ways become part of the bush and when I took that deer it was now in a way a part of who I was and what I had become. In other words I was part of those woods at that point and in killing the deer a part of me died too. Additionally for the first time I came to an inner understanding of what and who I was.

I was not Jack Spirko some kid in Schuylkill County PA trying to figure out my life. I was for the first time truly at peace with the fact that I am indeed part of the wild world I had always loved, my place was as both a protector and as a predator and in the right place and time indeed I am even potential prey. In that moment at the side of that beautiful deer I became aware of all of this and more. I could not explain it but that is where the tears came from in short it was about realizing who I was and my place in the universe.

I also know that today that deer has lived more as a memory then he could have in the bush. In about 5 more years if no one would have shot him his teeth would have been gone and he would have starved in a very cold Pennsylvania winter. Yet today his antlers are on my walls and I have told his story a hundred times. I can't tell you the exact day I shot him as in Oct what ever. But I can tell you I was 15, it was the second to the last day of the season and that I shot a deer that changed me in a way that has continued to impact my life. That it still fuels my undying dedication to preserve the wilderness and our outdoor traditions even today more then 20 years later. The day will always be "the day of the deer", time and dates don't matter just the memory of something special that can never be taken away, cheapened or packaged for sale. It is mine and it can only ever be for me and for those I share it with, there are few things that live in a man's heart that way.

The day he takes a wife, has a child and the day of the deer all have a great deal in common.

That is the best I can do, I don't know if it really helps a non hunter to understand but that my friends at least for me is why we hunt,

Very nice post, Jack.

I'd like to ad a couple of thoughts.

1. A Spanish philosopher named Garcia Y Robertson (or Garcia Y Vega or something like that) stated "We do not hunt to kill, but rather kill to have hunted."

2. I never fall asleep as contented as when I have just put meat (or fish fillets) in the freezer. I believe it's 3 million years of genetically reinforced learning, genes that got passed on by making sure there was food for their next carriers to eat. Anti's may say that this makes me primitive; I think we all share the same genes and only some care to recognize and embrace them.

Very well said, Jack. Brought back memories of my younger years.

Very nice way to describe why we hunt and you capture much of that reason. One adder, I attribute my many days and hours fishing and hunting when I was a kid as something that kept me out of trouble and gave me a challenge that helped me grow up both physically and emotionally. It also taught me lots of skills. I spent all my spare time from age 12 to 24 doing something related to hunting or fishing. Many of those hours were with my dad. We made hunting blinds, decoys and other stuff we needed. We practiced shooting, calling and other hunting skills. The actual act of hunting was only a small portion of the experience. I think for every hour hunting I spent 100 hours working toward the hunt. I also felt like I became part of the wild world that I loved so much. I come from a family of hunters and I was accepted as one of the guys when I began to hunt. I helped to get several nephews into hunting. They are all grown up and none of the three hunt anymore but they have all told me that the time we spent practicing and hunting were their all time most memorable things as they grew up. I was of course their favorite uncle. I also like to just watch wildlife and shoot them with a camera. But somehow I don't think any of those three boys would have been as interested in nature watching as they were in hunting.

No one loves wildlife more than the hunter. Ted Nugents the "Great White Buffalo" always comes to mind. It was not the hunter that drove the buffalo to the brink of extinction. It was the bussiness man.

If you have an endangered species, open a season on it. Hunters put their money (and time) where their mouth is. Before long, that endangered species will be thriving at maximum carrying capacity with a generous bas limit.

Wildlife in America is not supported by the government or animal lovers either for that matter. Most game management agencies are almost 100% hunter revenue supported with the exception of water fowl. At least they were when I did a paper on the subject in school. Habitat development, supplemental food sources, almost every aspect of wildlife management you can think of comes from license revenue.

It is sooo ridiculous how wives refuse to understand or appreciate that our outdoor activities such as hunting and fishing revolve around putting meat on the table and in otherwise providing for the welfare of our families. They somehow convince themselves that we actually ENJOY getting up at 3:00 AM in the freezing cold to get into a deer blind, or slave away much of our lives at a job in order to afford a $30,000 bass boat, or invest in land so that we can have ponds - all in order to better care for our families. Forgive me for dumping on you guys but sometimes I feel so unappreciated that I just have to let it out.

Pond Law!

I'm with Dudley. My wife would never understand or appreciate me spending $30,000 for a bass boat just to provide for the welfare of the family. Women are just like that.

poseidon, you reading this? I do not think you are an anti hunter either. As you can see we are passionate about our pursuit of game. Since you love wildlife you are in our camp. You will help protect land from succumbing to developmentinto another shoping mall.

Jack great job! I too cried more than once agfter killing one and try to hide that fact. I was in a hurry to post the other day b/c heading out of town, to go hunting of course.

Just to add...As kids there is nothing better than taking kids fishing and hunting. It allows bonding and keeps kids out of trouble. I dream (literally) of the fun I will have taking my son. If for some reason he does not want to hunt I will not force but think I hope we can spend many hours togther in the woods and on the water.

Also on meat, Poseidon again agree with you on use of meat. Just b/c you see someone in a pic with a big buck does not mean they did not eat the meat. If folks do not use the meat I consider that poaching and right along with you on attitude of that disgusting behavoir. I have NEVER been in company with hunter that does not eat his game. In fact look into hunters for the hungry, many states process tons of deer to feed the needy at the cost of again hunter dollars.

Men are a predatory species. We can't help it, that's just what we are. If we don't hunt, our predatory instincts will be manifested in one way or another. If our instincts are not satisfied, we may exhibit strange behavior, like stabbing at meat on our plates or burning ants with a magnifying glass.

Deer, birds, and cute rodents are prey species. They surely know this, and breed prolifically to compensate. Most will be chased and killed within a year or 2 of birth. If we don't harvest them, another predator will, and probably not as humanely. If not predated, they will very soon overpopulate, and many will succumb to starvation, disease, and retrograde genetics.

Since I began hunting at 10, I instinctively gave thanks when I killed an animal. I still do.

Felis, canis, birds of prey, etc are not prey species. There is little to no justification for killing them. Sometimes you have no choice. This is an act of war, not predation. (that's another man-thing subject) So be it.

If someone kills an animal on my land, I sincerely hope it's edible, if you know what I mean.

I don't consider myself a hunter, but I destroy overpopulated prey on my farm. I don't eat the meat, because I don't need it. I let the night animals get their easy meal, and they are happy.

Yes, I'm here. Outnumbered and beaten, but still here.

Again, I know no one will change their opinion based on this thread. I look at the hunting thing from the deers perspective. They have a right to walk around in their home without being shot at. I can only imagine the pain of having an arrow through the chest, or a bullet hole through the neck, and trying to run away until you bleed to death. I am sure that after a few kills, you get numb to this. I just can't.

Yes, it would be great to have a couple of hundred pounds of free meat in the freezer. Yes, I want to bond with my kids as much as anyone else. I like to fish. I love shooting. I have killed several animals to stop their suffering. I eat meat that someone else has killed. I just could not look into a big healthy animals eyes and kill it in the name of sport.

If you eat what you kill, it is justified. If there really is an over population issue, then something has to be done, but I think this excuse is used too often. I know too many people who hunt for the kill, not the food. That just don't seem right.

I guess what I want to say is that I'm just too soft hearted to hunt. Call me wimpy, OK. I would just rather watch the deers eat the corn and salt that I put out. Don't hold it against me, and I won't hold hunting against you. Unless you are the one hunting for the kill.

Truce.

By the way, it looks like I'm the only one on PondBoss with this opinion. Is there not ONE other person on my side? Or are you just too smart to speak up?

Posiedon, whitetail deer are a very prolific species, typically a third of the population can be killed every year and it will rebound back to where it was the following year, twins are very common with whitetails and does can start breeding at 6 months of age. Without some thinning every fall whitetail deer numbers can get out of control in a very short time, much like your prey species of fish in a pond where there are just too few predators in the pond. Like the fish in our ponds, deer are a very renewable resource, personally I think they are much tastier than any of the fish in our ponds. In addition, last week I heard that there had been 276 reported vehicle deer collisions this year so far in Lancaster Co. where Lincoln is located.

I am reminded of the first squirrel hunting expedition I took my older son on at about age 10. It was behind my in-laws house in a small woods. I knocked one out of a tree, and my son had to finish him on the ground. We brought it back with chests stuck out; pondered whether to clean the 1 squirrel. Ended up burying him and had a funeral. Still get laughs about it to this day at family get togethers.

I'm right there with you, Poseidon. I've never been a hunter and most likely never will be.

I do eat meat and wear/use leather. I just don't want to do the killing.

When I was an early teenager, I got a BB gun. Man, I shot everything....birds, frogs, snakes, rabbits, etc.

Then one day, I just felt a huge amount of regret and couldn't do it anymore.

I used to keep Steelhead Trout that I caught in Erie, PA. Now I don't keep any, but I'll still eat the smoked trout.

I still dispose of bullheads caugt in my pond by throwing them up on shore. Same goes for the occasional Black Crappie. I don't feel much regret there.

I have accepted my hypocritical ways when it comes to hunting & eating meat (and disposal of bullheads). I'm OK with it, and I can sleep at night.

I also feel that there are some methods of hunting that are more challenging than others. Archery is more challenging than modern rifle. The bowie knife is more challenging than archery.

Shooting a bear who comes up to a chum pot is not very challenging in my opinion.

I've got nothing against moral hunters; I just can't do it.

BM, to make it worth while to clean them you need to take bigger squirrels, like this one my buddy Joe and I got last year:

Which one are you in the pic?

ROFLMAO!!!

Theo, now that I'm in Texas, I can do that. This was just a little ole 10# Miss. gray squirrel.

I'll jump in. I'm not a hunter, but I let a couple of friends hunt on my property. They're country boys and eat the meat, or give it to friends that need it. Not wanting to be confrontational, but I just don't understand how anyone can justify killing bears, lions elephants, etc "for sport". But, that what makes this country great - you don't have to justify it. Hey, I like to play golf -how wierd is that?

Theo,
NOW THAT's FUNNY!

Gotta admit; I'm not much of a Sportsman. I don't let anybody shoot anything on my place that they aren't going to eat. OK, I make an exception of crows and hogs.

poseidon, not getting on your case, I'm really not IN fact your not wimpy at all you got guts to admit your attitude and stand here and take it like a man, I admire you for that.

However want to challenge one thing you said. You see folks that do not hunt seem to consider how can you shot an animal in the chest and have it run off in pain. How do you know that is how they feel? Have shot numerous deer that simple jump then go back to eating or chasing a doe or whatever they never knew they were hit. I joke with my wife when I'm old and sick simply have a bow hunter shot me when I;m not looking, that is sick I know but have said it b.c the way I have seen deer react. If they did know do they were hit do they have the brain capacity or whatever to think they are about to die.

One other point, it is a very naive to think the deer you feed are going to live a wonderful life by you feeding them corn, they will die somehow right, coyote, car, disease, get sick with old age, etc. Why not a arrow or bullet. I understand you can not yourself going to shot them not trying to change your thoughts, just trying to get you thinking somemore on what REALLY happens to all the animals you feed and how the killing of like shorty said surplus animals is more than a "sport".

Greg, Did you ever step on your dog's tail? Did he yelp? How do you know it really hurt? I don't know how to answer "how do I know if a deer feels pain"? I don't think anyone would deny that a deer is a high enough form of life to feel pain, and it is my assumption that the deer feels the same amount of pain that you or I would if we were hit by a bullet or an arrow. The difference is that the deer doesn't understand that they have been shot. They don't associate the pain with the hunter. Their instinct is to run away from the hunter, and I imagine it hurts to run with an arrow in your thigh. Why don't I feel the same way about pulling the hook out of a fish? I guess I don't think the fish feels the pain like a mammal does. If they do, they don't convey it to me. Or maybe, like hunters, I'm just used to it. Your arguement "they're going to die from something anyway" holds true for all of us doesn't it? Glad you aren't a doctor.

As for standing up and taking it, well, maybe I should have known better than opening my mouth about hunting on a outdoor-guy-type forum, but this has turned into a great discussion. I admit that I have a better understanding of the several different viewpoints. I'll just keep shooting targets.

I hunt because I can't remember where in the devil I left it last! :p

I've loved to hunt pheasants since I was a teenager. I honestly can't think of anything I'd rather do than sneak up on and execute a clean kill on a ringneck.

I have a hygienist who is a very loving, kind, softhearted animal lover who has recently befriended a wild dog that she found living in a local park. Read the following link.

http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2006/11/12/local/doc45565fbdc12a9484524172.txt

What is really interesting is that this dog-- that's she invested so much energy and time and emotion in--has taken to killing her pet birds when she's away. Twice she's come into the office in tears because, as she puts it, "My dog accidentally killed my bird".

Now trust me, the semi-wild dog that she brought home isn't doing anything by "accident". It's killing the birds because it is genetically and evolutionarily programmed to do so. Does it make this dog morally bankrupt to kill her birds? It doesn't need to kill them to eat. It has ample food in it's bowl every day. It kills the birds because that's what it does.

I'm the same as that dog. I don't have to kill. I can choose not to, which I often do. I can even take thousands of my own hard earned dollars and create habitat on my farm which has turned it from a wasteland into a haven for dozens of deer, which I have. But I'm still hardwired to kill.

Many can claim that they are better than me because they don't kill, or that they've denied, hidden or absorbed this hardwiring. That's fine with me. But I yam what I yam, and I'll always be that way.

Now back to my love for pheasant hunting. The last five weeks I've been spreading a little corn that I got from Tractor Supply Company on a bare patch near a food plot that I started this year. This big ol' wrangly ringneck has been spending an hour or two each day munching on that corn. Yesterday I threw a shotgun on my shoulder and walked up to that barespot. That ringneck never saw me comin' and he busted up about eight feet in front of me. I dropped the gun on him---and by golly instead of shooting I just lipped the words "bang-bang" and let him go.

I've taken ownership in this bird. I like him, and in a way I love him. I couldn't bare to kill him, or worse yet break his leg and watch him fly off with a dangler. It was one of the greatest moments of my life and I don't really know precisely why. I just know it felt good. If I'm lucky and God smiles on me again I'll watch him fly off a few more times this winter.

Go figure.

By the way...thanks, Poseiden for a good thread. Just don't take anything personally that we say and you'll be all right. I'm learning from both sides. The key to it all is to not turn opinions into insults. It's a fine line between the two, and when people get passionate about their feelings, it's easy to sound offensive. That's why they tell us dentists to not discuss politics or religion. It's a lot easier to make an enemy than a friend. The "glad you aren't a doctor" comment crosses the line from constructive discussion to taking a jab at somebody. That's where these things always go wrong. I almost locked this thread a while ago, but I had great faith in the people of this forum to have a good cold weather discussion without it becoming inflammatory. In my very, very humble opinion, this discussion could be about to turn south.

Hey, Bruce it looks like you got "partially moderated -I know how it feels. "They" got me last week on the "Canada" thread......
Seriously, your 8:52 PM post was extremely well presented and even though I am on the other side, I respect yours & Greg's opinion and all the hunters rights. Like my Dad use to say "if everybody liked the same thing they'd be living at our house".
You'r probably right about the direction of this thread, but fear not, because usually one post from me is enough to kill any thread....

Frankly, this thread has not been too controversial.

You can only state your own thoughts.

You cannot challenge anyone else's.

I agree with that to a certain extent, but I have had people explain their feelings to me in an intelligent manner, and softened my stance a little, only to find out years later that I had completely changed my opinion.

I completely agree that I'll likely never totally change someone's opinion with an argument, but I really enjoy the discourse when it's kept non-confrontational. Actually I don't reallly want to change their opinion. I just don't want my rights to ever be taken away, so I like to let others know how much I value certain freedoms. Recently I met a Colorado football fan who stated that Nebraska fans always need "patted on the back" for how great they are. Well I knew that was one argument I didn't need to participate in. For once in my life I left well enough alone and took a quick exit.

I don't mind anyone here who doesn't agree with my desire to hunt, you're all great guys as far as I can see. Not intending to support hunting or not I'd just like to make an observation about animals and pain. I too have seen many animals that have been shot, hit by a car, or hurt in some way. Some of them were wild animals some were domestic. I believe an animal feels bad pain at first and then has some special ability to shut it down. I don't think this theory is physiologically impossible. I know an animal can feel minor pain for long periods but somehow when it's major it can be shut down. I've seen animals with tremendous bodily damage and within minutes or perhaps hours they go about life as if nothing happened other than some disability. Perhaps people can do that too, I don't think I've ever been fatally wounded, LOL. I do know that most animals eventually die a very gruesome death, maybe it's even painful. Might as well be my bullet but if others prefer not to do that I understand. Great story about the pheasant Bruce. Some time I tell you about when I did the exact same thing and he died anyway.

Bruce, maybe what I meant to say is that when someone feels very strongly about something, another person should not challenge them and try to convince them otherwise; for if someone does, they are most likely foolish to believe that they are in the right, as if there is only one "right" way.

I have not been offended by anyone's comments here on this thread, but if anyone mentions the scene from the 80's movie "Red Dawn" where the kid shoots the deer and then drinks some of it's blood......well, anyway...

What were we talking about??

Arguing with a hunter about hunting is a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig. After a while you realize, he just likes it.

Ever been through Amarillo? Don't pity the deer that spends its whole life running free doing what God created it to do. Pity the cow that spends its life on a 10’ high pile of cow manure up to its knees. BTW, I love a good steak.

Man is not the dominant predator, he’s just plain dominant. A dominance that bares with it an awesome responsibility to not only take care of our environment but all the other creatures that God created within it. That includes those that fill a need, such as food, clothing, companionship, sport, etc. but also those that don’t. If we don’t we’ll lose them forever.

Nature can control its own, but the results are sometimes less than desired and sometimes so seemingly cruel and inhumane as to melt even the hardest heart . When populations exceed the natural carrying capacity of the land, disease and starvation take over. The alternative is a much more civilized approach. Manage the populations of both predator and prey to a healthy optimal maximum. Sometimes this means transplanting animals to establish new populations and many times it means reducing the population to maintain the optimal. We could use tax money to hire paid professionals to just go in and thin the herd, or we could sell licenses and let individuals do it. We can take that revenue and use to provide research and habitat to benefit not only that species but all animals living within that ecosystem.

As for trying to figure out how a deer feels, you can’t. We have reason, emotion, regret and a host of other wonderful gifts that God gave to man that animals don’t have. When we try to equate people with animals, the world stops making sense. Animals don’t have rights. People have responsibility.

Bruce thanks for comment, that is why I hate writing vs. talking to someone. You can not, at least I can not, express tone in writing. I have been civil and thought the Dr. comment was not in line either.

I was simply trying to releate a personal story that maybe they do sense pain but with perfectly placed arrow seem to not feel anything simply fall over dead a little later. This in contratst to his view point that they run off in pain.

I'm not trying to change anyones stance just letting nonhunters see it is not as black and white as it seems to be. Hunters we need the support of non hunters to help preserve our heritage. The antihunters no chance changing their minds.

Wow since I started this let me chime in with one more angle.

I think that there is a big difference between people that

1. Are simply non hunters
2. Don't like hunting
3. Are anti hunters

What I see here at pond boss other then those that hunt themselves seem to be #1 and #2. I have yet to see a true Anti Hunter. To me and Anti is someone who actually has an objective to outlaw hunting and is actively engaged in promoting it.

Anti's are generally very poorly informed about wild life and management of it. They don't understand hard facts like starvation. They don't get that any deer that grows old enough starves in the wild no matter how much food there is.

Anti's can't grasp the fact that Pennsylvania is the most heavily hunted deer state in the US and yet it has a deer heard that grew from 900,000 animals in the mid 80s to more then 1.6 Million today.

Like I said we don't seem to have any of them here which makes a LOT of sense. Land managers tend to understand to much reality to not grasp logic.

Many non hunters or people that really don't like hunting don't want to hunt and they don't want to see it. They won't allow it on their land but they make NO EFFORT to try to outlaw hunting and would not VOTE for someone with the goal to take away all guns and all hunting.

I don't think most hunters have much of an issue with these people personally. What hunters are is hyper sensitive as a group taking many non hunters to be anti hunters. There is good reason for it.

Go back and read my orginal post. That is what hunting is to many of us. It is a way of life and a tradition we dearly love. No one loves the wild life more the the hunter.

Spare me the stories about the yahoos cutting off horns and being jerks. They are less then 1/10 of 1% of people that call themselves hunters. Trust me such jerks have far more to fear from real hunters then from anti hunters if we happen to see them. A call to the warden is the minimum result a good old fashioned butt kicking may be the other option.

We are hypersensitive as a group because there is a REAL THREAT to our way of life out there. Our fear with people who are just non hunters and don't like hunting is they may stand by and allow us to loose our fight because they do not understand it.

Money is what fuels this fight. We (hunters) put our money into wild life management and preservation. Anti's put their money into stopping us from hunting. They are fueled by clueless celebrities who back groups like PETA (who kills thousands of dogs each year by the way).

My post was an attempt to let those who are non hunters or just don't like it possibly understand it better. Not a call for you to pick up a gun or a bow and join me in the woods. Hunters like solitude trust me we don't need more company especially on public land.

We seek

1. To be understood
2. For our rights to be protected

If you look at the success of any animal in the US over the last 100 years (game and non game) it is a direct result of hunters, their money and their efforts. We love the land, we love our nation and above all we love knowing our place in nature.

Hunting vs. Non Hunting debates are never about converting people and getting them to hunt too. It is simply about the fact that we don't want to loose something that means so much to us. We are dedicated people that have more love for the wild then anyone in a group like PETA ever could.

We in short simply seek to be understood and allowed to retain the rights to the land and the game that are part of the foundation of our nation,

Well said Jack! My hat is off to you for putting such heartfelt feelings & beliefs into words.

YOu preach it brother! 100% agree witcha Jack

Greg, I retract the "glad you're not a doctor" remark. It was my first response to "they are going to die anyway". I felt like the Aflac duck when Yogi Berra says "Cash is just as good as money".

Bruce, thanks for not killing the thread. I think this has been one of the most enlightening threads that didn't directly address ponds and lakes. I hope I haven't offended anyone, and rest assured I haven't been.

Jack, sign me up for #2. Don't like to hunt, but love a good steak.

poseidon 10-4 and believe me lots of folks are glad I'm not an MD. ALthough I can extract an ocular nematode from a bluegill pretty dang quick. That is always a hit when the shock crowd is gathered.

Greg Grimes, Icthyo-opthamological Surgeon.

I feel 99% the same way as you.

The way I see it, If you don't feel sorrow and empathy for the deer, you have no right to harvest it. I think every true sportsman feels a little remorse, guilt, pain, or whatever for his game. If he doesn't, he doesn't, he shouldn't be trusted with a rifle.

The deer (or insert any game species here) have evolved the way they are because of predation pressure. If they are not predated, their muscles will become flabby; their senses dulled. Since there are few predators, we are doing prey species a favor by hunting.

Yes, I know that sounds like spin to justify the horrible sport of hunting. But the facts are, we are hunters, and the deer are prey species. We didn't make it so. It has always been so. It's not our place to change it.

Just an interesting side note, that has no direct bearing really on the discussion, but interesting nonetheless...

In the 1800's there were scientists who made a series of measurements on the American bison. They measured such things as femur length, average weight, height etc. etc.

Currently, the population of bison is larger and more robust than the animals of the 1800's, presumably because the weaker animals were invariably the first killed during the great bison slaughter.

Just a guess, but I'll bet todays animals are smarter, too.

...and just making an educated guess, but I'll bet this issue has been whipped, beaten, hashed and rehashed thousands of times on hundreds of forums, and I'll bet this is the most civil one ever. I like it.

Bruce

I agree this has been a very civil discussion and probally the most civil I have ever seen on this subject.

On the Buffalo thing. There is a huge misconception that "hunting" was the cause of their almost extinction. This is not the case, it was not sport hunting, settlers feeding themselves or ever true market hunting that almost eliminated all the bison.

It was wholesale killing like no species has ever experienced before. There were so many bison there was no way to use all the meat or hides on market. So why were they all killed?

Government subsudies! One of the very first of these things that mispend tax dollars. You see we were still fighting wars with the Native Americans when the buffs still roamed. Bison meant food for the Indians and much of what was left of the resistance was being fed off mostly bison.

With no bison the mid west was a hard place to live for the Indians. So hard it was the biggest thing that led them to taking treaties and moving to reservations for the promise of some land and BEEF!

As sport and meat hunting pushed the buffs to smaller more scattered heards the Native Americans began to fold in some areas. So our government decided to wipe out the buffs to break the Indians everywhere. It worked! It may be a very sad part of US History and something we can wish never happened but it is what happened and why.

Even market hunting alone would never have pushed the bison to the edge alone. Also have you noticed there are deer, elk, etc all through the same ranges the bison used to live in but still to this day there are very few heards of true free range bison.

Why? Cattle ranches, bison in numbers are competitors for the cattle to graze.

So the desire to win the Indian Wars cause the bison to be culled to next to nothing and cattle ranches have kept them low in true wild populations.

If we just started dumping bison from breeding operations in the great plains at random and did so for 10-20 years it would only be perhaps 3 full decades before there would be MILLIONS of them again.

I tried to bite my tongue, but...
Buffalo, strange that a controversial topic would have as an example another controversial topic. There seems to be no evidence that the government directly contributed to the demise of the buffalo (almost everything else did through, weather, disease, ranchers, etc.). They failed to pass legislation that would have help save them at an earlier date, but other than that, they did very little. The Indian would have eventually killed them off as they were killing more than were being reproduced, in the 1700s the Spanish were trying to convince them that they needed to be more resourceful. We western European types accelerated the process and with a profit. Ironically the saving of the buffalo was also based on a profit.

No one can win on the buffalo debate, because most historians disagree with each other who caused the demise of the native bison. We can only learn from the past, but I don't see that happening. Many people, including americans, are moving farm operations to Brazil, to destroy their pristine native habitat. The new frontier as they call it.

Back to hunting. I saw a nature show on the wolves. And it showed them killing a bison. It took hours to kill the animal, practically eating away at it while it was alive.

Lance, I watch a lot of those animal shows and have seen lions doing that. It's pretty disturbing, but IMHO there is a "shock" mechanism that kicks in with animals (and humans) that helps to mute the pain in extreme situations - like when those poor people lept from the Towers during 9/11. Don't have any facts, but that is what I choose to believe.

DD1 ask me to post this but I can't get the middle 1/3 of the panoramic pic to copy or save. If one of you pic whizzes want to try let me know and I will send it to you for a try.

Dinner Time in Eagle River, Wisconsin


These people living in Northern Wisconsin put some corn out in the

dead of winter to sustain the area deer.


When I said the deer up here were as thick as cats and dogs, I

wasn't far off. Wisconsin community of Eagle River

Taking down 50 deer before you need to reload: priceless