I am pretty sure one of these is a stone roller, but the other ones look different (at least in color) from the creek chubs that I caught with them. Any positive IDs on the silver ones?

Bottom one is a white sucker.

Can you give a description of where the other three were caught? I'm guessing IN? What type of BOW? I have good ideas but that will help...

The two middle ones are some sort of shiner similar to the narrow bodied emerald shiner, but likely not an emerald. In the one picture you can see that the lateral line has a dip in it in before the dorsal fin. I wish the top one was up from the bottom of the bag so we could better see its entire head. It reminds me of a silverjaw minnow (aka longjaw minnow).
http://www.fosc.org/Images/Fish/large/silverjaw-minnow.jpg

Bill, I was thinking it was a silverjaw minnow as well. Unfortunately, the corner of the container blocks seeing the jaw which is tell tail.

I would say it is a silver shiner, Notropis photogenis.

Well, I was so sure that the sucker was a stone roller that I released two into a pond that has GSH and FHM in it. I am planning to add SMB, YP, RES this fall or next. I seem to remember that white suckers will not breed in a pond, so hopefully they will eventually get pulled out or die of old age. I also released the shiners (8) into this pond. Hopefully they will be good forage. I put about 20 creek chubs in the LMB, BG pond as food. After this last goof with the sucker, I will not be adding any fish with a turned down mouth to my ponds. After I released the sucker, I started to realize that it could have been a carp, but the shape seemed to tubular for that. I know that I should have waited for you guys, but it was getting late and I was not sure if they would make it in a bucket. All the fish were caught in a small stream that is way down due to no rain.

Set your self up a live box or build one to hold fish for a few days until you get verification as to what they are. A live box can be made from 1/2" hardware cloth or plastic mesh on a wood or PVC frame. Float it in the pond and you won't need aeration to keep fish alive. A mini-live box would be the liner from a two piece minnow bucket.

Great idea. I really have no excuse for letting them go in the pond. I know better!

Yeah, I wouldn't stress the suckers. They will most likely get huge and die of old age, but it will be very unlikely that they will spawn... Even if they do spawn, it may not be a very big deal. They are not overly fast growing and would provide excellent forage.

This pond is fed with run off and field tiles, so there is very little sustained running water. The suckers were less that 4 inches long, so hopefully they will not eat too many minnows. I was hoping to diversify the shiner forage, but I am just not that knowledgeable about identifying the minnows, and even when I have seen a species (like stone rollers), I seem to goof. Hopefully the hatchery will have some YP, SMB, and RES this fall so I can get a few preditors in there.

I doubt the suckers will eat a single forage fish.

That's good to know. At least I got a lesson that turned out not to be so harsh. No more releasing fish without a PondBoss review! I am really grateful for the help from the experts! It would be great to have folks closer with similar interests.

White Suckers are excellent for NP bait.

A gal who run's a local tackle/bait shop told me they were taken off the gestapo list for VHS. No papers required. They ain't cheap either!

Come on down and help me seine

BTW - I was feeding the BG today and Yerdle the snapping turtle showed up as he occasionally does. This time he ignored the food and focused on the BG. Snap, snap, snap - success! He nailed a free meal. First time that I ever saw that.

Yeah, it can be real hard to find someone to help run a seine. I have come up with a method to run a 30' beach seine by myself. It isn't as effective, but still works fairly well.

The two suckers may eat a little algae and do a little bottom roiling to help make a little turbidity to the water (aeration mixing) to help reduce algae growth. I've caught white suckers 22"-24" long. IMO white suckers would be better algae eaters than koi or carp because the suckers will not successful spawn while koi, carp and goldfish regularly produce offspring.
http://www.lakesuperiorstreams.org/understanding/whitesucker.html

More minnow pictures for ID. This time they will stay in a fish tank until you guys weigh in.

Those are all shiners and the largest one (last pic) is a common shiner. Not positive about the ID of the smaller ones. Let's see what CJ says. Notice the dark or dusky spot at the front base of the dorsal fin of the smaller shiners. This is likely a 'key' character. The northern redfin shiner has this character which is what I think they are. IMO they are not common shiner because the insertion of the dorsal fin of the smaller shiners is slightly behind the pelvic fins, a feature not displayed by common shiners.

None of those photographed in the bag will be a problem in the pond but they might not spawn. We have found out from another member here that common shiners will spawn in a pond if there is current or splashing current from something like a waterfall.

Looks like a combination of redfin shiners not in breeding colors and striped shiners(close relative of common shiner). They are all definitely shiner species though. As Bill said, they most likely will not spawn in your pond but shouldn't cause any issues.

Thank you both. I keep hoping that I'll catch something to improve the forage base for future SMB, but my source is a small steam, so it is no surprise that they are not adapted to spawning in a pond. I'll add them just in case there are some other shiner species in the mix that will spawn. They all look very much alike to me, and none have "sucker" mouths, so I think I am OK?

Are there any common fish (especially shiners) in small streams in Indiana that make good forage species in ponds (spawn)?

How small of a stream are we talking? Bluntnose minnows and spotfin shiners are both found in IN, they're generally in streams 15'-50' in size.

Do you have a larger seine? If so, go to a bigger river near you and try seine along rocky rip rap or other cover...

The stream usually averages over 15' wide but is way down due to drought. Maybe I should seine the deeper holes? I have stayed in the shallower parts to keep my shorts dry. There is at least one hole with some large carp still in it.

Seining the pools during low water can catch lots of fish species. You can get spotfins and steelcolor shiners in a stream that size. Both look very similar and are very good pond spawners. Bluntnose should be common in streams the size you mention and smaller even ditches. I catch lots of bluntnose in 1ft-4ft wide roadside drainage ditches. You will need quite a bit of submerged vegetation to maintain these fish in a pond with smallies which are pretty aggressive on minnows and shiners. These minnow/shiner species are the backbone for yellow perch fisheries in my area.

For a healthy smallie pond I think the larger individuals of golden shiner will be the best shiner to flourish and persist.

Bill, why is that? Is that because the Golden Shiners, at "middle age" adult size would be too big for the SMB to eat unless they (the SMB) are exceptionally large and that leaves a sizeable GSH brood population in the pond?

In addition to esshop's question, and based on the need for submerged vegetation to maintain SMB forage, am I better waiting till next fall to add SMB, YP, and RES to the pond that was built last year, and stocked with GSH and FHM this spring (I see los of very small fish now)? Alternatively, would stocking a small number of a smaller size of these preditors be OK this fall - maybe 20 of each in the 3/4 acre pond?

Having adult shiners going 8"+ helps them maintain numbers compared to other species of shiner. Steelcolor are the next biggest with a large adult exceeding 6". A reason why LCS are also a good option is their larger max size as well. Even GSH without proper habitat and poor management will be extirpated from a pond over time though. Allowing a good generation of brooder fish can increase how long GSH or LCS are present. That first original generation stays too large for all but the biggest SMB to eat. Until they die of old age, they'll pull off a spawn each year...

Even though banded killifish only top out at 5", they're very effective at avoiding predation. I commonly see mine skipping across the surface to avoid be eaten. However, they get hammered in the cold water winter months. All I need are a few dozen adults to survive the winter to bring numbers back up though. They're very prolific spawners.

CJ summarizes the forage questions for SMB well. As to RAH adding fingerling predators this fall or next fall both ways have pros and cons. RES for sure can be added now. Actually the breeder RES could have been added this spring so they establish a stronger numbers earlier. I would also add the YP this fall and use 2 or 3 size classes. Adult perch usually prey on the smaller minnows (1"-1.7" esp FHM) first and leave adult sizes (2.5"-3"+) until food items become limited. Apparently this is because the larger minnows swim faster, are harder to catch, and handling time until swallowing is longer thus not 'easy' for the YP. The whole process goes smoothly until the SMB are 10"-12" and they start aggressively eating the smaller and larger minnows (3"-5"); most anything that fits in their mouth. They are pretty fast predators and efficient at capturing smaller fish. If the YP are pellet trained you can stock larger numbers (upto300/ac) of them since they will be using pellets and not minnows as primary forage items. Larger YP will spawn next spring (Apr) and provide small fingerlings for the SMB diet.

Wait to next fall for adding SMB fingerlings only if you want to allow a significant amount of plant cover to develop as refuge areas for the small fish - minnows shiners - fingerlings. Stocking YOY fingerling SMB 2"-3" will not eat a significant number of larger minnows until smallies are 5" long and a good number of that forage for juvenile SMB will be young of year perch if present. Crayfish will diversify the forage for SMB. This entire plan allows time for the largest shiners (GS) to continue growing to the safe zone size of 7"-8"+ lengths and time for some plants to establish sizable "beds" or stands as refuge areas for all small fish and invertebrates.

Ok - Sounds like I do not need to worry about larger RES, YP, or GSH eating small SMB next fall? I am holding off on adding crayfish (although some have already shown up on their own - probably out of the field tile) until I have some decent submerged plants so they do not hammer my water lilies. I think that I remember that it is hard to find a source for LCS. If the SMB will not be hurt by waiting until next fall, I am good with being patient.

Being patient for adding SMB will have rewards, and in the meantime you can enjoy all the benefits that fast growing pellet fed yellow perch can provide. You may like how fishery responds so well that you decide to not even add the smallies who will definitely change the dynamics of the YP-RES -minnow/shiner balance. After seeing what a YP dominated fishery can produce in a few years, you may decide to use a non-reproducing sportfish predator in the pond such as HSB or walleye instead of SMB.

My current philosophy is one of trying to get a sustainable system going without much input. Thus I really want to have species that will breed as the longterm goal. I have a hundred acres of wildlife habitat that I am developing/restoring and I am not getting any younger (and funds are limited). I am happy with this approach in my LMB/BG/RES pond. I did have a fish kill in that pond a few years back (under snow-covered ice) but it is coming back slowly. I must admit that I enjoy throwing in some pellets in this established pond to see the BG feed (about 75 seem to show up), but the new pond is further away from the house. I really want this new pond for some SMB fishing for visitors. I have 2 more potential pond sites and some house repairs to get done. With plans for the next 200 years in place, I have to prioritize. I know that more intense management would yield good results because I farm part time, but I am OK with less than optimal production and enjoy the challange of trying to get a balance in the ponds (and surrounding areas). Just controlling the thousands of willow seedlings and hundreds of cattail volunteers around the new pond is challenge enough.

More minnows for ID please.

Top 2, gambusia/mosquitofish

Middle two, some sort of shiner, most likely common or striped.

Bottom 1, creek chub.

On the gambusia - should I add them to a pond that has FHM and GSH, and will have RES, YP, and SMB? Do they do any harm as a forage species?

I am not a fan of them personally. I would keep them out.

How do you tell the shiners from the creek chubs?

First thing to notice is the comparative size of the mouth. Almost twice as large for the creek chub. Next look at the structure, shape, size and pattern and often color or brightness of the scales. Usually noticeably different for shiners compared to C.chub. I use scale density (relative size and number along lateral line) and size of mouth as first to notice factors. Some shiner species have distinct markings on the lateral line scales making them quite apparent, not true for C.Chubs where lateral line is hard to distinguish. The body shape in terms of cross section is more roundish for the c.chub vs more laterally compressed for the shiners. When you learn to look all three types of features for each separating the two is not too difficult. It takes some practice comparing the two and looking for the main separating features, then it becomes easier. Technically the c.chub will have a tiny barbel in the back end or lower corner of the jaw, that is much easier to see in the larger individuals 6"-9".

I agree with the ids.

There are several types of Gams those look like ... Eastern Mosquitofish, Gambusia holbrooki

see http://web1.cnre.vt.edu/efish/families/poeciliidae.html

Sounds like I am better off not putting gambusia in the pond.

RAH, I'm just the opposite of CJ. They seem to last longer in a pond than FHM, so I like 'em.

I was about to add gams to my ponds when another forum member warned me about their aggressiveness and tendancy to interfere with reproduction of your other minnow species, unsure to what extent this occurs. I did not add them and so far have fhm and gsh in the ponds

Its always easier to exclude something rather than try to remove something later. I'll hold of for now on the gambusia, but I may rethink this if the SMB (which I plant to add in the fall of 2014) ever over-populate or the forage do not hold up. I am hoping to get RES and YP soon, but the hatchery that I was planning to get them from is very slow on returning emails. It still may be too early.

The hatchery may not contact you until they are sure they have the fish available or seined/collected from their ponds or purchased elsewhere. Numerous smaller and some fairly large fish farms buy a lot of their stocker fish and resell them. As a backup I would search out an additional supplier in case the 1st choice fails.

I have a second choice but it will likely cost more. They said that they would contact me when they had the fish in fall, but I deal with lots of moving parts in my job, so I have learned to check on things.

Gambusia are very easy to establish even in ponds with mature predator populations. In my opinion, if you can find banded killiefish or a topminnow species, I think they would fit a similar niche but not have near the issues gambusia cause.

What are the issues?

I think they eat bass eggs

When trying to have other species of forage fish, gambusia are nasty as hell. They will harass pick out and dominate fish 3 times their size. They are also effective eggs eaters, on eggs that are broadcast and left alone, like GSH eggs. I don't think they make a very good forage because of their size and their habitat preference.

Fish ID please

Guessed it was a creek chub and released it into the LMB pond.

Sorry I didn't get to your ID sooner, but you were right it is a creek chub and is likely already food in there is any bass 14" or bigger in there. One smaller than that might even been able to down him... And it is a him. HAHA

Thank you. Past help from the generous members of this forum are even able to help an ignorant fellow like me! I may have luck and soon post photos of what I hope are small SMB.

Are there any fish that resemble shiners (except gizzard shad) found in Indiana streams, that would be bad for a SMB pond? I think the dorsal fin is different enough on a gizzard shad (shark-shaped) that I could weed these out. I think I can weed out others due to the turned down mouth.