Pond Boss
Posted By: Brettski Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 05/29/09 06:37 PM
I'm spinning this thread off a post that Ryan Freeze just made on the "Pond Amenities" thread. He noted life saving equipment at the pond-side.
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Who in their right mind could argue this logic....right? It sure makes sense to me, particularly if you have family and friends in or near the water.
But, what if you don't. I mean, what if you're an absentee pondmeister. If you have life-saving equipment clearly visible and available at the pondside, and an univited guest decides to go swimming in your pond and a deadly catastrophe occurs to them, has the pond owner unwittingly provided an unsigned swimming invitation? Does properly displayed live-saving equipment leave a litigation loophole that might come back to bite the owner in court?
Posted By: RobA Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 05/29/09 07:30 PM
Good question. I'm an absentee owner until we move in 3 years. I put up a life ring and rope last year. It's hanging on a 4x4 post next to the dock...and 3 feet away is another 4x4 post with a "No Trespassing" sign and a "No swimming, boating or fishing" sign. There are 2 other posts with signs on them around the pond as well. I still worry sometimes.
Posted By: Ryan Freeze Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 05/29/09 07:31 PM
That's why you have it hanging under the pond rules.

Ponds are treated different than swimming pools, laws are different but it probably comes down to your particular state.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 05/29/09 09:29 PM
Every state is very different... In VA the land owner has a lot of protections, other states are more liberal and don't protect the land owner as much. I would personally put a posted sign at least every 30 ft around my pond with No Trespassing, etc. The life ring would be a great idea as RobA said, right underneath and Pond Rules sign. I would photograph all those signs and document where each one is located on and around your pond. It all may seem like a pain now, but when you get sued, you'll be glad you did this. Check with your local game warden or police officer. Most are more then willing to give you free professional advise for your situation... Each state has different laws about trespass, what the definition is and what teh penalties are. A pond that is properly posted, with a life ring left for the safety of those who are legally permitted to use to pond would in my opinion be less liability in a civil case.
Posted By: RobA Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 05/30/09 11:54 AM

Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 05/30/09 12:57 PM
Very nice Rob!
Posted By: TOM G Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 05/31/09 10:37 AM
RobA,dont mind me,Im not swimming,fishing,or boating.Im just lurking.
Posted By: eddie_walker Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 05/31/09 12:40 PM
Rob,

Nice looking pier. Did you just do this? Is there a thread on it someplace? I'd love to hear some details on it, and what else you have planned for it. Or will there be a railing, bench or walkway? What did you use for the decking and skirting? I can't tell if it's freshly painted, or you used a composite of some kind.

Thanks,
Eddie
Posted By: cliffbrook Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 05/31/09 03:07 PM
you guys are really making me scratch my head.

just fill up those holes and plant soybeans. you wont have to worry about trespassers, muskrats or lawyers.

build it and they will come

all the life comes to the water

i am going to pee in your pond, start worrying

and if you come by mine, i am telling you i do alot of target practice (just ask the heron) and there are some pretty big beaver traps (drowner sets). but really what are you guys smoking to be so paranoid
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 05/31/09 04:11 PM
Over the past few years in California at least the tide has changed somewhat regarding "Attractive Nuisance" laws. The old laws that pretty much placed ALL of the liability on land owners has been revised. There are still "attractive nuisance" laws but the circumstances have been more clearly defined (pools are still strictly controlled as are unattended refridgerators left outside). Ponds owners have been given something of a break with regard to liability and pond ownership.

Please note trespasser = an uninvited person on the property.

An invited guest has an entirely different set of laws that, for the most part, favor the invited guest.

The text that appears in italics below is from a 2006 article on California's attractive nuisance laws and pond ownership:


REVIEW OF PREMISES LIABILITY LAW
The traditional approach varied the duties owed to the entrant based upon the benefit the entrant bestowed upon the owner or possessor, with an adult trespasser the lowest duty is owed. An owner or possessor of land only has a duty to refrain from willfully or wantonly injuring an adult trespasser.

Child trespassers are treated differently. Under the “attractive nuisance doctrine” if a landowner has a reasonable expectation that children will be attracted to the premises by a dangerous artificial condition on the land, trespassing children can be treated legally as an invitee. As to invitees, the landowner must make and keep the premises safe unless warned of existing dangers. Potentially, this doctrine has a wide reach with respect to agricultural. Many farm assets such as livestock, machinery and equipment can attract curious children to the premises. For farm ponds, most courts that have considered the question have indicated that bodies of water are not attractive nuisances and that child trespassers will be treated the same as adult trespassers in terms of the duty that the landowner or occupier of the real estate owes to them. The attractive nuisance doctrine only applies to artificial conditions on the land. The doctrine does not apply to natural bodies of water. However, the natural bodies of water exception does not apply when the child is an invitee. For farm ponds located remote areas, most courts hold that it would be an unfair burden on property owners and occupiers to have to shoulder liability for injury to child trespassers.

However, items associated with farm ponds (such as a pier, dock or tree tire swing) can be attractive nuisances.


Based upon my research and discussion with an attorney, I have made sure my entire property is fenced and there are many more "no trespassing" signs placed on the fence line than is required by law. In addition in multiple areas immediately adjecent to the pond I have also placed no trespassing signs. My particular pond is not viewable from any public location - basically a person would have to be trespassing in order to learn that I have a pond.

What I do find interesting though is the last sentence about piers, docks and swings. (I don't have any of these on my pond but I want to build a floating dock).


DISCLAIMER:
JHAP is not an attorney. This dribble is provided for informational and amusement purposes only. Although in his younger days JHAP was an attractive nuisance to most of the girls that he zealously pursued this does not make JHAP an attractive nuisance expert. Using the above citiation for any purposes other than what it is intended for, which in case you're wondering is mererly to provide fodder for discussion, is strictly forbidden and blatantly foolish.

Posted By: burgermeister Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 05/31/09 04:11 PM
Pond, dock and amenities look great, RobA. Two ways to go about it, play dumb, or try to outsmart the wheels of justice. Both will probably cost you in certain cirdumstances. Playing dumb is cheaper, but I will be putting up an electric fence. Building benches and purchasing life rings for the 4th with 7 little ones coming. Will remove the life rings when invited company is not there.
Posted By: RobA Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/01/09 12:23 AM
 Originally Posted By: cliffbrook
you guys are really making me scratch my head...... but really what are you guys smoking to be so paranoid


lawyers...
Posted By: RobA Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/01/09 12:43 AM
 Originally Posted By: eddie_walker
Rob,

Nice looking pier. Did you just do this? Is there a thread on it someplace? I'd love to hear some details on it, and what else you have planned for it. Or will there be a railing, bench or walkway? What did you use for the decking and skirting? I can't tell if it's freshly painted, or you used a composite of some kind.

Thanks,
Eddie


Thanks for the compliments. I had the dock put in right after the pond renovation was done and well before it filled up - almost 2 years ago. I don't think I posted that project here but did post some pictures of it somewhere along the way. I thought about building it myself but quickly decided against it since my time is limited and I don't live at the pond site yet. I wound up hiring an Amish deck builder who had it done in 1 day. The decking and skirting is all ProCell (I didn't want to deal with maintenance) and the rest is pressure treated. I don't plan on adding any railings on it but am seriously considering adding a rectangular gazebo at the end of the walkway. I may try to tackle that myself.
Posted By: BillB Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/03/09 10:58 PM
There is little on this forum that I am actually qualified to comment on, but because I am a lawyer and thus consider myself qualified on all things legal \:\) , I will venture my two cents worth. Just remember free legal advice is worth what you pay for it so here goes:

The question posed is an interesting one and implicates a lot of issues. (see this is what they teach you in law school--spot issues--charge by the hour to answer them.) The problem with a definitive answer (like you were going to get a definitive answer from a lawyer) is that the law with regard to trespass, landowners rights and liability are all creatures of state law and thus you have 50 potential answers and hundreds of nuances. The laws of trespass vary from state to state, although all states prohibit unauthorized entry onto private property in some form or the other. Whether it is criminal trespass or civil trespass will vary by the laws and the particular facts. But this question really goes to responsibility of the land owner for injuries to someone who is on their land.

To answer this question you have to determine the status of the person injured. Were they a trespasser, an invited guest, a family member, a child, a government employee or a repair person. The status of the person generally governs the degree of care the land owner owes to the injured persons. Trespassers, as they should be, are generally owed the least degree of care, and in most states, a trespasser cannot recover damages unless the land owner was grossly negligent or injured the person intentionally. (Although here in Texas you can use deadly force against a trespasser under certain circumstances). In any event, the status of the person, and the standard of care owed, will vary based on state statutes and the interpretation of those statutes by the courts of that state. Many states have enacted laws to protect land owners from suits and this is especially so if it is recreational land open or semi-open to the public. These are generally called Recreational Land Use Laws and there is one in all 50 states.

One other issue needs to be mentioned and that is the concept of "attractive nuisance." This generally applies to conditions on the land that entice people to go on the land and result in injuries. A pond is a good example of an attractive nuisance. Generally this concept is limited to injuries to children or where few if any steps were taken to keep the public out and protect against the harm. Again, there is no simple answer here. Which leads to the question of whether you increase your chances of liability by putting safety features, such as a life ring around your pond.

My thought would be no. Whether a person is an invited guest or a trespasser, there is always a risk that someone will fall in a pond. Its an obvious risk that anyone would recognize. Putting a life ring at the pond minimizes this known risk. Anything you do on your property to minimize know risks of injury will ultimately inure to your benefit. The highest standard typically applicable to a land owner is a negligence standard meaning simply that the land owner acted as a reasonably prudent land owner would under the same or similar circumstances. Was it reasonable to place a life preserver at a point where someone could fall in the water? Probably so. Some will argue that placing the life preserver at the pond means the land owner knows that there is a risk of people falling into his pond and drowning. This would be used to prove that the land owner was aware of the risk. Well duh! A land owner would never win on this point anyway.

Here is how the questioning would go:

Wiley Lawyer: Did you realize that a pond was on your property.
Pondmeister: Why yes, I am a subscriber to Pond Boss Magazine since it was black and white.
Wiley Lawyer: Is there water in your pond?
Pondmeister: Of course. A soothing pea green nutrient rich water with a Sechi disk reading of 3 feet on average.
Wiley Lawyer: Do you know that people can drown in water.
Pondmeister: Of course. I am a former Boy Scout you know.
Wiley Lawyer: So you knew people could drown in your pond.
Pondmeister: Yes, but…
Wiley Lawyer: But even though you knew people were at risk of drowning in your pond, you failed to take any precautions?
Pondmeister: I posted a sign that said no swimming.
Wiley Lawyer: How was the sign suppose to save my client Bubba when he fell into your dangerous pond? Did it teach him how to swim?
Pondmeister: Well no.
Wiley Lawyer: How much would a life ring have cost?
Pondmeister: Oh about $30 bucks.
Wiley Lawyer: So can you look at Ms. Bubba and Bubba Jr. and Bubba III and Bubba Bubba and tell them that their husband and daddy’s life was not worth $30?
Pondmeister: Well no that is not what I meant …..

You get the picture. So the fact that you put up a life ring will not result in more liability that you already would be facing. And while we are at it, why put the sign up to say no swimming if you did not expect people to come upon your pond and want to swim?
(It is more likely that some lawyer will argue that all us readers of the Pond Boss forum are now on notice that putting a life ring at your pond is a good idea to prevent injuries and failure to do so would be negligent. This is why people hate lawyers .).

As with most things in life, a little common sense goes a long way. My experience with juries is that even though there may be one or two outliers on there, the reason we have 12 jurors is the collective common sense of them all usually get to the right result. (There is also an article on-line by a couple of Texas A&M professors that studied the issue of land owner liability and determined that the issue is way over blown considering the number of land owners in the United States compared to the number of injuries and claims against land owners. see Rural landowner liability for recreational injuries: Myths, perceptions, and realities B.A. Wright, R.A. Kaiser, and S. Nicholls).

So the best way to protect your assets against claims from those hurt on your property are pretty straight forward:

1. Clearly post your land in accordance with your state’s law to insure that trespassers are treated as trespassers. Generally the alleged trespasser has to have notice of the fact he or she is on private property. Most state laws will presume notice if a certain number of signs are put up at specified spacing.
2. Fence your land. Put up gates to entry points and lock them when you are away. You want to take reasonable steps to minimize entry onto your land when you are not there.
3. To the extent reasonable, remove or minimize known hazards. You don’t want you, your family or your friends injured either, do you?
4. Warn against really dangerous possibly unknown hazards. If the road entering your property abruptly plunges into a 500 foot canyon, a little heads up is probably called for. Do you need to post speed limit signs on your dirt road? Of course not. If the bridge across your creek is about to fall in, fix it or post a sign telling people not to drive four wheelers over it. On the steps up to your cabin, do you need to post a sign that says Be careful. You could fall and hurt yourself?” No. Common sense. Now I know that the readers of this forum will come up with a thousand hypotheticals that will push the envelope give me tired head. Resist the urge.
5. Don’t buy one of those cute signs that says “Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.” We had a tragic incident down here in Texas where a child was shot by a land owner who though he was trespassing. The land owner had one of these signs. The DA will feature the sign prominently at his criminal trial.
6. Buy liability insurance. This is what insurance is for—this is why you have a homeowners policy and an automobile policy. The liability portions of these policies protect you from LIABILITY. I have coverage on my 65 acres for about $300 per year for up to a $1M through a forest landowner’s association.

Now for the disclaimers: The opinions expressed in this post are my personal opinions and do not reflect the opinions of my firm or my partners who would be terrified to know I am dispensing my views on the internet, especially as to legal matters. And while we are at it, this post is not intended as legal advice and for such you should certainly support your local lawyers by seeking competent legal advice from a qualified professional—not from some yahoo on the internet. I am a Texas lawyer and what I know, if anything is based on my practice in Texas and I have not got much of a clue about the law in other states. I am not even sure I get Texas law right. Finally, for all you folks in Texas, DO NOT SHOOT ANY TRESPASSERS ON YOUR LAND BASED ON WHAT YOU READ IN THIS POST. Surely you are smarter than that.
Posted By: Rainman Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/03/09 11:11 PM
Momma. get m' gun!
Posted By: cliffbrook Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/03/09 11:12 PM
i was looking for the thread and bumped to top, thankyou bill b, rainman, i am peeing in your pond first

what about all the ponds in town now, commercial and suburban, unfenced, no signs, no fences, come on, the bigwigs in town are all about ponds, they dont appear to be afraid of liability, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of examples of this

if we are going to be paranoid, then put pond land in corporation, thats probly what the bigwigs in town are doing

and my pond is very near road neighbors, no fence, no sign, so i am more vulnerable than most

shooting target practice is not shooting trespassers, and i have never done that, only point it out to people that ask to come by
Posted By: TheMoMule Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/04/09 02:52 AM
I'm weighing in on BillB's side on this. The risk of the normal rural pond owner (absentee or otherwise) being successfully sued by an injured trespasser is very, very small. IMO (as another lawyer), you have a far better chance of being sued by the people you actually invite on the property--particularly people doing work or social guests. The argument is that tf you invite the kids to swim in the pool, maybe you should disclose "hazards" such as the very steep bank you designed to discourage algae and herons. . . .

For most people, I wouldn't worry about it. For those very worried about these issues (perhaps because of high personal net worth or a larger than normal perceived risk), a relatively inexpensive option in many states is to set up an LLC to own the land containing the pond. This provides some degree of additional protection.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/04/09 03:36 AM
MoMule and BillB;

Great advice on the liability policy and also LLC formation. Thank you for providing us with your professional take on the situation. I am an absentee land owner, but only 10 minute drive away, but I am concerned because my land is only 5 min from a 250,000 population center...there will likely be trespassers.

I am considering opening an LLC as it can be set up for a few hundred dollars - and you can also [if you have a creative acct like mine] write off some expenses of the land thru said LLC. I am going to be raising fish, and will be writing off the cost of my electricity, pellets, subsequent stockings, the rock I placed for structure, dock, nets, aeration system, gates, more rock, etc.

Thanks again for the advice...I found it very helpful.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/04/09 06:49 AM
Is it just me or does the fact that a trespasser can even sue to begin with, completely disturb the heck out of you?
Posted By: Brettski Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/04/09 10:34 AM
I looked into an LLC when we first purchased our parcel. The legal requirements to meet the criteria required to operate under an LLC were no simple task. I cannot remember the specific details, but I recall one of the larger stumbling blocks was the need to include other partners as legal owners of the parcel. There were other points that made it virtually impossible for a husband/wife team to operate as an LLC. Was I given bad info...?
Posted By: TOM G Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/04/09 12:11 PM
I got a 55 gallon drum of Texas whupa## next to my pond that says "tresspassers,help yourself",is THAT O.K.?
Posted By: esshup Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/04/09 12:16 PM
CJ:

It's not only you.
Posted By: BillB Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/04/09 01:03 PM
Most of my wealthy clients have their ranches/land in a separate legal entity whether it be a LLC or a corporation. I have one client who has his house in town in a separate LLC! My understanding that they do it for liability, tax and estate planning purposes. I am not an expert on formation of LLC's but I do know you have to have a managing member (like a general partner of a partnership)and members. Most of the structures I have seen have a Managing Member (usually another LLC) who owns 1% of the LLC and them the members who own 99%. (Another reason people hate lawyers is that they think up structures like this. so this is maybe why you were told there needs to be two parties. A LLC looks more like a limited partnership than a corporation. Usually the LLC ownership rolls up to a family trust. I have found that the wealthier my clients are the less they own in their own name.

I am just a salaryman breaking rocks and selling hours so I don't know a lot about these structures. I do know that they will not protect the owners if the structure is not respected as a separate entity--a concept called piercing the corporate veil and alter ego--but that is a new issue with about five or six issues and sub-issues. (and on it goes).

It is usually cheaper for us mortals to protect ourselves with insurance rather than fancy legal structures where you have to pay your lawyer to set it up. This is true unless your tax accountant can show you some tax advantages to offset the cost of creating and maintaining the structure.
Posted By: Bing Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/04/09 01:49 PM
Brettski: My business in Illinois is an LLC and I am the sole (only) member. To me the biggest drawback to a LLC in this state is the $400.00 annual license. It cost less than that in legal fees to set it up. IMHO even if your land is in a LLC your still need that $1M or more in liabiilty insurance. Plus, if an accident occurs the injured could still sue the LLC and own all of it's assets (Which is one of the things we are trying to protect).

Bing
Posted By: Brettski Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/04/09 02:29 PM
Thanks Bing.
Actually, the real reason I wanted to consider the LLC was to provide a way to write off the improvements.
Yep, I carry a PLUP, too.
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/04/09 03:06 PM
BillB, great post.

Many folks hold real estate, other than their primary residence, in a Limited Liability Company (LLC). A "single member" LLC can be set up with only one member (husband and wife can be considered a single member). This entity can be "disregarded" for tax purposes and therefore will not be required to file a Federal tax return. In many states the Single Member LLC will have to file a state tax return (typically a one or two page long return that indicates that all transactions will be reported on an individual tax return and then names the individual) and pay an annual tax of some amount to the state. The purpose of this structure is to (as the name implies) limited potential liability. There have been instances in which the LLC vail has been nullified and the owners were held liable. An LLC owner can be held personally liable if he or she: personally and directly injures someone; personally guarantees a bank loan or a business debt on which the LLC defaults (lenders will require a personal guarantee for LLC's and usually closely held corporations); intentionally does something fraudulent, illegal, or reckless that causes harm to the company or to someone else; or treats the LLC as an extension of his or her personal affairs, rather than as a separate legal entity.

Remember an LLC is not an invincible legal shield. It is a tool that can be used along side a good liability insurance policy to help minimize the risk.

Oh and as an also and besides, NEVER hold real estate in a "C" corporation unless you either (1)love double taxation or (2) never intend to distribute the proceeds out of the C corp.

Once again, I'm not an attorney, please consult with your attorney, your CPA, the mailman, and the guys down at the local Pub regarding these matters.

Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/04/09 03:21 PM
Lastly, (sheesh will this guy ever shut up), merely creating an LLC does not make personal items tax deductible. An LLC is a business entity and in order to deduct business expenses you must have a bona fide business. One in which you materially participate (devote several hundred hours per year to), one that has a profit motive (it doesn't necessarily need to make a profit in the first few years but you better be able to demonstrate that you have knowledge about the industry and that you are taking action to make the business profitable) and one that is not merely an extension of your personal finances. If you fail to meet one or more of these criteria and you have deducted "business losses" against other income then it is likely that you will not fare well during a tax audit.
Posted By: Brettski Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/04/09 03:32 PM
Thanks to all for the valuable input.
JHAP...your last post parallels the conversation that I had with our accountant, just before we dismissed the LLC idea.
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/04/09 03:49 PM
That's because most accountants talk and oddly enough dress similarly.
Posted By: TOM G Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/04/09 05:41 PM
Brettski,does your accountant wear a gilly suit to work too? Sorry,I couldnt resist.
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/04/09 08:14 PM
Don't be ridiculous Tom, I only wear my ghillie suit and my neoprene cod piece on my days off. I mean come on, can you imagine me wearing my neoprene cod piece to work? That would be nuts!
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/04/09 10:45 PM
I thought that was a pencil caddy. \:o
Posted By: TheMoMule Re: Life saving equipment; legal trap? - 06/05/09 01:39 AM
As indicated above, most states allow a single-owner LLC. Many states (e.g., Missouri) don't have any meaningful annual expense of having one. There can be tax benefits, but usually are not any meaningful ones. The added liability protection is usually the main advantage.
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