Hello all! I am working on some exerpts from our catalog, customers, and an actual case study done just last year by the West Virginia Department of Biology, West Virginia State College Institute in West Virginia on the Georgia Giant. Hopefully, time willing, I will get some info out there on the Giants that you might not be familiar with. Presently we have them growing in every state but Alaska and Hawaii, so nobody should hesitate to ask for a catalog if you want one. Ken is not the most computer savvy person around, so I will be the "presence" on the site. Ken's desk is beside me, and all questions will be diverted to him. Together we will attempt to help in anyway possible.
This is a REALLY neat forum. I want to take a moment to thank all of you for including us. I never knew you were here, but I have already learned alot by just reading past posts.
Thanks again,
Deb
Hey Deb I will start off, every time Georgia giants come up on the board the debate is whether they are the standard hybrid mix of bluegill/green sunfish. Is this correct or not?
Not by a long shot. Ken spent 10 years going through trial and error with several different combinations in several different experimental ponds. In fact, if I am not mistaken he tripped up on the Georgia Giant right before Mrs. Judye kicked him out of the house for having spent all the money on research. If the Georgia Giant were indeed the same standard hybrid then there would be no need for discussion. As of yet I do not have the exact "recipe" for this fish, but hopefully one day I will earn that right. Ken and Jason keep pretty tight lipped on this one, but it involves several different fish. Sometimes I have wondered if he put piranha in there due to the aggressiveness. O'Neal Williams (O'Neal outdoors) filmed a show at one of our customer's ponds last Spring in Tifton, and had the Giants hitting every other hook. These were 1 1/2 pounders that were right at a year old.
But back to your question, nope! They are not the standard hybrid, they do reproduce, they will eventually crossbreed should you have other bluegill in the pond,they do degenerate over a 10 generation period (that is why predators need to be introduced within a 6 month to one year time) and they don't strangely turn into little green sunfish. Good fiction novel in the works for that one though, "Attack of the Giant Georgia Green Sunfish" :p .
Thanks for getting me starting on a soap box (and to think, you only asked one question)!!!
Deb
Deb,
Do you have, or would you be willing to post a clear, side view photograph of an adult Georgia Giant of at least 400 grams? If you don't have the ability to make this sort of post would you be willing to email me a photo of one?
Bruce Condello
P.S. I would prefer that it weren't the photo of "Bubba" the five pounder. I've shown that picture to every fisheries biologist I've ever known. Opinions have already been formulated on that fish.
Opinions are formulated on anything that appears to be a freak of nature. "Bubba" as you called him was an old fish. I have a few pictures in my Kodak program, but I cannot get them to paste. Since you are familiar with this setup, can I email them to you and then have you post them?
Deb
Bruce, I will take some pictures at the farm this weekend and put them on CD and try to get someone help me post them, if Ken does not
Thanks for doing that, Deb.
bmcondello@bizfunctional.com
Thanks as well to you, Bill. Quite honestly, if I were to ever include this fish in my repertoir, I'd need a good picture of the fish.
Deb, Do first year spawns of the georgia giants have the same growth pontential as the original stockers?
This thread should get very interesting. If these fish revert in 10 generations, what fish should I expect to see in my pond over time ?
Deb, One more question,how many years is 10 generations removed from the originals(are you talking 100 years).Just kidding,I guessed its based on your growing season in Georgia.But really how long did it take to confirm 10 generations?
Hey! Good questions! As you can probably tell by now, I tend to ramble on so I won't start answering right away. I am already almost late in picking my son up to go to the beach for the weekend (a wedding
), but I will be glad to pick up this topic in depth Monday AM (or Sunday PM if I get back early enough).
Thanks again to all of you for welcoming us! I am excited about what all I can learn. Talk to you all after the weekend.
Deb
P.S. To any of you in the Tx and La area I wish you Godspeed with this storm. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your families.
Debra I will toss you a couple of questions which will come up sooner or later. Your stocking rates, according to your catalog(mines probably two years old)you recommend up to 3000(does it now say 5000) Georgia Giants per acre in a fed pond. This is about 4 to 6 times what most of the pros here recommend. Why the huge difference in stocking rates? It has also been suggested that your high stocking rates are just so you can sell more fish. Have you ever sold 10,000 per acre?
Also in Kens first post he said something about sterile smallmouth bass, tell us more, Are you'll selling these.
Deb - I have another question to add to your list. Do you people have any accurate data (no guessing or estimates) as to the percentage of males vs females that occurs in a typical hatch (F1 fish) from your bream cross?. Has the ratio of males to females ever been validated and if so by who. Plus Do you have any photos of F1 males and F1 females?.
The number of questions for you and your "group" could build up to an sizable number by the time you return after the weekend. Since you are probably busy each day with your normal tasks, I recommend that you try and answer one each day or two.
Hey guys! Lots of questions out there, but that is a good thing. I will try to start at the beginning.
1. Do first year spawns have the same growth potential as the original stockers? No, with each generation they decrease in growth potential
2. Billy Watson asked “How many years is 10 generations removed from the originals (are you talking 100 years)?” Now come on Billy, if it took 100 years to go through 10 generations, wouldn’t that mean that the fish were only bedding every 10 years. Sorry sweetheart, but I have yet to meet a male of any species that would bed only once in a ten year period
. Actually if stocked in the early spring, you might get F-3’s out of the batch before late fall. It all depends on water quality, feed, length of growing season … We have actually had a 3-4” GG with eggs. No joking there! They are amazing little creatures, but that is why it is SO important to introduce predators within a year. If that rule is not followed then you will end up with a pond full of stunted bream (we have all been there).
3. Eastland asked “what fish should I expect to see in my pond over time”. If the stocking program is followed properly, you should never have anything above an F-3 or possible F-4. Bass and crappie (and large cats) are structurally important for a balanced pond. But even if you went all the way to F-10, you will still have a GG, just a stunted one.
4. Bill Duggan asked about large stocking rates. First of all understand that about ½ of our ponds are experimental ponds (we learn day-to-day). We have found however that the Georgia Giants are more aggressive, therefore feeding heavier, when stocked in larger quantities. Our program generally follows this rule:
a) no feed or aeration in pond = do not go over 1000 bream to acre
b) either feed or aeration = do not go over 3000 bream to acre
c) both feed and aeration = up to 5000 to the acre (old numbers)
Herein you must keep in mind that the above stated only works with a well maintained pond. Water quality must be good (and can always be improved), predators must be introduced in a timely manner, and a high protein feed must be used. Now I am sure that half of you need a moment to pick yourselves up off of the floor due to these high numbers, so I will give you a chance to get up. Guys, these numbers have worked for us. Ultimately it is the customer’s responsibility; we are only here for guidance (as are you all). Anyone looking to spend thousands of dollars on their pond/lake would be either very rich or a little crazy (or both) not to do research first. We all have different success and failure stories, but we are here to learn from one another. And the fact that we are all still asking questions usually means we have done enough right to still keep us excited.
As for the 10,000 to the acre I am not familiar with this high of a stocking rate. A customer might have requested this if they were to have a fish-out pond, or were cage raising for wholesale, but again I am unaware of this. Does not mean it did not happen I just have not heard of such.
Bill also asked about sterile smallmouth bass. These are also known as hybrid stripe smallmouth bass and are personally my favorite predator. Reaching a maximum size of about 9 lbs, these little buggers will fight hook and line to the death (not literally). The major benefit of these fish over the largemouth is in the size of the mouth. Once a largemouth gets 2 lbs and larger, they have the potential to eat everything they can fit into their mouth (including the original F-1 Giants). These fish adapt well in water qualities over 51 (hardness and alkalinity), and we generally introduce them into a pond with a bag of sea salt. Just makes the transition easier for them.
5. Bill Cody inquired about sex (that did not come out right)! He inquired about
accurate data as to the percentage of males v/s females. This has never been validated by anyone outside of the hatchery (still varies with batch to batch), but that is a good idea. West Virginia Department of Biology, West Virginia State College Institute in West Virginia did a study on these fish that showed a growth rate 4 times that of the standard bluegill. They came down and purchased the 1-2” Georgia Giants (posing as regular customers) without our knowing of their research project. Then they returned several months later with a huge booklet stating the data they had come up with. WOW! We didn’t even know some of the things they came up with. The study was titled “Diet and Strain Affect Growth, Feed Efficiency, and Retention of Nitrogen and Lysine in Hybrid Bluegill.” It showed, among other things that over a twelve week period the GG had an overall growth rate of four times faster than other hybrid bream, that GG had a higher feed intake than other hybrid bream, and that the GG were more efficient feed consumers than other hybrid bream. This should be a published work that anyone can gain access to via the web.
I hope I did not miss any questions, and I apologize for being a day late in my response time.
Thanks,
Deb
Thanks Deb, that should get it going. I stocked your hybrid stripers just never heard it called Smallmouths. Please anyone see if we can get a link to the West Virginia report.
OK Deb, did you just say the more you stock per acre the faster they grow?
Deb, please verify the name of the college, nothing is showing up on a web search
Hey Bill,
I am at home right now (just got the baby to bed), but will pull the report tommorrow. [Sidekick about babies: isn't the news about Greg great. Boy his life will be forever changed] Back to the report, it was about 50-75 pages (or more) if I remember correctly, so I can't paste it to this site, but I will check things out for you all and try to find a link. Yes, the heavier stocked, the more aggressive they are. But like anything else you can overdo it! On an average 1 acre stock we set it up as follows:
3000 GG
600 channel cats
5000 gambusia minnows
600 large mouth OR 600-1000 smallmouth (6 months to 1 year later)
1 Aqaurius aerator
1 Bug-O-Matic Feeder
1 Automatic feeder (38% protein/22%fish meal pellets)
1 quart ocean blue pond dye (per acre 4 foot deep)
Then we monitor every 6 months with free water tests. We test for pH, ammonia, hardness, and alkalinity. If a customer is having a problem we will test more frequently. When this program has been followed correctly we have had no problems. It is when a customer strays from the original program (no predators, no dye, no testing...) that problems arise. Usually these are the customers that someone has had to "go back on". Not that we do not take responsibility, but you yourself are a testimony to a good program, right? I personally NEVER suggest higher than 3000 to the acre, but some people cage raise for commercial reasons and need more fish. In that case aeration and feed need to be kicked up a notch with the increase in fish stocked. I heard from a customer out of Illinois just this past spring that is catching 4 1/2 lb GG out of a pond he stocked (properly) just four years ago. I will also try to find his name and number and try to get him to post on this thread.
Have a good evening!
Deb
Wow, whats the smallest size pond you would do this stocking in?
E-mailed Greg tonight, told him I am ahead of him, Grandbaby last month
600 largemouth bass per acre?
I can't BELEIVE I am seeing Ken Holyoke on this thang.....
.....next we will be seeing Owen and Williams...
http://fozzy.wvstateu.edu ? a small jc with an aquaculture class offering.
Your plan for succes sure is different from everyone else accross the country
...
3000 GG
600 channel cats
5000 gambusia minnows
600 large mouth OR 600-1000 smallmouth (6 months to 1 year later)
1 Aqaurius aerator
1 Bug-O-Matic Feeder
1 Automatic feeder (38% protein/22%fish meal pellets)
1 quart ocean blue pond dye (per acre 4 foot deep)
This seems Quit heavy to me!!
What is the Blue dye for???
With stocking rates that high.........what do you reccomend as far as numbers of fish to remove per year? That is a staggering amount of fish for an acre?
Georgia Giant Man,
I stocked 300 georgia giant blue gills this past spring from a fish farm in southern Indiana. How do I know I am getting a true georia giant? When I have time I will go down and catch one to post pictures of.
The georgia giants I stocked were around 3" in April. They are now close to three times that size if not more in body weight. The fish are 6 - 7" now and are very aggressive. I caught one the other day on a 4" rapala!
It is great to see a post on the georgia giants. Thanks
One more question. Why so many CC?
I have seen disaster come from overstocking CC. I am assumming alot of heavy cover is part of your management plan. I am just weary about overstocking predator fish.
Thanks in advance for any additional information.
Deb,
Those stocking rates seem insane to me. With 600 CC and 600 LMB it is no wonder the GG's grow so fast. They have NO competition from their offspring ( all would be eaten ). You could stock standard BG with a predator base that high and get just as good growth rates.
Do you tell your customers they need the pond dye? Is the dye to cover up the fact that 600 CC per acre turned their ponds into a turbulent mess?
Need your stocking rates/reasonings explained more in-depth. I was intrigued by the GG's until I started reading last post on stocking. I may be wrong, but it appears to me that you're just another hatchery feeding off the uninformed.
Those stocking rates sound like a coming disaster to me. During a drought it is easy to lose 1/3 of the pond size. The biomass, even with aeration, would be a real problem.
Using those stocking rates, the starting ratio of predator to prey is 6.66 to one. Moreover, what will the fry eat? With the pond dye, phyto and zoo plankton won't make it. One feeder per acre with no plankton? Doesn't sound right.
If I stock 1,000 bluegill in the spring, they become 3,000 or more by fall. Then, predators are absolutely necessary. But not at those rates.
Maybe a professional fish farmer could make it work but I don't believe the average guy could. I'll do it the old fashioned, tried and true, holistic, way and try for a balanced pond.
It is alot of fish but if you assume 25% mortality/fishing after the first year and GG and cats at 1.5 Lbs and Bass at 1 lbs the biomass is 4500 per acre which although is much higher than anything we consider here, it is consistent with what is recommended in their catalog(at the high end) for a fed and aerated pond.
Remember everyone we are discussing maximum stocking rates, I stocked 2500 GG in a 3.5 acre pond and did not get a sales job by Ken to stock more.Ken knew I could not aerate(no power) and I would sometimes go a couple weeks not going to the farm and so maximum stocking was never even discussed.
No offense to anyone, but now I know how Jesus walked on water..........
He had Holyoke stock his pond.
That study was actually published (North American Journal of Aquaculture 66:312-318) just gotta find it somewhere.
Found it...
The Study Well, dangit...jumped the gun. Gotta buy it. The link is just the abstract...anyone a member of the American Fisheries Society???
Originally posted by Georgia Giant Man:
5000 gambusia minnows
Ken,
Why gambusia minnows? I have heard they are bad about egg predation.
Ok slow down boys!
Bill- that is based on a 1 acre WELL maintained pond, and congrats on the g-baby. Is this the first? My son is an only g-baby and is rotten to the core. But that is ok. Mom said if she could have been a grandparent before a parent she would have opted that way. You can give in to everything, and then give them back at the end of the day.
Ross- LM Bass and cats are stocked on a 1 to 5 ratio with the bream due to the reproduction rate on the giants (bedding on full moons during the summer [in South Georgia that is beginning to be year round I think, just kidding!]) As I have stated before you only want original giants plus one to two generations to survive.
Big_pond- Believe it! We are here (we were actually invited). I’ll email O’Neal and see if he wants to come on board. We recommend the dye to color the water darker (18 inches down).
Rad- I’m sorry to have to ask, but what do you mean by jc (it’s too early in the morning)? Ken does offer classes ranging from tank culture through frog farming.
Alabama- I hate to sound vague because you are truly looking for an answer, but it varies from pond to pond. I believe Greg agrees with this statement. If everyone will ponder the predator stock rate again, you will realize that it is not necessary to “remove” a certain percentage every year. That’s what predators are for. The goal is to grow the F-1 GGs as large as you can by allowing the predators to consume offspring.
Aaron- Those were most likely offspring because we did not have a dealer set up in that area until about a month ago (and he is in Muncie). We did stock a heck of a lot of ponds up there, and even sold to a Fish Farm in Dale. Who was the dealer? Cassidy? I can’t say for sure what someone else sold you because I was not there, but if you can tell me who it was I will be able to pull his/her invoices and give you a pretty good idea of what you have. Good job on your pond and happy fishing. Please let us know if we can help any other way, or I can recommend you to our new dealer in Muncie. Also you are correct about the cats causing a potential hazard, but down here in the south that is what a lot of people want. Cats can muddy the water, deplete O2, and grow to enormous sizes (68 lb cat caught in our 30 acre pond last fall). I could pull 100 invoices on 1 acre stocks and maybe 8-10 will be identical. Customers do research, read forums, talk to neighbors, listen to suggestions, then stock their ponds. Here in south Georgia (and maybe elsewhere) catfish houses are very popular. You know the routine; take the wife out on a Friday night… Therefore we have a lot of cage raising in this area also. Keep in mind that these are numbers that have worked for us and customers WHO HAVE FOLLOWED THE PROGRAM AND MAINTAINED THEIR POND!!! For the guys and gals who go out to their pond just on the weekends to catch some “time away”, those stocking numbers mentioned above need to be well adjusted. It is a case-by-case situation. PS- don’t forget Ken has been doing this for 40 plus years. We have had success and we have had failure (learning daily), but we are still around. As for the person who posted earlier about our having a bad reputation in Georgia, I am looking at a large map on the wall behind me that has red push pens stuck in each town we have a current delivery order for. There are 27 pins there now (Georgia), with a total of 142 pins throughout the Eastern US. We have happy customers and sad one’s, just like ANY business.
H20fwkillr- email me and I will send you a complete catalog. I am not quite sure exactly what else you are asking. You mentioned something about us “feeding off the uniformed.” I do not agree, in fact we joined this forum for more reasons than to promote/defend our fish. We also joined to offer help, and most importantly to learn from others in this field. I have read several threads, and I do not get the impression that the gentlemen here are uninformed. Quite the opposite I think they are intelligent and well informed (and I am excited about absorbing some of their knowledge). You also mentioned something about the growth rate being just as good on a standard bluegill as a GG. Let me ask you a question; If you were presented with only two women (provided you were a single man) one of whom you had to marry, how would you choose?
Here would be their qualifications:
*First woman- Her mother and father were brother and sister to one another (making them her aunt and uncle also), and her grandparents were first cousins to one another. In fact her family tree pretty much is a straight line.
*Second woman- Raised in a middle-to-upper class family, this lady has an above average IQ, carries herself well, aggressively goes after what she wants, and she has no apparent inbreeding in her family.
This will pretty much sum up the difference between the standard bluegill and the GG. Standard bluegill were here when the Mayflower arrived, with no new bloodline introduced. GG on the other hand are bred true every year.
Dave- Bill answered part of your post, but as far as the pond dye goes let me explain. First of all let me start by stating that I only have taken a few courses in botany (major was biology at GSU [class ‘94]), but I have read several articles lately about the positive and negative effects of phyto and zoo plankton in ponds (including Euglena that mimic red-tide). It appears that the most beneficial plankton live in the top foot or so of water. They are extremely important in ecological balance for both a food and oxygen supply for the pond. During the day as photosynthesis occurs, the plankton will convert carbon dioxide to oxygen. When you run into problems is when the plankton gets so dense in the water that it actually lowers O2 in the water at night (when photosynthesis can not occur). We suggest dying the water below 18 inches to prevent a dense growth of any type (weed, algae, or protozoa). One feeder to the acre pond with the above stated “surface” plankton will suffice, but herein again the customer is the one to make the final call (Lord I sound like a recording on that one).
Sunil- Cute, very Cute! I thought that happened due to an excess of algae growth on the top of the water. Your theory may be better though!
How come no one asked about the Bug-O-Matic?
Thanks for the questions (and the carpal tunnel in my right wrist),
Deb
Deb,
If not too much trouble, I'd be interested in reading those articles " several articles lately about the positive and negative effects of phyto and zoo plankton in ponds (including Euglena that mimic red-tide)"
Maybe you could post a reference for those of us interested in reading that material. Thank you.
Sorry bobad, left you out while I was typing my thesis before (ha-ha). There are two strains of the gambusia, and much controversy surrounding what you mentioned. I believe it started with a rumor of them eating the eyes out of fish in the Amazon or somewhere, and then the Urban Legend grew from there. We have had no problem with them in our ponds or those of our customers. In my opinion, the mosquito larvae eating factor far outweighs eggs being eaten (if they actually do that). I know this was a project for a guy awhile back who was completing his doctrate. He was either with the University of Alabama or Auburn. Need to search the web to see if his findings have been reported.
Deb
Deb,
I have them in all my ponds and they are no problem. I don't understand, however, why one would need to buy them as they appear naturally here in East Texas. You can't have a mud puddle without them in it....maybe that does not happen elsewhere.
Deb, I was not going to post here but I started another thread under water chemistry if you can find the time to answer my question over there. I'm just looking this one over for now. Also thank you for your kind words on us having a baby. We tried IVF back in April had 9 embryos implanted 3 and did not work. This month we thawed the 6 and 4 made it the the transfer so at least one has taken hold, thanks for your thoughts on that.
Deb,
Thanks. I'm coming at it more from the prevention aspect, as opposed to actual fish kill experience in my ponds.
I have observed for years the effects of red tide in our salt water fisheries here in Texas and have questioned biologists claims of oxygen depletion as the cause of red tide related fish kills....my theory, based on just common sense (dangerous I know), is that there is much more at work than DO levels....meaning toxic conditions produced by the organisms involved. Don't ever try to eat a salt water fish that has been feeding on certain reef organisms...its a mistake one only makes once.
If similar "red tides" ever get in our ponds in fresh water, its likely to be bad news in terms of fish kills, I'm afraid, in spite of all attempts at increasing DO levels...just thoughts of an idle mind.
Deb A pond in Georgia which is stocked to the max by Ken and well maintained, on average after how many years do you'll recommend pulling the plug and starting over.
Also alot of the Pond Bosses here care little about bream, they are looking to raise that 12 pound LMB. Would this goal change your stocking recommenations and is Kens the best hatchery for a monster bass pond.
Folks, now we know who is the real salesperson in the GG organization. The science has been done, now someone to convert that into productive consumer ponds.
Deb, is extremely intelligent, very articulate, and obviously sincere in her beliefs and explanations. No one has stumped her yet, even though some have tried. I, for one, am partial to bream, and only use LMB for predation, though, HSB will probably be my next predator of choice.
One question remains unanswered; what to expect in 4 to 5 yrs. in the pond, assuming some F-10s survive.(I know, we're probing).
Hey, probe away! I just wish I could be on the offensive at least once. Bill, I will get with Ken on the LMB question, but as for the other question I am assuming no predators, right? (By the way thanks for the comment, some say I'm cute too - really kidding on that one guys!) Anyway, you will end up with a bunch of small GG. They don't strangely turn into another fish, they are just stunted (like bluegill
) Did you read the post earlier on another thread about the report West VA did. It is not only about the GG, and it has alot of good reading.
Deb
Sorry Deb was not clear. If you follow Ken's plan completely(with bass) how many years before you'll recommend draining the pond and starting over. Your catalog discuss this but gives no detail.
Hope you don't feel like you are on the defensive this is just new and different stuff
Georgia Giant Man,
Thanks for the reply. I will have to search for the invoice, but I know the name of he farm is Tri-State fish farm.
Also, I would like the name of the fish farm in Muncie. That is about an hour south of me. I live near Ft.Wayne.
Okay all...it's time for me to chime in. I want everyone to keep in mind what Pond Boss has been preaching since its inception, and what I have been teaching and practicing for 26 years. First, greetings to Deb. But, we aware, this site is to dispense information, not to sell your wares. We pay for this site, and it's designed to benefit our subscribers, and those who post. So, when you start passing out catalogs and selling your wares, please understand our philosophies.
First, when you give out advice that doesn't jibe with what these guys know, they will blast off. The stocking rates mentioned in the thread are way out of line with what we recommend. While some of them 'do no harm, others do. We don't condone, or recommend, a wholesale stocking such as what you recommend. Our concept, which works quite well, is to give the best advice, based on the goals of that particular landowner and the resources he has to manage, such as pond geography, budget, timeline, etc. These guys and gals who post this site are educated people and won't buy into the big numbers you guys recommend. We understand most ponds, with a moderate degree of management, grow 60-80 pounds of largemouth bass per surface acre, and will support as much as 300-500 pounds of forage fish per acre at any given time. With respect, these guys know if they stock 600 largemouth bass per acre, 550 will be eaten by faster growing brothers and sisters. Therefore, these folks understand they are buying way too many fish in the beginning. While it basically does no harm to the pond, it does great harm to one's back pocket, and sends the seller's credibility backward a notch or two. Don't misunderstand this, anyone. I am a capitalist, forging a living in the pond management and stocking business my entire adult life. I do believe in profit. But, I also believe it's incumbent on the pros to pass out the best advice and keep the client's desires first. That's Pond Boss' philosophy. So, let's give solid advice, based on the goals of the landowner, and keep the selling where it belongs. Everyone is welcome to give advice. Paying advertisers are welcome to sell..via an ad in the magazine.
Deb,
When I made the comment " feeding off the uninformed " I was refering to someone who would be easily influenced into stocking fish and/or amounts they may not need or want by a business that they think is looking out for them, NOT the members of this forum.
As for the argument on genetics, think about this. Whether you believe in evolution or creation, everything would be "inbred". Either decendants of Adam and Eve, or evolved from the same single cell organism. So if you want to sway me on my opinion, come up with a different argument.
My statement on the growth rates on the BG went uncontested by you. You side stepped the question and went on to your analogy on genetics of BG vs. GG. Does this mean you agree with me on the growth rates and are afraid to admit so?
Bob, Ken and Deb were asked to join the forum and have not tried to sell anything, just have answered questions. I know this is your forum and you can do with it what you want but I want to hear different ideas and form my own opionion.
Do you still think Georgia Giants are the standard Hybrid cross?
H20, I think it is a foregone conclusion that certain hybrids of BG have better growth rates than pure strains, why else would they ever have evolved? Questioning stocking rates, etc. is one thing, but argueing against known facts is another. Why would anyone put hybrids in their pond unless there were benefits?
Bob,
I asked Ken and Deb to come to the Forum and explain their position. Greg Grimes has frequently publicly disparaged Ken's products and methods in no uncertain terms.
I wanted to hear the other side and I also thought in fairness someone whose livelihood is being questioned, whose integrity is being put down in a public forum by a competitor, should have a chance to defend themselves against their accuser. The readers of this Forum are very capable of making up their own minds.
Greg Grimes said they would never come on here and defend themselves. He was wrong. It is to their credit that they have taken the time to answer all the questions thrown at them. We may not agree with all their answers or any of their answers, but what is wrong with hearing them? What is wrong with hearing someone's views that may not be your own?
Deb has said more than once and in a very professional manner that she will be glad for the chance to help someone rather than defend against Greg's "aggressive questions".
Blame me for inviting them...but don't blame them for trying to defend themselves, their business, and their integrity. For them to do otherwise would indeed be very telling.
In most fields, a seller's recommendations can be anywhere from ultra-conservative to ultra-liberal without it really being an issue of ethics. It would be nice, however, if the buyer would get a second and third opinion before pulling the trigger, or have access to a great forum like Pond Boss so they can see what another vendor might think. The only unethical practice I could imagine in this case would be if the seller implies that their's is the only reasonable course of action.
ML, where do you see my continued attacks??? I do not apprecaitae you saying that. In fact have only asked questions trying to get insight into recomendations since they appeared here. I will never get you to understand my stance so will give up trying. I'm just glad you are in the miniority on that stance.
ML,
I think the other Bob needs to understand that Ken's entire methodology is set up with very different goals in mind. Ken's methods apparently assumes his customers want GG's in maximum quantities, and are not merely "forage" for the bass. Ken/Deb can speak for themselves, but I also think/hope their customers understand and are willing to accept the high maintenance required for such brutal biomass.
Although I have over 40 years experience with ponds and fishing, I don't have any experience with GG's. So I threw out the above bait, and I'm running for cover!
There's a big difference between "continued attacks" and agressive questioning. I don't consider Greg's questions attacks at all! Somebody needs to ask those questions!
I'm only speaking for myself here, but I'm sure that Lusk fully understands what Holyoke is doing (or what his goals are for ponds).
Something about this whole thread and it's genesis has caused Lusk to make a post, in my opinion.
As far as Holyoke's stocking recommendations, I refer back to the Brady Bunch and the Caveat Emptor thing.
One thing is for certain though (at least in my mind). If a new pond boss had access to this forum before going to Holyoke, there is really no way that they would follow those stocking recommendations. Laura & Lew said as much.
Originally posted by LBuck:
There's a big difference between "continued attacks" and agressive questioning.
LBuck,
I'm happy to change my words to "aggressive questioning"...in fact, will do so, if that detracts from answering the basic questions I posed to Bob Lusk.
My questions, however, remain...what exactly is wrong with hearing other opinions, other views, and making up our own minds? What is wrong with giving Ken and Deb the opportunity to present those views? In the face of having your business and integrity questioned, isn't it customary and accepted procedure to give the accused a chance to present their views?
Originally posted by Greg Grimes:
I will never get you to understand my stance so will give up trying.
Greg,
Please allow me to try to explain something.
I understand your stance on the items we disagree on. For example, stocking grass carp in the dead of summer heat, fertilizing existing ponds which have weeds present, being able to catch big LMB as easy as small LMB, etc., etc.
I understand what you have written, but I do not agree with it on those specific matters. So, do I deserve to be shot also because I disagree with you on certain questions? Is my opinion not worthy because I happen to disagree with you?
Because I disagree with you, or anyone, does not mean I do not understand what you have written. People can disagree...as far as I know, it isn't a crime to disagree, nor a reason to disparage someone.
Hello Bob,
I apologize if anything you have read here has been misinterpreted on your part as a sales-pitch. That is not my intent or even my job. We were invited to join this forum. In fact I can honestly say I had never even known of this site until I received that invitation. Now I am glad I am here, because I am already learning a lot from previous posts. Speaking of previous posts, I spent about 1 hour last night reading over past threads (some of which we were presented in a negative light). It only seems fair that we can express our views on what has worked for us over the past 40 years. You commented that you do not condone or recommend a wholesale stocking such as what we recommend. That is an opinion that I can respect, and if you wish for us to leave then so be it. But I believe others on this forum are interested in reading about other choices out there whether they agree with those choices our not. These “guys and gals who post to this site” (as you worded it) have not even once been asked to buy ANYTHING. In fact if you will reread the thread you will discover that I have merely answered questions that have been posted to me. Those who wish to buy can call directly. In fact customers who call into the office and speak directly with me will get our standard stocking rate ADJUSTED TO THE GOALS OF THE POND OWNER.
H20fwkiller- Boy you are a fun one (scrabble match anyone). I did not mean to offend you with that analogy and hope you did not take it personally, it is just the first analogy that I came up with. As for evolution v/s creation I believe in both as the days of creation follow the theory of evolution (but that subject is for another time). As for me trying to sway you on your opinion, I have just stated facts that I have seen work for others. Did I ask you to purchase anything? As for a different argument on the growth rates go to the thread under “Questions and Observations” that is titled “Found It! (Georgia Giant research) where it has been scientifically proven that the growth rate on the GG is 4x that of the standard bluegill (and that is with the bluegill consuming 2x the amount of feed)
I don’t believe anyone should trash another’s beliefs ever, because that is like telling someone that their opinion is wrong (we are a democracy). I do believe that we are entitled to agree to disagree with one another. That is another reason I would like to stay onboard with you all. I think we can all learn at least a little from one another!
Oh yeh, you asked if I was afraid! Not on your life sweetheart!
LBuck- I agree with your concept on the 2nd and 3rd opinions. I personally would not spend even $100.00 on any product without doing research. I also agree with you about a seller implying that their product is the only reasonable action. Everyone here knows that everyone’s pond is different. Every pond owner has specific goals. That said I will answer Bill’s question yesterday (sorry I am late on it) about growing a massive LMB on our plan. Not by far in my opinion. Our ponds are stocked for catching various fish of various sizes, but we specialize in growing the large GG. Our 1 to 5 ratio will not yield an angler’s dream LMB. Personally I would cut way back on the predators stocked. Maybe go with a 1 to 10 ratio, or even 1 to 15. I would most certainly stock minnows to help put weight on the bream. This would make them appear more like a rib eye that a cube steak, as far as the LMB see it. Please knock me upside the head if this still did not answer your question (I have strep throat or something with a fever that topped 103.1 last night and all these words are starting to blur).
Bobad- don’t run for cover; you are correct. There is a higher level of maintenance required on a pond stocked by our recommendations (most importantly O2, ammonia, and nitrogen). You can’t stock that heavy and only visit your pond once a month to throw out some pellet feed.
Back to LBuck- again you are correct, I don’t feel attacked necessarily (remember H20 man “I’m Not Afraid
). Someone does need to ask these questions. I only hope that Mr. Lusk will realize I’m not on a sales kick, and therefore allow us to remain onboard.
Deb
PS- Sunil it hasn’t been Holyoak speaking, it has been me. Yes I am an employee, but I am also a very stubborn and highly educated woman who stands behind her beliefs. Ken and I have come to blows on more than one occasion in regards to differences in opinion. This entire thread has been posted and answered by me. So please, if you do not want my opinion then do not ask for it. I want to help if it is needed, but I really want to learn also. And that my dear is spoken straight from the heart!!!
Bill I left out your draining question (sorry). If you are trying to grow a monster fish don't drain. What the catalog is talking about is mainly for sterilization purposes. In that case every 7-10 years I would restock. First kill off with rotenone, then follow about a week later with potassium permangenate. The potassium will sterlize getting rid of parasites and any possible bacterial infection. Again this is just a suggestion. My parents have not restocked for almost 17 years, so every pond owner is different.
By the way, am I the only one here who realizes the only fish we have that other's don't is the GG. Therefore why have I been misinterpreted as selling when all the bluegill men can go anywhere they want.
Sorry to all if I come across snippy today, but the fever is kicking back in.
Deb
Deb, When I refer to Holyoak, I am referring to the company.
As far as the Caveat Emptor/Buyer Beware thing, that holds true for anything. You have to know what you want vs. what you are getting.
As far as you being highly educated, congratulations. I respect that and do not question your background.
As far as your opinions, it was not me who asked for them. But don't get me wrong, I don't have any problems with you or your employer.
Deb,
You seem on the up-and-up to me. You have had every opportunity to embellish and make hard sales pitches, but have refrained.
While I can not vouch for your methodology, I'm certain you guys have worked hard to develop it. I'm certain it works repeatably if your recommendations are adhered to. I have long heard that GG's have some unique traits, so they probably can not be compared quite 1:1 to standard BG. The high level of maintenance and fish mixture is not everyone's cup of tea, but that does not make it "wrong".
I will keep looking at GG's open mindedly as an option. Good luck.
Greg I like your stance you take I know my family has gone by YOUR management guidlines and have been very succesfull....
Ken Holyoak since you have been on here I am developing a different light of you than I did at first...I think your presenst on here has been REAL positive for me...I use to here ALOT of negitive about yalls operation before yall were here now I am haveing a totaly different opinion...I might be by to pick up some products!!
Thanks for shareing and please continue to answer peoples post on here it really helps!!!
Now
where is South Eastern Pond Management!!!
Burgermeister, Most hybridization is caused by intervention of homosapiens- not by evolution.
Yes, there are alot of the Hybrids that have faster growth rates than the pure strain BG, but that wasn't my main arguement. With a predator base as high as reccomended in their stocking rates, there will be little or no recruitment of juvenile GG to adulthood. With little or no competition from offspring GG growth rates would be fast. If you put pure strain BG in the same situation, the same results would happen.
I talked to a fisheries bioligist (who works for the state to help pond owners correct problems with their ponds ) a few months ago about some of the various problems he runs into in his line of work. He told me the top three problems are.....
Over stocking of ponds resulting in stunted populations and usually fish kills.
Over stocking of CC or introduction of bullhead or rough fish causing muddy water, which inturn can lead to a stunted population of forage fish/skinny Predator fish ( predator fish can't see to eat )and/or DO crash resulting in a fish kill.
And lastly stocking of hybrid sunfish to replace typical pure strain forage fish. As we all know most hybrids have little or no reproduction, at least not enough to sustain a healthy population of predator fish. This point does not appear to apply to the GG, if reprodution is as stated.
I'll bet buying an ad page would adjust Mr. Lusk's personality. After all, he does pay for the forum.
GG Man, just how many LMB will a Giant eat in one sitting?
Burgermeister, Most hybridization is caused by intervention of homosapiens- not by evolution. Yes, there are alot of the Hybrids that have faster growth rates than the pure strain BG, but that wasn't my main arguement.
Intersting, we have had some natural hybridization in our pond with pure strain BG's and a Green Sunfish. The neighbors hired hand used to seine some green sunnies out of a nearby creek to use for bait for fishing our pond. At least one green sunnies survived to breed in our pond. The hybrids looked very similar to a pumkinseeds and grew large, I caught a number of them in the 9-1/2 to 10" range, I even took one to our Game & Parks dept. thinking it was a NE state record pumkinseed, it exceeded the current record by an ounce an a half. Anyway they had to have a specialist at UNL look at it and count the gill rakes to determine if it was a hybrid or not, and it was. Anyway, we had a copper sulfate related oxygen sag one year and that was the end to all of the BG/GS hybrids, they just didn't handle the stress as well the pure strain BG's. As a side note that one green sunny was caught and removed from our pond.
BM- That would depend on the size of each fish. I certainly would not put 1-2" LMB in a completely open pond (no cover) with full grown giants.
I would like to try an experiment:
Everyone close your eyes and imagine that you are a bream fisherman ONLY. Catfish, tilapia, small mouth bass, and especially large mouth bass are out of the question (we are playing pretend, ok?). Your goal is to catch really large bream that will fight you like the devil himself and once cooked would taste like it had been submerged in butter. Would this change anyone's opinion if just even slightly? I believe it would.
My point is that everyone has different goals in their pond. Most of the pond bosses here appear to be bass fisherman. Great!!! But each situation, stocking, and maintenance program is different. Let's just offer opinions and agree to disagree.
Deb
PS- Mr. Lusk would you be opposed to us purchasing an ad from you.
Deb,
You're good, very good. I don't know about your products and methods yet, but dang, you're good!
One other thing which has not come up, Ken also sells bluegill/coppernose/redears at the exact same price as GG. But he will try to push the advantages of the GG. If you want a "normal" stocking just tell him what time you want the truck to show up.
Greetings all. I follow these threads, usually every two or three days, when not on the road. I post to answer specific questions, or keep things in order, if I deem it necessary.
One of my favorite aspects of our site is the difference of opinions. My post was in response to two things. First, the stocking rates, in my opinion, are excessive. Second, the offer to send catalogs sent my antenna up. That's it, nothing more.
It's obvious Deb's intelligience level is high, and her ability to communicate it is exceptional, also.
Deb, you are welcome on this site. Personally, I like the variations in opinions. Seems everyone has one, and can support it. As Martha Stewart might say, "That's a good thing." At the same time, when I saw the general stocking rates, I was compelled to refute them. That's all. If they work for you, and have for forty-odd years, go get 'em. I've personally been a fisheries biologist and lake manager for twenty-six years. I spend my time with individual clients all over the nation,designing lakes, creating individual management strategies, then helping them buy and stock different species of fish from different hatcheries around the United States, and have formed different opinions on what works, and what doesn't.
I am not opposed to hybrid sunfish. I see them as a tool. Many different hatcheries advertise them and sell them. Since Ken's fish are a proprietary genetic blend, I can't defend or refute them. I simply don't know, and the scientist in me wonders how much of that is marketing and how much is biology, kind of like the "tiger bass" trademark. Capitalists are always looking for an angle. I look for results for my clients. All I know is, hybrid sunfish on the general market fit a well defined niche. They don't grow to five pounds. The ones I have seen over the years will grow beyond 3/4 pound, and some even get to 1 1/2 pounds. An exceptional fish pushes two. That's what I have seen, that's what I can talk about.
I welcome Deb's input, and her intellect. Conflicting opinions are great, honestly. It's how we all grow, and how we all learn. Heck, if everyone agreed, we wouldn't have this site. Meadowlark, I will always welcome opinions. At the same time, I am in charge of this site and will take charge when I see fit. I saw fit.
Bill Duggan, I don't think any differently now about hybrid sunfish than I did before these posts. I see them as a niche fish. If Deb's and Ken's fish are better, that's great. My knowledge and understanding of their fish is the same now as it was yesterday and the day before. Ken's Fish Hatchery has filled a niche in the stocking business, and their clientele, as everyone's tends to be, is loyal.
I respect that.
What works for Bill Duggan fits directly with the suppliers he chooses. What fits for Ken's and Deb's company matches their clients. Same for me.
It's healthy, it's business, and personally, I like it.
Deb, let me be as clear as I can. Your posts are refreshing, thoughtful and well spoken. You bring points not brought before on this site. I think it's great. Just don't openly try to sell anything. It's as simple as that. Stay on, read on, post on. You are welcome here.
And, if I disagree with stocking rates, or anything else, with anyone on this site, I will raise the point, then give my opinion, and everyone can take it or leave it. Heck, it's your pond.
The most exciting thing about all this is the fact a wide variety of thinking brings people "out of the box." Too many people get lodged into what I call "definite opinions" and the learning curve dwindles. Not with this website.
Bring it on, everyone.
Very well put Bob! I couldn't agree with your post more.
Greg, just in case you haven't figured it out yet. ML hates your guts. He will at, every oportunity he sees he can get away with it, put you down.
I believe it must have started when you advised him to fertilize to shade out weeds. He either didn't give you enough info on his pond ie: fertile already, or wasn't the pondmister he thought he was & misapplied your suggestion. Now he blames you for his mistake & will always do so. He is not the type of person I would care to spend the day in a boat with.
Remember, there are those in this world that will always blame others & never take responsibility for their own actions.
ML's invite, reguardless of what he is now saying, to the GG people was simply to try to put you on the spot. That's obvious to anyone following his sarcastic posts toward you. They will never end.
In summary, People like ML don't matter ... ignore him.
Well, Sunil, I had 2.
The diversity on this forum, just as diversity in nature, is healthy and beneficial. Open mindedness leads to learning. I have another question about GG growth rates; should I ask it and bury it here, or post it under Types of Fish to Choose?
Quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Greg, just in case you haven't figured it out yet. ML hates your guts. He will at, every oportunity he sees he can get away with it, put you down.
I believe it must have started when you advised him to fertilize to shade out weeds. He either didn't give you enough info on his pond ie: fertile already, or wasn't the pondmister he thought he was & misapplied your suggestion. Now he blames you for his mistake & will always do so. He is not the type of person I would care to spend the day in a boat with.
Remember, there are those in this world that will always blame others & never take responsibility for their own actions.
ML's invite, reguardless of what he is now saying, to the GG people was simply to try to put you on the spot. That's obvious to anyone following his sarcastic posts toward you. They will never end.
In summary, People like ML don't matter ... ignore him."
------------------------------------------------
Hey Guys - step back please.....!
We don't need this........!
I highly regard both gentlemen's opinions and advise - and have benefited from PB forum respondents.
Remember, we are from many different parts of the country with differing pond problems and objectives.
I appreciate all opinions even when I disgree...!
Respectfully,
George Glazener
Bill Cody please feel free to ask any questions you need to. If I don't know the answer I will found out for you. I started this thread to open everyone's mind about different options, so questions are expected.
Thanks again for the respect you have shown me!
Thank you also to Mr. Lusk for allowing us to stay on board.
Something occurred to me around midnight last night. Most everyone on this forum is in the pond management mode, either by profession or by trait. I look at things more from the prevention aspect (ie the pond dye, feed, aeration) from the beginning. Could this be a reason behind the conflicts that have come about? We do have one Sub-contractor who handles pond management, but he is not an employee of the company. We spend so much time in research and development that we have not focused on you all's end of it. May be something to change. Just a thought to throw out there?
Also, if I may pose a question to anyone why such high recommendations out there for fertilizer in a pond? This has always intrigued me! What are we growing?
Deb
Easy now Ric; back away from the Java.
I agree with George. This thread has created more unkindness to each other. I think it better to back off about half a turn and get back to exhanging ideas, opinions about pond management and you pros answering questions from amateurs like me.
Originally posted by Georgia Giant Man:
Also, if I may pose a question to anyone why such high recommendations out there for fertilizer in a pond? This has always intrigued me! What are we growing?Deb
Deb,
Good question, but unfortunately, the question has the effect of throwing gasoline on a fire in this Forum...in more ways than one. I suggest, if you are bullet proof, and enjoy getting slammed
, that you start a new thread that outlines your position on fertilization. I would really like to read your position on that...and would really like to see an open discussion of the topic without rancor on this Forum.
I don't think it was Java. Maybe moonshine, or grain for that matter.
Wow I took a look at some pictures of fish claiming to be GG’s and they were impressive. If GG are as good as claimed in growth, and aggressiveness they could fill a very interesting market. I suspect many pond owners strive for their ponds to produce state citation LMB and dream of catching a state record. For some one interesting in growing a state recorded sunfish the GG looks as if I could become the fish of choice. Have Any GG’s been confirmed as State Record holders? Would they be eligleble in most states because they are hybrids? Has any attempted a pond with male only GG?
JBoat - Your comment about male only GG's is partly where I was going when I asked early in this thread about documented ratios of males vs females in each spawn. Deb said: "This has never been validated by anyone outside of the hatchery (still varies with batch to batch), but that is a good idea." Deb did not provide any of the sex ratio's from the hatchery data files. I will ask for more information relating to this in my Topic Starter Question under the category - see Types of Fish to Choose - Georgia Giant Growth Rates.
Ric, thanks I had already decided to not respond to ML. However one last attempt to answer to his commetns. I will not lower myself anymore to the diatribe. I did not start this backup mind you. IN fact I had let it go and made positive comments over the last few months. However right back to sarcasim again.
Past sarcastic remarks...he tried to make it seem I answer questions based on profit, nothing farther from the truth and that is what set me off.
He made the last comments he disagrees about stocking grass carp in dead of summer. I do not stock grass carp in Texas, I just got back 106 degrees you think I said it was ok to stock then, WRONG! I never said that. I might have stated I never have problems sotcking here in summer with grass carp. I do not have problems but would not attempt if hotter than 90.
Fertilize when you already have weeds, WHERE did I say that? In fact on the board you can find comments warning folks about fertilzing with weeds.
"Catch big bass as well as small bass." This was never big vs. small it was healthy vs hungry. Not a wordsmith but thought that was pretty clear. Ric is right you do have it againist me and I stated I will not try to change your stance not that you can not state your opinion.
Ok 'nuff said. I defended those comments even though most folks knew I did not make 'em. So ML you seem to always want the last word so go off on me again I will not comment back. I'm done with it.
All this madness over a f'n perch ? Too Funny. Just for grins, I would throw in 100 or so just to compare them against Bgill & Redear...if GG can't survive and oversize the competition in a neutral environment, what good are they ? If they out compete and grow larger, I would take note annually...but, on a very limited basis. Being a 3rd generation pond owner I've seen a LOT. If and when I'm going to pry open the wallet, it's not going to be spent on inferrior fish or snacks to bulk up weight. Improve the habitat and forage base if you desire big fish.
I've been reading all the threads on GG and find them very interesting. I have been interested in GG's for years and would have bought some if my state would have allowed them in. I've talked to everyone I can find about whether the GG really lives up to its claims but have found no one in the past with experience. I gave up trying when I came to this site. So this is really interesting. I'm not defending GG since I never did get any. But I really think some of you are missing the difference between what most of you do and what Ken sets people up for. He intends to sell fish to people who want to grow a lot of very big BG that you don't let reproduce because you want one year class of fish to grow big. When I was looking at GG it was made clear to me that Ken's standard recommendation is for the person who is willing to manage the heck out of his pond to get the most pounds of big fish. His default approach is not that of creating an ecological balanced system. He specializes in fish farming. In that respect it appears he knows what he's doing. So if you factor this difference in I think it explains the differences in approach and recommendation. I didn't by GG but I did stock hybrid BG from local source because I wanted one year class that grew big. I also stocked way over what you guys recommned. I have a 1/2 acre pond with 1000 HBG. That's 2000 per acre. Has it worked? You bet, mine are 3 years old and pushing 1 pound. Not as fast as Ken claims for GG but I'm happy, not bad for Minnesota where pond is iced for 5 months. Yes I live right by my pond and I manage it hard. I aerate and feed every day, twice a day when the sun is rising before I go to work. I manually remove weeds to keep the pond open. I've had no problems with fish survival. In 3 years I've found two dead fish and both of those were expected since I badly hooked 2 fish just prior to them showing belly up. Yes I will probably have to poison it out and start over some day. But I've had a lot of fun growing them and I started catching 1/2 pound fish the second year they were in my pond. I only had one full summer where I couldn't catch and eat fish. So for my goals the hybrid route has done what I want and I'll probably do it again. Hats off to you guys with the time, knowledge, and patience to construct a balanced enviroment and grow an ecosystem. Maybe I'll get smart enough to do that some day but for now I like big BG fast.
BZ is the state restricting all fish imports or just GG's
BZ, very good summary of another approach vs. high maintenance. I live 2 states west of my pond, so cant manage it tightly, but, like you, want a little fun for me and grand kids when possible. Large bream fit that niche.
Food for thought:
I understand the doubts that have been placed on board both in the current threads and of those past, but has anyone on this board actually bought our fish and followed or program (water chemistry included) “by the book”. I stopped Ken early this morning as I arrived for work, and discussed with him the many issues that are being brought forth. I am printing off all of the threads and responses for him to review, and then I will post his responses accordingly.
That being said, he brought out several points to me as we stood outside the office this morning. Ken graduated from UGA under the same program type that Greg and many others were under. The difference was that he did it over 40 years ago (program name was different, but many classes were ths same). In other words, the state has not changed their teachings. This could be because it works or because of habit. Anyway, Ken has spent the past 40 some odd years experimenting and improving on techniques and applications both with the fish themselves and with improving water quality and conditions in order to get maximum growth. Several references have been made that Ken is basically out there just to make a quick buck. But if that was truly the case, why would we practice the same procedures on all of our ponds. It must truly be more cost effective to us to “practice what we preach”. Not too many people can say they continually maintain 50 plus ponds on a single 1500 acre plot. Some ponds are experimental, some for fingerlings, some for adults (for the genetic pooling that comprises the GG), some for fish out, and at least one (behind the office that is a “catch all”. This particular pond has not been drained for 20 years, and it catches anything that escapes the hatchery and loading (pickup) dock. Yet all of these ponds are highly productive. And all are based on “the program” that we recommend to customers and potential clients. All ponds are feed, aerated, dyed, and limed (according to pH only). We use calcium and bufferin for hardness and alkalinity levels, and measure these by gpg. No we do not have to continuously add these two products, as they have a POTENTIAL life span of ag lime, but with more benefits. Hydrated lime on the other hand is only recommended at 25 lbs per acre per week to raise pH if needed. Granted hydrated lime has a much shorter life span, but the growing season is not year long. We stopped using ag lime years ago when we discovered that these products listed above were more cost effective, lasted long term, grew above quality fish, and did not need the constant “management” that other products needed.
Now, Ken’s Hatchery and Fish Farm does not specialize in pond management, where as a lot of forum members derive their sole income from this one practice. I understand there is a need for this work out there, and am by no means poking light at what you do. It is a very big part of the equation. We do have a sub-contractor who handles some pond management for the customer's that request it. So it could be said that it would actually be to the economic advantage of a person in that field to design a plan for a pond that would require the “expert’s” maintenance program versus a simple plan that would allow a customer with limited knowledge in the field to “handle things on their own”. Again I will state that I do see the need for professional pond managers, but not every pondowner needs them, wants them, or can afford them. That is the "niche" we fill (as some would say).
I am sure this post will tick quite a few people off, but I promise that is not the intention. I am simply posing questions that need to be asked. As I have stated many times prior, I am still a fledgling in the fishery field, so I will rely on the experiences of others as well as my own research before I can start passing out my personal recommendations. The argument I am proposing is this; We have done it both ways. Have any of you? Comments before were made about having to go behind and “clean up” after us, but this is merely hearsay. Until one individual uses trial and error with BOTH programs, a true educational comparative analysis can not be given in regards to the way we operate. As Ken stated to me this morning, “I spent a lot of years doing it wrong, and am comfortable that I am on the right track now. But mind you I am still learning”. I think this last statement can apply to all of us. The minute we close our minds to the potential changes that can be implemented in this field, is the minute we become self indulgent “omnipotent” lecturers who have a long term benefit for no one.
Boy I bet I just opened Pandora’s Box!!!
Deb
Deb as far as I know I am the only regular poster on the board which has stocked GG and as I have stated before I have not followed Ken's plan. IMO no one is going to spend the time and money to follow Ken's plan unless they are a "Pond Boss" like the rest of us. With all the ponds you stock and the feedback you recieve there must be numerous pond owners who you could request that they join the fun and post on the site
bz -check with the state to find out if it is the fish they do not allow, or our sale of the fish in that state. A few states do not allow our truck to enter the state without having a very expensive permit, but they will allow the customer to transport the fish into the state. For example in the Spring of 2004, I had a customer from Minn. or Wyoming drive to Northern Illinois to meet our truck at another customer's pond. My driver bagged the fish with oxygen for travel, and the fish made it back fine. It is also a possibility to ship fish (from any hatchery)by UPS.
Deb
One step ahead of you Bill! I spoke with a very nice customer from Prospect, Tn. this morning who swears by the GG. I mentioned the forum as a good place to learn about a variety of topics and opinions. He said that he and his son or grandson one just sat down awhile back and gorged themselves on 8 large GG. He said he would research the site, and make a post.
My only concern with asking customers to post would be with Mr. Lusk. I do not by any means want him to misinterpret a customer's post as a sales ploy by me.
Deb
Deb, I DID see where you requested to buy some ad space. BTW, I better order a subcription or I may get bumped.
Seriously, I am going to subscribe.
To all, it is not that my state will not allow GG imported, they will no allow any fish that does not have a health certificate that is done by an independent lab to their satisfaction. I must say that years ago I talked to Ken a bunch about this. He was willing to do whatever it took including sending fish to a lab to get tested. But then it got more complicated. There needs to be a standard test sample from each pond tested, that meant a number of fish (60 I think), plus I needed a certification that the tested fish came from the pond that was tested. Then my state requires a permit which includes the date, approximate time, travel route, vehicle license number for which the fish will be transported. It was also interesting that they informed me that they have never issued any permits to import GG into Minnesota and their suspicion was that if any were being sold here it was illegal. It is clear that if you have customers who drive out of state to pick them up themselves they are doing it to avoid the health permit issues and hence are illegal. You could call this all overkill but they tell me the biggest reason for the health stuff is they are really working hard to try to keep LMB virus out of the state. They stated that if a hatchery cannot provide the standard health test of 60 fish per pond and certification that what they sell is from that pond then you don't want to deal with them because they aren't following standard health protocol. I concluded that this is just more than you guys are used to in southern states and I gave up on the whole idea of importing anything from anywhere. I was stuck buying fish locally for 10 times the price I could get from out of state.
I do not need to "stock by the book" to know I'm throwing good money after bad, that's way too many fish for pond I visit every 2-4 weeks. Offer me a plan that keeps both predators and GG in balance. Please offer a more reasonable stocking plan with growth that exceeds bgill or redear by a marginal %. I want all fish to have high relative weight ratios. (not that they do) I feel ahead of the curve stocking HSB, LMB, Crappie, Cats, & Tilapia. Bgill are everywhere this Fall. Does the GG have anything to offer ? Or does the GG need a pond specifically designed for them ?
Eastland the GG has alot more to offer than your average BG, and a pond does NOT have to be built specifically for them. We have customers that raise 100 on up depending on the wants and needs of that individual customer.
I sent Ken to the bank vault this morning to retrieve some photos. Most are on slides, so I will have Walmart convert them tonight if I have time. But I did find several of "Bubba" (thanks Bruce!)on the day he was caught and the day following.
I will now attempt to post these...
Sorry they took up so much space!
Deb
MAN!!! thoes could not Possibly be REAL......are they??? Come on.....them thangs bigger than Crappie!!! Heck he's the size of a basket ball!!!
I'm speechless, all I can say is "DANG"!
That is the actual (no replica there) 5 pounder that went in the record books. Now mind you 2-3 lbs over 3-4 years in good water is our average growth, but can you just imagine hooking something like that? The slides of others (1-2 pounds and such) are at Wal-Mart now, so I will be able to post those Thursday!
Deb
I agree with Shorty, "Dang!!!!"
I can't wait and see what the "mad scientist", ML will do with these things.
Take a little kid perch fishing for these and you will see their eyes as big as the fish.
TEXAS715,
Actually, I do intend to find out for myself what these critters will do in an East Texas pond....it's the least I can do to keep up my reputation.
And see what will happen when they are big enough to eat small tilapia!
Yep, they are going into the kid's pond with Tilapia and Rio's and most likely HSB as the predator...my grandkids are gonna love that pond, I hope.
Deb, where do I even begin on this one. I wish first I had more time. I have not brought up past experiences with clients of Ken’s since you started answering questions. I left that alone for others to figure out for themselves. However you have still avoided answering some questions. I posted here only b/c I believe I’m the person you are referring to in the above post. BTW that is the same picture on the catalog and figured folks would flip out. What does that proof?
Let me go through the post… “Ken graduated from UGA under the same program that Greg and many others were under. The difference was that he did it over 40 years ago. In other words, the state has not changed their teachings. This could be because it works or because of habit.”
1. It states in his bio graduated with agriculture degree from UGA. SO this is not the same degree I have. Also bachelors vs. masters. I did not even want to go there. I think Ken is well educated in fish/aquaculture etc. However you are going to bring it up be at least accurate. 2. I agree many similar concepts being taught. I have on post credited Ken with thinking outside the box and this is good. However some the principals are being taught b/c they work.
“It must truly be more cost effective to us to “practice what we preach”. Not too many people can say they continually maintain 50 plus ponds on a single 1500 acre plot.”
This is my point exactly you have an aquaculture facility not a sport fishing facility. This is huge diff in stocking a pond for quick growout managed intensively for growth and removal vs. continued growth for years of fishing. I hope you know the difference of these two without explanation.
“So to turn things around on a certain someone, it would actually be to the economic advantage of a person in that field to design a plan for a pond that would require the “expert’s” maintenance program versus a simple plan that would allow a customer with little knowledge in the field to “handle things on their own”. Again I will state that I do see the need for professional pond manager, but not every pondowner needs it, wants it, or can afford it. That is the "niche" we fill (as some would say).”
Where to begin with this one? Guess how many ponds we manage that we stock? About 10% maybe less. So do not see the argument for many reasons. In fact now you claim client “can handle things on their own” when in other post you admit that your plan requires high maintenance, make up your mind. So you argue if I propose stocking 1,00 bluegill/acre with 50-100 bass it will require more “experts” than if stocking 3,000 and 600 bass? Deb come on. My “sales pitch” is that with proper stocking no further stocking is necessary if managed properly. Then I tell them what to do themselves. If they stocked all the GG, bass, HSb and cats you suggest this is no way the case ti will require some serious intense management. I guess I should be happy about your plan b/c it leads them to me for managing b/c it is so screwed up from over stocking.
“The argument I am proposing is this; we have done it both ways. Have any of you? Comments before were made about having to go behind and “clean up” after us, but this is merely hearsay. Until one uses trial and error with BOTH programs, a true educational comparative analysis can not be given in regards to the way we operate.”
I guess it is hearsay from me. I know what clients have told me “they followed your plan for a year or so”. Then after a year of not my plan but the plan recommend by most fish professionals in the business it is working, so is this doing it both ways? You make claims “We use calcium and bufferin for hardness and alkalinity levels, and measure these by gpg. No we do not have to continuously add these two products, as they have a Potential life span of ag lime, but with more benefits. “
ANY PROOF! So they last up to 6 years when compared to 4 tons ag lime/acre. Impressive I guess I will be like the rest and just read it in the catalog and believe it sign me up for it, you depend on the uneducated for this sale. Here is some more hearsay, I went to a client that had as recently as 3 months prior to calling me had used your water quality program. Water quality in regards to hardness and alkalinity was poor. He was floored and had spend $5,800 on his 8 acre lake in the last two years (for 2 years that sounds like pond management but you do not do that, hmm) He said he kept sending in water samples and it would be ok then next time require more additions. Sorry say what you want I could not sleep at night doing this. I could make all this up but hope the folks who follow this know I would not. Believe or not everyone he showed me the invoices. Deb if you can believe me on this one, can you understand my frustration when I see this?
”As Ken stated to me this morning, “I spent a lot of years doing it wrong, and am comfortable that I am on the right track now. But mind you I am still learning”. I think this last statement can apply to all of us. The minute we close our minds to the potential changes that can be implemented in this field, is the minute we become self indulgent “omnipotent” lecturers who have a long term benefit for no one.”
I could not agree more with Ken here. I learn everyday it seems but have to have some scientifically based reason behind things I do. In fact I have learned a few things on this board. I hope I do not appear “all knowing”. Nothing is farther from the truth. However I’m confident I do know a lot about fish stocking and pond management in the southeast and do what I feel is right for making a living and can sleep at night doing it.
Hmmm, alrighty then!
Pictures of GG's should be ready in the AM, so I hope to have them up by 10:00 AM Eastern Time. Everyone have a good evening and sleep well (I will
)
Deb
Greg, I have enjoyed many of your enlightening posts on many topics, I even bought the scale today that you recommended, BUT this last post is about the most senseless that I have seen. I hate to see a good man dig his own grave. Please be a little more open minded.
As the lady suggested, sell the fast growing fish, and use your management skills to make them extremely happy.
I dont see that you are really in competition with Ken's hatchery. What am I missing?
Guys I don't want to grow "Bubba" That GG was one in a million.
This Saturday my best friend from high school is bringing his seven year old son to the farm to fish for the first time. I know he will catch big GG bream fast enough to keep his interest and make a lasting memory.
Thats the goal for my pond
Deb I thought that GG' after they breed a couple of times...Turned into Green Sunfish and Bluegill...is this correct?
And By the way what pictures are you going to post??
Could you post some pictures of "Normal" relistic size fish? I might want to BUY a handfull to stock in YET MY THIRD LAKE I PLAN TO BUILD !!! for the Third time!!
No sir, they do not turn into anything but degenerated GG's. Not bluegill, not a green sunfish, and not the lochness monster :p (threw that last one in for effect). A point I forgot to mention earlier about my talk with Ken was the fact that he had 12-13 experimental ponds running at one time (decades ago) trying to grow a monster bream. The GG is made up of several different fish. I even joked to a client/friend today that I suspected there was a wee bit of piranha in the mix due to the highly aggressive nature (Ken does have a petrified one on his desk that he got while doing research along the Amazon).
The slides I pulled today were of GG's in the 1-3 lb range that were 1-4 years old. Wal-Mart is converting these slides to pics so that I can post them here. These pics will be more in line with what should be expected from the GG. Bill stated that "Bubba" (again thanks for the name Bruce) was a once in a lifetime fish. He was correct in that, but I think Ken has an offer in our newest catalog of like $10K to anyone who can get a 6 pounder (get the fish aquariums out of your minds boys). That is Ken though, always trying to improve on an existing product.
See you all in the morning with some nice photos!
Deb
burger, I do not think we are in competetion either. She suggested I sell fish so that I might get future mgmt. I guess I'm supposed to read this and not post.
Deb and Ken,
Good luck on your business venture. Personally speaking, and I dont have a BA or a Masters in Fish, but I am as uneasy about putting a man made fish in my pond as I am about spraying chemicals around it. To me nature, my aerator, and some fish food, grow some damn nice fish, and lots of em. My elbows, lawn mower, tilapia, clean my pond. And having invested time and money and energy trying to learn about my pond I must sit back and listen to Greg Grimes just a wee bit more than a saleswoman trying to sell me a product. Grimes hasn't tried to sell me a thing. My opinion and no offense intended. This whole discussion reeks of a sales pitch.
Toby
Greg we need to talk about these GG fish...I might have some intrest in them....she is telling the truth that they will NOT degenerate back to Green sun fish then they might be a fish we need to stock!!
big pond, I do not really have a problem with the fish if you are willing to sacrifice a few things. It is more the total number of fish suggested and water quality products that I feel are gone after a good rain that gets under my skin.
A few will pose no problem either way. It is obviuos though from mouth size only there will be some overlap of food items with bass. Also they are designed to reproduce less so lose some bass growth this way. Get it?
So go for it with a few if you like. I told the story on one thread how fun the one fish was and how much more agressive than the bluegill in my pond.
Just when people quit worring about green sunfish. So I can relate your experiance with my four year old GG, when did you stock yours Georgia Giants, when did you first notice green sunfish and after how many years did it take to be overrun by greenies?
Bill, dont bother with Robinson. He's just jerking your chain. If he ever stocked them, really, he would never admit it! BUT, he does admit to sick humor from too much Benny Hill. :p
BTW, he doesn't even like the mighty Blue Cat, but stealthily munches on Channels.
Thanks Burger, I know he never stocked any, that was the only nice way I could think to respond to the post. I just hate it that this is an information board and a "Pond Boss" would make that kind of post even as a joke that someone might use to make a future decision
Georgia Giants vs bluegill/greensunfish cross, most everyone(I think) now agree are different fish. Bob Lusk even almost said it. Great links, Ask The Expert is calling Coopernose bluegills a hybrid
As primarily a LMB fisherman, green sunny's are not all that bad, risky yes as far as pond management but here is my thinking. I have fished a private lake here in NE is where green sunny's are the dominat forage fish. You would not beleive WR's on the LMB in this lake. It was common to catch 17-18" LMBs that were over 5lbs., basically the GS keep the LMB reproduction to a minumum, without a lot of competition the remaining LMB grew fast and large eating 5-6" GS. This lake stayed this way for a number of years until an aquatic weed invasion that through everything out of whack. GS would not be my first choice to stock but I think could live with them if I had too as a forage fish for LMB based on the WR's I have seen out of this lake.
I like green sunfish almost as much as cats, even mudcat!
Your experiance with Green Sunfish is when you stocked them in a pond. Do I laugh or cry!!!!
Please! Enough already with the dreaded green sunfish! I have yet to read a comment here from anyone who stocked a GG and fished out green sunfish. Yes you have posted links that led to opinions, so post a few more that will take us to articles written by the National Enquirer. I don’t see a real difference.
Let’s all step back into time for a moment when we took Biology 101 (with simple genetics).
Analogy:
An Anglo Saxon and an African American fall deeply in love, marry, and produce offspring. None of these offspring are identical to the parents, yet they all possess traits carried in their lineage. Now these offspring grow up to marry, and over the course of many decades we have several generations removed from the original parents. Will one of these children be identical to either of their great, great grandparents? No, they will not. Why? Because of simple genetics. You will see generation upon generation that exhibit traits and qualities of the original parents, BUT THEY WILL NOT BE IDENTICAL! The same holds true for the GG bream. This fish was developed over a ten year period, and comprises the lineage of several fish. All of the offspring have slightly different traits depending on whatever dominant gene they picked up. But they DO NOT turn back into anything. They are their own fish in their own right. Smaller, yes, but still a GG.
This analogy may offend some, and may not be understood by others. I also apologize if I am coming across terse, but I am just about knee deep in all of the ludicrous hypotheses that are flying around. I would say to stock and prove me wrong, but you can’t. On this one I hold firm.
Many of the professionals on this post are also ranchers! Maybe you can give a better analogy than I did. What do you get when you cross two different types of cows? I realize that the calves will look and act in very similar ways to their parents, but do any ever TURN BACK INTO THEIR PARENTS? Or let’s take botany for example. Make a hybrid daylily, and even after years of cross pollenation you still will not get back to the original daylily you started with.
Please find a different subject to harp on than this poor fish.
Goodnight to all,
Deb
Deb let's give up for a few days or weeks until the board cools down, I want Pond Boss to be an information source of good information for pond owners
Deb you are the best thing to happen to this board in a long time!
You admit to not knowing, so research hybrids (of all types) before posting again. I do not doubt that you fished ponds and caught varieties, but ponds are stocked by more than man alone. Birds, raccoons, house cats,... all have the ability to transfer eggs, babies, and/or live fish between ponds. It is also possible that you caught a fish that exhibited some traits of another fish.
“You cross breed a bluegill and a green sunfish, you get a mix or a GG. This is Generation 1. I don't know the formula, and don't care, but this is basically ture” - your quote
Whether you care or not, your statement is completely inaccurate. The GG is not a cross between these two individual fish, and if you really do not care, then what is your point here anyway.
“You all never did say what they revert to. It has to be something. So what is it? I say it's the original bluegill and green sunfish. If not that, it's some other little s*^6 fish.” -your quote
Reread the post (or read the entire thing for the first time), and you will realize I did answer that question. They revert to nothing. Each generation is smaller (as with most any hybrid) which is why it is so important to introduce predators in a timely fashion.
“Again, just answer the simple question, after 8 generations what do you get? I say it's a pond full of stunted green sunfish.”- your quote
The question is simple, and has been simply answered on a repeated basis. In fact it is fairly simple to read, and understand (or so I should hope). If stocked proper then you should not get to an 8th generation GG, but if that recommendation is not simple enough for you and you end up with some, then they would be stunted GG’s. Again I urge you to read up on genetics and hybridization. The benefits are endless. I will admit that as you get further down the chain of generations it becomes harder to predict the outcome of traits in the fish (which does introduce a disadvantage), but nothing reverts to an original in the world of hybrids.
Stock what you want to stock and have your own opinions. That is part of the ingenuity of this forum. My job is not to sell, but to try and explain (or in this case defend). Your mind is already made up, so basically you are either bored and indifferent, or have a hidden agenda. Either way, please address me again when you have a substantial argument. I do not know you personally, and I mean no offense in this post, but I believe that the founders of this forum would like to see it put to use in a more productive manner than you have displayed here.
Research, research, Research!!! There have been many questions asked of me that I am still researching, because I truly want to learn. I do not feel the need to waste my time or the time of any of the real professionals here by posting redundant questions (under the same thread), or by trying to belittle someone because I can get away with it. We are all adults here (or at least I should hope so), so let’s all treat one another with respect. Shall we actually learn from the massive load of experience on this site, or simply play mind games that benefit no one in the end?
Jerk your perch, jerk my chain, or jerk whatever else you may wish to, but I have answered your questions, and I stand firm on the belief in my fish. Post whatever you wish (it is a free world), but there is no denying science. Everyone knows my position, so I will attempt not to further feed your fun by posting to you again on this subject.
Thank you for your time (and again if you are sincere in your questioning then Google it),
Deb
You are right Bill, and thank you for the compliment. I have become addicted to the information that has come from the professionals here. Simple mammalian biology was my rut before working with the hatchery. There is so much knowledge and experience here at this site. Bob and company should be proud of what they have designed.
And to think I have only been reading these posts (past and present) for two weeks.
And Greg if you are reading this I also have learned a bit from you (and respected what I did not agree on).
We need to get Bob to host a Pond Boss convention to put us all in the same room. Wow! There's an idea.
Thanks to all,
Deb
Deb, I'm not a Pro or geneticist but I do know that crosses get both desirable and undesirable traits from parents. Downline generations in an uncontrolled breeding "program", like a common pond or a mixed herd of cattle can be watered down or strengthened pretty quickly. Only under lab or controlled conditions can you breed true. If a GG breeds with a green sunfish, its progeny will soon water down on desirable traits.
BTW, you stepped in it when you stated that birds, coons and other varmits stock ponds. That's been cussed and discussed extensively here. Scientifically, you can see that the odds are overwhelming. Eggs don't stick to anything but each other. Check the conditions that fish eggs need to hatch. Odds of survival, even under ideal natural conditions, are pretty lousy for both the egg and the ultimate fry. However, in some ponds, life seems to occur. But it is exceedingly rare. Admittedly, mosquito fish seem to show up.
I can't say any thread ever on this site has evoked a variety of so much emotion and passion among the participants. As the administrator, I have watched and listened. My tendency is to leave threads like this one alone, because they usually die and people move on. This one has taken a life of its own, because of the emotions.
Here are a few facts for everyone to understand.
When you cross two species, a hybrid is created. In most scenarios, hybrids can't reproduce. (donkey x horse = mule)
In the case of hybrid sunfish, some of them can reproduce (not all). Their sex ratios are not normal...approximately 95% are males. That also has an impact on reproduction.
Know this...they cannot reproduce to what they are, it's genetically impossible. They also cannot reproduce to what they were. That's impossible, too. Each offspring carries the genes for both parents, which is a mixed pool. Some genetic traits are dominant, others aren't. When fish have a mixed pool, they reproduce and only give a mixed pool, they can't be anything 'pure', ever. They can't become their parents. It's akin to unbaking a cake. That cake will never be the ingredients. It is now a cake.
Hybrid vigor degrades after the first generation. When hybrids cross, dominant traits change. Hybrids cannot reproduce and become what they were. They become a second generation cross with a mixed bag of genes from the parents. Where the second generation crosses, things become confusing, genetically speaking. Those generations are called 'Fx'. Take a bag of red and green confetti, and mix it with a bag of blue and yellow confetti. The 'hybrid' bag is a pretty, even mix of all colors. Take the hybrid bag and mix it with another bag of totally different colors. What do you get? A completely mixed bag of different colors, none of which is the original. It has traits of the original, but isn't. With hybrid sunfish some of those colors are dominant, some of the behaviors are dominant.
Fisheries biologists who recommend hybrid sunfish also recommend stocking no other sunfish with them. That's because the hybrids which do reproduce tend to go at it with other species, such as bluegill, etc.
Typical hybrid sunfish sold in the U.S. are crosses between male bluegill and female green sunfish.
Deb tells us that the Georgia Giant is a proprietary blend of genes. She has no idea what it is. Two people know that blend, and they aren't talking. They have a trademark, a product and loyal base of followers. They have a system they like.
Other companies have programs and systems that they like.
It's pretty funny, traveling the country and meeting different biologists and pond management people. The business is a hybrid. We live in different regions, doing what we do. And, most of us think we invented the business. I'll never forget about ten years ago, when I found out about a pond management guy in South Carolina. I called him. We both were a bit shocked. He pretty much did what I did, and as we compared notes, we were similar. Throw some testosterone into the mix, and we could have been like two roosters, taking credit for all the chicks. Pond management, as a business, is a cottage industry. Individuals learn what they learn, then preach it and prove it. But, the biological principles are the same.
We all operate under these scientific principles, with different opinions. That fact makes pond management an art.
As consumers, you get to pick.
Much of this thread is based on hearsay, with a limited understanding exactly how genetics work, bolstered by other hearsay as evidence.
Deb has explained it well.
If someone has green sunfish, they didn't come from the hybrids. It can't happen. Hybrids are hybrids, cake is cake.
Dave you are exactly right about the undesirable traits. Basically we are talking about micro-evolution versus macro-evolution. With macro-evolution (man-made or guided), the uncertainty of predictable or even desired traits becomes higher with each generation. So the possibility of a real freak appearing way down the line is always real. But again this can be avoided with the proper introduction of predators. Keep the originals and maybe a set of offspring, and let the remainder be eaten.
And I am sure I did “step in it” with the transfer proposal. But “eggs sticking to each other” is not the only means of transfer. Grown fish carried by the mouth of another creature or bird, or even a neighbor who wants to “improve your pond” without you knowing it are also possibilities. I have seen a large number of customers (as well as a pond on my late grandfather’s farm) who never put a single fish in their pond but could catch them out. I have been surprised at the numbers and variety of fish that have popped up when a customer uses rotenone on a pond that was “never stocked”. Something is happening out there. Nature is hard on the eggs and fry (we use a hatchery for this reason), but as you said it does happen so we can’t dismiss the possibilities.
Shoot, I promised Bill I would let the board cool down before I popped up again
. Sorry to all. I’ll post some pictures if we get them this weekend, and otherwise try to keep my mouth (or hands rather) shut.
Thank you all again for the information, the corrections, and the open-minded responses you have given me over the past few weeks. Let’s really hit Bob up for a convention sometime so we can all sit down and sponge from one another.
Deb
Robinson, I read and post questions on the Miss. forum. It seems that Dennis is, in many cases, due to fear of posting misinformation, a 'by the book' poster, and doesn't post from firsthand experiences. I hope that is a kind enough assessment, especially compared to Matthew's critique under GG growth rates. Settle down matthew. It's not your money.
Deb,
Somewhere in an earlier post, you asked for a rancher to comment....well that need has probably been overcome by events now with Bob's excellent post setting the record straight on the genetics, but it did cause me, a rancher (among other things), to think about something.
First, you are exactly right...a brahama x angus, called a Brangus, will never, ever
produce an Angus offspring, in my experience, no matter how many generations you go....hence the green sunfish offspring claim is bogus.
The thing I do not understand when comparing fish crosses to cattle crosses, is the tendency for the offspring of GG, after several generations, to stunt. You've said they were "stunted GG's". Now, my Brangus cows offspring certainly do not stunt after generations. Why, in fish, unlike what I observe in cows, do the hybrids stunt after generations? Is it a genetics thing or something else?
I'm just trying to learn, fish genetics is really interesting to me and something I know very little about. Thanks.
p.s. ahhh thinking more, it must be the "inbreeding"? If I practiced "inbreeding" with cows, it would certainly result in inferior offspring. Is that it? If so, we overcome that in cows by getting rid of all offspring and buying new breeders from an outside line...same thing in GG's I bet. Okay, sorry to think outloud...please correct me if wrong, but I think I've figured it out.
p.s.s that brings up another question, are GG's more prone to effects of inbreeding than say regular BG? They must be because I never get stunted BG from successive generations of inbreeding, at least I've never seen it.
Yep, it is the whole inbreeding thing (works in humans also
). That is why predator introduction is so important. Thanks for the cattle analogy!
Deb
Oops, missed the last question. Maybe stunted is not the correct word to use. Let's say smaller than the original stock instead so everyone will together as hybrids do tend to degenerate. The F-1 GG are huge, with successive generations getting smaller (or stunted {its all verbiage}). They are still a good fish, but do not have the tremendous growth potential of the parents. Plus alot of people add bluegill, coppernose,and other bream to a stock of GG's which results in yet another cross.
Deb
Robinson, as they said in the movies "Life always finds a way".
Here's my thought on the odds. First, figure that the "normal" set of eggs will produce an extremely small number of adult (breeding size) fish.
Since we are talking essentially about a sunfish, I'll limit my post to them. Eggs that are spawned in running water are different but still have lousy odds.
Step one is the male hustling a willing female to his just built nest. It must be positioned in shallow enough water so that the sunshine can somehow get to the eggs (or so I have been told). She lays eggs that he fertilizes. She leaves and he takes over. He ontinually "sweeps" over the nest with his tail to keep silt from settling on them and to oxygenate them. He also guards the nest from the myriad of predators including just about every other fish in the pond. After watching this many times, I'm amazed that any of them make it. He also has to worry about his own safety during this time. If anything happens to him, the whole setup goes and the eggs are groceries for the other fish. If everything works just right, the eggs hatch into fry that are still pretty defenseless except for dad's protection. Quite often, he is overwhelmed by the small fish going for the fry and/or eggs and leaves. At that point, they have had it. However, some seem to make it out of the thousands of eggs laid. They exist on their yoke sack until they are big enough to graze on plankton and later small bugs. By now, they have become and will remain forage for a long time. A very small number of the eggs ever even get to the forage stage. But, if everything goes just right, it becomes a breeding size fish.
Now contrast that to an egg that is dropped randomly in the water by a bird or something else. It is neither oxygenated nor protected by dad and there is nothing to keep it from getting covered by silt. If, by some miracle, it has remained fertile during this process, it is defenseless as a fry. The very small number that occurs under ideal conditions becomes infinitesimal when deposited randomly.
However, like I originally posted, somehow mosquito fish seem to crop up. That defies all of the logic I just laid out. But I still believe that the numbers on non human intervention are almost mathematically incalculable.
Wow, Dave, and I thought bluegill were prolific. Seems as they are struggling to fight off extinction.
BM :
Food for thought.
What do you think?
---------------------------------------------
Prohibited Fishes and Aquatic Fauna
Electric Catfish African Tigerfish Airbreathing Catfish Parasitic Catfish
Electric Eel Lampreys Piranha Snakeheads
Tilapias Trahiras Airsac Catfish Green Sunfish
Australian Crayfish Zebra Mussel Mitten Crab Statutes (PDF)
To protect and conserve Florida's natural aquatic resources and help ensure public safety, the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) prohibits (see list above) or restricts (see Restricted fishes) certain non-native fishes and aquatic fauna. Moreover, no person shall allow or permit any freshwater aquatic organism not native to the state to remain in the waters of any pond which is not maintained or operated for the production of such non-native species.
The FWC uses well-defined criteria to determine where a species should appear on the list. The most current list is available by checking the statutes (See 68A-23.008). Species that were included on the list as of July 2003 are described on this page. In general, prohibited non-native aquatic species, listed in red in the link box above, may not be imported, sold, possessed or transported in Florida. Very limited exceptions are made by permit for viewing at large public aquaria or for research, provided Commission-approved maximum security requirements are met. No exceptions are made for certain prohibited species, such as piranha. Research permits for prohibited aquatic species are also very stringent.
Restricted non-native aquatic species, listed in brown in the link box above, may only be possessed under permit from the executive director. Prior to the issuance of such permit, the facilities where the restricted aquatic species are to be kept and waters where their use is intended may be inspected by Commission personnel to assure that adequate safeguards exist to prevent escape or accidental release into the waters of the state.
Note that much of the information on this page was taken from Fish base and "Living Fishes of the World," by Herald, or from the "Identification Guide to the Restricted and Prohibited Exotic Fishes," which was edited by Lt. Tom Quinn for FWC.
PROHIBITED SPECIES
GREEN SUNFISH
(Lepomis cyanellus)
Common Names - green sunfish, the hybrid is a (Georgia giant)
Description - A slender bodied bream with a maximum depth that is less than the distance from the snout to the origin of the dorsal (most sunfish are deeper bodied). Mouth relatively large, extending to the middle of the eye. Color is blue-green on back with mottled yellow green streaks. Gill cover is dark but has a light yellowish margin as does the edge of the fins.
Species - One
Range - From North America but do not naturally extend into Florida.
Habitat - Lakes and ponds.
Spawning Habits - Similar to other sunfish.
Feeding Habits - Similar to other sunfish
Age and Growth - To 12 inches and perhaps two pounds.
Potential Concerns - Known to rapidly colonize a water body but then to stunt and may also hybridize with other bream affecting the gene pool. L. cyanellus is prohibited.
Site listed below.
http://www.floridafisheries.com/Fishes/prohibited.html#greenies -------------------------------------------------
http://www.aquaticmanagement.com/history.htm Dad put several strains of these hybrids into commercial production and helped others do so. He was a prime resource for Ken Holiyoke's much advertised Georgia Giant. As a teenager, I was present on Holiyoke's farm in Alapaha, Georgia when Dad showed him how to produce them. This is a link to that site Georgia Giant Hybrid. However, the site makes exaggerated claims about the hybrid.
Byron T. Bezdek
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This may help in a year or two
The Ohio State University
South Center
Funded and funding projects:
New species or strain exploration for Ohio aquaculture industry – Determining the efficacy of culture of Georgia Giant bluegill in comparison with regular bluegill and hybrid bluegill. 09/2005 – 09/2007.
http://southcenters.osu.edu/aqua/researchs.htm
ewest, that is definitely food for thought. I will be following that experiment closely. For now, I just want BG and RES to do their thang together. When should I reduce visibility in the spring? 70-75 degrees or when for natural crossing?
ML, I was once told that inbreeding in cows is OK unless a bull mates with a "true daughter". I have no idea whether that is correct. I have to admit that I haven't seen the result of that. I've kept the same bull for 3 or 4 years. It has mated with everything. I generally changed bulls when they got about 6 or 7 years old. At that time, I understand that the sperm count drops.
Ewest, thanks for the post and links.
Hello to all!
Anyone who came in contact with Francis Bezdek was forever touched. He was by all rights a leader, not a follower, and gave a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience to the field that he essentially founded. When I first began working on the idea of hybrids some 30 plus years ago, Francis was the only person available with the same interests as I. He had already begun his trek down the hybrid route, and was readily eager to work with me in my quests. On at least 3-4 occasions that I can remember, he took time out of his busy life to join me on my farm for a week or so each visit. We worked side by side, and he stimulated me to continue on my search for the best hybrid available. I considered him a personal friend and a wonderfully kind-hearted person who was a true inspiration to me. We kept in touch often over the years before his passing, and he was nothing but a positive influence in my life and my work. He worked on hybrids, I worked on hybrids, and we worked on them together. The last fish that he and I shared the recipe on however was not the true Georgia Giant. Although we spoke on the phone often, he did not come back to the farm after I had stumbled onto the Georgia Giant. I believe he was as excited for me at that time as I was. I must again state that his influence is probably the reason I held out as long as I did while working toward the Georgia Giant (and several other hybrids [not just bream]}. It is really a loss to all of us here that he is not on this forum to share his expertise.
Ken Holyoak
BM :
You have raised a good question. I will start a thread tonight called BG X RE crosses and will include some info and questions to get others advice. I think we need to keep it seperate from this 10 page plus GG topic. ewest
Deb I assume the BG/RE would have been one of the first hybrids Ken tried. Ask Ken what were the negatives of this hybrid and please post it under Ewest new thread
Been following this post and has been very interesting, educational, and I might say entertaining. The whole discussion on green sunfish has been a kick. Not so hard on Mr. Robinson folks. I think all of us get a little sloppy when we discuss what kind of offspring result from hybrids. I mean any biologist or statistician would be the first to say that a hybrid BG's offspring can never be a pure green sunfish or BG. I don't think anyone here means that when they talk about fish reverting, including the fisheries guy from Mississippi. I'm not a genetics expert but I do understood probability and the concept of dominant and recessive genetics. Mr. Lusk did a great job of explaining how this works but I can add something to his confetti analogy that I think will help explain what people have seen when they see hybrid offspring that look like green sunfish. Instead of confetti imagine you have a bag full of M&Ms. You cross a green sunfish and a bluegill. Let's say the bluegill represents black and blue M&M's. The sunfish represents green and yellow M&M's. The first generation hybrid cross may have equal amounts of black, blue, green, and yellow M&M's. In subsequent generations some of the bags will inevitably have almost all green and yellow M&M's with only a couple of black and blue ones. No future generation will ever have zero black and blue M&M's because those genes were in the parents and just get covered up by dominant genes. But some bags have almost all green and yellow with only one or two black and blue ones. Now you melt the whole bag of M&M's. What's happened to the black and blue ones? There still there, you just can't see them in the mess. Is this a pure bag of green and yellow M&M's? No, the couple of black and blue ones are still there you just can't see them. I maintain that what Mr. Robinson has seen in subesquent generations of HBG are fish that look and act just like green sunfish. Are they pure green sunnies? No. The bluegill lineage is mixed in there somewhere but has gotten so diluted you can't see it. So come on you all, eighth generation GG's are no longer GG. Sorry Deb but to say so is a mind game unless GG is a new species. All offspring will have some random mix of genes from both parents with characteristics that depend on the combination of genes they ended up with. Many will no doubt be very different from the original stock. That's where the bad traits show up. And if there is any green sunfish in the mix some offspring will look just like green sunfish even though they technically aren't. When we say hybrids have "reverted" we're just a little sloppy with terminology. If you want to know if any GG offspring can look and act like green sunnies then I say the question to ask Deb is whether there is any green sunfish in the mix. The secret formula will not be compromised just by admitting that one part of the recipe is green sunfish. And this would clear up the whole issue. I think anyone who buys GG deserves to know if they will some day "revert" go green sunfish. If there is green sunfish in the lineage then anyone who says they "revert" to green sunfish may not be technically correct but they are correct in saying some of the kids will look just like green sunnies. No one will be able to tell they aren't without a DNA or some kind of chromosome analysis. I'm not trying to pick on GG, in fact I'd still love to get some one day but if we are all interested in truth I think we need to at least know if there are GSF in the mix.
Well said, BZ. I think to boil it down, some of the subsequent progeny will have large mouths and spawn once annually and others won't. It really would be interesting to know what F5 and so on will "probably" be like.
Very well stated! The M & M analogy is a perfect comparison. You are right to point out that we all get caught up (or mixed up) in the verbiage we use to describe hybrids. This being said, I do not agree that eighth generation GG’s are not called GG’s. I promise you there is no mind game here, but it just stands to reason that they would still be titled that due to the lineage. One could name each generation different, but I do not see the purpose behind that. Take your candy analogy. Once you have mixed the bag of M & M’s several times, do you still have M & M’s? Or have you made a new candy treat? It does need to be explained that the subsequent generations are different from the parents, with the traits and appearances of each generation being less likely to predict (and less desirable). Calling for predators? Eradicate the subsequent generations, and the discussion is null. Our main goal with the GG was to create a bream sportsman’s dream (not to mention a child’s). In any hybrid the first generation will far outweigh any subsequent ones due to the controlled environment in which they were “made.”
I believe you have a very good grasp on the genetic’s concept, but I do not agree that the offspring would not fall under the same name. If I am wrong, then what should we call them? The possibilities would be endless due the uncontrolled environment they would be in. Throw a few other types of bream in a GG pond, and someone could spend a lifetime identifying each offspring and naming it solely on its individual traits. In summary we just keep it as a “cluster” name due to original parentage. Kind of following the KISS theory. :p
If I am not making any sense, it might be due to MY offspring (two ½ years) who keeps crawling around underneath my legs and over my lap ( trying to type in his two cents worth ). I do not think that is a trait he inherited from me.
As for the green’s in the GG mix, I will have to ask Ken. I really do not know. That is a secret he keeps well hidden obviously because no one has been able to duplicate the fish to date.
Thank you also to the gentleman who provided the link to the Ohio research department. This will indeed be a good study to follow, as all the fish will be controlled. This in turn will give us a very accurate take on the true comparisons of the different fish under study.
Deb
Wouldn't in the analogy M&Ms bream/sunfish family species.
Let's call 8th genaration & on GEORGIA GREEN SUNFISH
Good point Deb, what should we call them? I guess that's why someone invented the terms F1, F2, etc. So I still say it is not correct and perhaps misleading to call them GG. Not saying you are misleading on purpose it's just that F2 are not the same as F1 and just like the analogy if there is GSF in the mix a later generation could look and act just like GSF. Remember that's what this whole discussion was about. Are they GG? Are they GSF? No they are the F8 generation of GG. I think I just got you to admit that if there is GSF in the mix then GG offspring could look and act just like GSF. I'm not sure but one could perhaps argue that there is a precident for calling a mixed breed animal what it looks like and not what its parents were. Take horses, if two mixed breeds who look like quarter horses have an offspring that is paint (I think that can happen) everyone will call it a paint. They don't call it a quarter horse. Anyone think of examples with other animals?
Take a moment if you will and move from fish to flowers (as hybrids). Move down from Family, to Genus, to species, and then you will discover subspecies. I think this would be more in line with what are talking about. F-1 = First filial generation or the first generation offspring from the parents. Offspring from the F1 hybrids are called F2 hybrids. Some will look like the parents, others like the original (grandparent), and entirely new combinations are also possible. You never know due to the uncontrolled environment and most importantly the role genetics play. Survival of the fittest is derivative of the traits needed for the particular environment of the subject. Introduce the dominant gene which varies in each subspecies based on need (and often just chance), and you are presented with a wide variety of possibilities.
Quote from a link below:
"Things start to get complicated when variation within species needs recognition by use of further names. When plants have a wide distribution in the wild, natural selection and evolution work at different rates in different areas, especially if populations become geographically isolated. Such populations are often distinguished as subspecies (abbreviated to subsp. or occasionally ssp. but this can easily be confused with spp., the abbreviation for species plural, so is not recommended), easily attributable to the species but differing in significant characters. Once a particular population is recognized as a subspecies and given a name, plants typical of the species automatically become a subspecies bearing the name of the species."
http://www.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/plantnaming.asp I enjoy horticulture also, so pardon all the plant analogies but please do not dismiss them.
So to summarize, F-8 GG’s are still GG’s but with different characteristics than those of the parent stock.
Any other posts on this will be continuing in a circular pattern with you and I continuing to bump our heads together. So we will agree to disagree, respect one another’s opinions, and leave the truth to science.
Deb
I cant understand why anyone continues bumping heads with anyone. The facts are, hybrids of sunfish are not intended to be perpetuated; who cares what they are called. Call them LMB food. Please, let's get off this Merry go Round.
Bob, close the thread, please!
"the phenomenon of reductionn in fitness following intraspecific hybridization (matings between individuals from different populations), either in the immediate hybrids or perhaps delayed until the backcross or later generations."
This is the definition of " outbreeding depression" from the text of " Population Genetics: Principles and Applications for Fisheries Scientists" , Eric M. Hallerman, Editor , AFS 2003.
If you want to read about it and have access to the book look at ppgs 242-245 para. 11.4.
You decide if it applies or not and what is at risk in your pond. Until the science is known and understood by disinterested Fisheries Scientists you take an unknown risk.
Hybrid sunfish have a very limited niche as described by Bob Lusk in his posts and books ( speaking of hybrid sunfish -- "...and the fish ,although hybrid , have a tendency to reproduce just enough to be a headache to a manager. When they do reproduce, they cannot physically be what their parents are, because they are "backcrosses," inferior to their parents. " [ Basic Pond Management , Lusk and McDonald 1993 pg. 36 ]. This is echoed by opinions of all the Fisheries Scientists I know or have read.
If you want GG in your pond it is up to you. I would make two suggestions --1) do not count on them to create self sustaining sunfish populations with the fitness of the original hybrids and 2) don't put them in ponds that have or will have other types of sunfish (BG/RE etc.)as you have no idea of what the results would be with an outcross of a GG x BG or RE will leave you with. ewest
Ewest your two suggestions are exactly what Kens catalog states clearly
Well, my situation will be interesting, although GG's are not involved (standard HBG, purchased from MO hatcher).
My first pond has HBG, standard BG, CC and LMB along with RES in it. It is just starting to produce some nice gills. Second pond (not filled yet) will have same mix, with the exception of the HBG. I'm planning on leaving them out, as I've a source for some really DANDY BG's, and am able to catch them readily.
Maybe I shouldn't have mixed the two, but they're both in there. Time will tell. I'm not the most patient person, but over the years, I'll be able to see the difference, if one exists.
Matt :
Note that my "suggestions" were for GG . They did not address standard HBG . The info is known on HBG , BG and RE and thus a pond owner can have a good idea on what will happen and make an informed choice. I would not worry about what you did . I bet it will turn out ok. The only ones I would caution you about are GSF and GG. The first with known poor results and the second with unknown results. ewest
The only ones I would caution you about are GSF and GG. The first with known poor results and the second with unknown results . ewest
That's why I am skeptical about GG's. 40 yrs of production & no data.
All these questions should have already been answered.