My LMB are looking pretty bad. Pulled a dead 17" fish off the 2-acre pond yesterday and may have quite a few more right behind him. He didn't show signs of disease except for a 0.25 inch tear along the lower jaw with a small piece of skin hanging down.
I'm seeing pink lesions on the sides of the fish usually on the gill plate or right behind the pectoral fin. Also seeing the pectoral fin reduced to a thin pink bone. Also seeing lesions on the mouth, usually on the bottom but sometimes on the top near the tip. I'm guessing that it is currently affecting 5-7 of my estimated original 25 LMB. Some of the fish have a clean notch out of the caudal fin. The younger recruits don't appear to be affected. The larger fish are what is left of my original plant (3-years old). The fish continue to feed well.
The only changes in the pond that I'm aware of are the 125 BG added April 16th. We found 3-4 of those fish dead within two weeks with a white fungus. I recently saw another with a sponge-like yellow growth on his side that plastered the pectoral fin to the body. We have one brood of geese (5 goslings) since May 14th. The heron continue to wreak havoc and I originally thought that some of the lesions were due to near misses but I no longer think this is the cause.
I don't have the knowledge or experience to diagnose the problem. My theories include:
1) fin/mouth rot from a decrease in water quality or pathogen brought in with the BG
2) stress from spawning (normal attrition?)
I could catch and photograph a couple but have not wanted to further stress the fish
Can you medicate fish chow for fin rot?
Is there any specific water quality parameters that I should monitor.
Any ideas would be appreciated.
Steve, I know there is a fish food that has some antibiotics in it. From my very basic understanding, I believe the downside risk is that the fish could become susceptible (sp?) to other infections due to a reduced capability of their immune systems caused by the antibiotic.
I'd like to keep hearing about what you discover.
I can find out the brand/name of the fish food if you desire.
Sunil, Thanks if you know the brand name I'd like to read up on the food. Can't tell if the problem is getting worse or better. Was hoping to get a few more responses. A separate category on fish disease would be a good idea. Tried searching but haven't found anything similar.
Antibiotics don't cause weakness of the immune system in fish, humans or whatever the host is for the bacteria (am a physician). Think of the fish as a house and the bacteria as rats. The antibiotic is rat poison and does not interract with the house, at least in principle, but rather interracts with the rats. This is not always strictly true, however, as we know that people and animals occasionally have allergies and other reactions to antibiotics, but these are idiosyncracies and not part of the usual game plan. See no harm coming from trying antibiotics if you can figure out a way to get them to the fish. Whether they help is another matter.
Steve, Purina appears to be the big boy on the block in all types of feed. I would contact them.
This is what I've found so far. Thanks for the replys.
The April stocked fish were probably stressed from the trip, handling, or from temperature stress. Maybe it was passed to the previous inhabitants by contact during feeding or as an opportunistic pathogen during stress from spawning or possible decreased immunity during the Spring warmup.
May treat with antibiotic feed or let it run its course, not sure if the potassium permanganate bath is doable. This is all new to me. I knew it would be fun, but not this much. Any other comments from people who have experienced this problem would be greatly appreciated.
Red Sore Disease aeromonas
Look at Rangen feeds in Angleton, Tx. I think I saw a medicated feed. Maybe Meadowlark will chime in. he gets his feed from them.
Steve, I've had a call into my fish guy, but we've been missing each other via phone. I'm going to see him tomorrow.
I'll get the name of the med. food. Also, if you want, I could put you in contact with him, and he may be able to ship you some if you want it.
Sorry for the delay.
The brand of medicated feed that my fish guy has is called Melick. The active ingredient is called Romet.
I truly don't know anything about this stuff. I have not tried it yet.
Sunil & Burgermeister - Thanks:
I usually get my feed from Melick and talked to them about it and also to Zeigler. Ended up ordering from Zeigler and started the feeding last night (5-days). It is a sinking feed, which is more difficult to monitor. Some of the LMB spit it out (palatability is a major issue with Romet). The problem seems to be spreading but the good news is that the fish are still feeding. The difficult thing is administering the proper dose of 2% feed with respect to weight of the fish.
I'll post an update after the five day period.
Finfish Xtra Booster
I don't know about in ponds, but I am suprised to hear a "physician" state that antibiotics can't make humans more susceptible to infection.
Antibiotics can and will kill off the beneficial normal flora in humans, paving the way for pathologic bacteria to cause illness.
Lrunkle, didn't they teach that at your med school? (ever hear of a a C. diff infection?)
I would be very cautious.
Duke,
The doc said "Antibiotics don't cause weakness of the immune system". That is a true statement. Note the specific referral to weakness of the immune system. Your's is a true statement also.
Steve,
Have you contacted your supplier for help in this matter? Perhaps he can provide more information if he has experienced this problem or has other customers experiencing this problem.
You might want to consider contacting the State Wildlife Department for help. I think the first step is to identify the disease before treating it. If you have a disease that is not treatable, it will be better to do a complete kill and even perhaps treat the pond with cholorine before the disease spreads. I am glad I do not have a pond downstream of yours....
I know of a super treatment for just about everything but the guys on this site bashed me really hard for mentioning it.
Please keep us informed.
Sunil was concerned that giving antibiotics to his fish might make them more susceptible to infection, and they very likely could.
In humans the normal flora of the GI tract and other parts of the body play a very important role in protecting the body against infection, hence they are part of the "immune system", a generic term.
When you remove the beneficial bacteria in the body, you are creating a niche which pathologic organisms can exploit and colonize.
Not trying to pick nits, but indiscriminate antibiotic use can have very negative consequences.
Duke,
That's true but sometimes you have at pick the lesser of two evils. That's coming from a fish farmer.
Try sending in sick fish to a lab to be diagnosed so you can use the "right" antibiotic. While your fish are dying the lab takes at least a week to get back to you (many times a more)and refuses to speculate or advise you on what to do in the meantime.
I've had at least one instance where antibiotics saved my butt. Romet is a broad spectrum antibiotic so if you're sure it's bacterial it can do the job.
That said most disease outbreaks are stress mediated so one should go all out to remove any stress factors such as low oxygen, overcrowding, less then optimum or more than optimum temps, bad feed etc. Many times if you think ahead and remove any stress factors ahead of time you won't have problems. However with fish farming at high densities that's not always possible.
Ok, you got me. If I may address the soap box. I'm not disputing the fact that indiscriminate use of antibiotics can have harmful effects such as creating resistant strains of bacteria. My feeding of five pounds of Romet feed over a five day period in an isolated sand pit with no inlet or outlet is not likely to cause problems to anyone. There is one day of treatment to go and the fish are showing a marked improvement. I'm being very careful to administer the proper dose. Based on the literature, under dosing and/or prophylactic feeding are the primary cause of creating resistant strains.
Dennis, I've posted three links, which I considered the most directly relevant of the 25 or more journal articles that I've read on the subject. I've also made several phone calls to fisheries biologists. Yes, in a perfect world I should have had the bacterium isolated, however, the ubiquitous nature of aeromonads was pretty convincing that this was indeed the problem. As far as being downstream from me, you don't have to be, you already have all the same bacteria in your pond (standard issue).
Duke's concern should be addressed to the millions of physicians who over prescribe and the food industry who feeds millions of pounds of anitbiotics to cattle, chickens, fish, etc. One of the suppliers that I talked to had just sold their entire inventory (44,000 lbs) to one customer. The Koi people feed medicated foods like it's candy.
Duke, your input is valued. Please share your field of expertise.
I'd like to hear Bill Cody's, Bob Lusk's, or Dave Willis's opinion on this. Haven't seen posts from them in a long time.
Steve,
I'm actually with you on this and was countering more what Duke had to say about concerns of using antibiotics.
I've been there done that in your place.
Steve -- I don't have a lot of factual information to add. I guess in general I'd say that I do worry about over-using antibiotics. There is no doubt that resistant strains can and do evolve. However, I will admit that I at times still do use "prophylactic" treatments, so I am not without fault. For example, when hauling bass or bluegills at warm water temperatures, they sure are very susceptible to a bacterial disease (Columnaris). So, I like to haul them in water with an antibiotic. Am I part of the problem?
I have been posting, but it must not be on topics that interest you?? :-)
Dave
Thanks Cecil, had my reply window open for a long time so didn't see your post until after I had sent mine. Always appreciate your experience with these matters when going through them for the first time.
I felt that it was time to act and didn't want to wait for the pathology, which as you said would have taken at least a week (or more) to confirm that the infection was treatable with Romet. If some want to call it irresponsible so be it. I can't let a three year investment go down the tubes when the means to treat it is readily available for $29 and all of the affected water is within my control. Still have not identified the stress factor and I'm sure its a combination of things.
Thanks Dave, missed another post while writing. I better start reviewing this board more thoroughly.
Guys, I am not trying to give Steve a hard time about using antibiotics. If my pond was sick, I am sure I would try almost anything to save it.
I was addressing what the "doc" said as I thought it was a bit misleading, at least in regard to abx use in humans.
If my post came off as harsh or judgemental, I am sorry, it really was not meant that way.
Good luck.
Duke,
In regards to your, "If my post came off as harsh or judgemental, I am sorry, it really was not meant that way," I didn't think you were. I hope I did not come off that way either. I just disagreed somewhat and got on my soap box! I suppose as I get older I'll get even more opininated!
All in all the folks on this site (you included) are quite civil. I can't believe the contrast between this site and another trade site I frequent.