So I know I've read lots of posts about pumps for various applications from transferring water from one pond to another, from streams to ponds, for draining ponds, etc. I cannot get the search function on the site to work narrowly enough to make the results useful and don't know anything about the Google search angle that I saw referenced in the "Changes Coming" thread, but it sounds like it would be a very useful tool to know more about.

Anyway, my question is this: we are going to be planting a larger garden at our farm this spring and do not yet have a water source there other than the ponds. By late summer, we should have water through the local PSD, but until then, we don't have a well or any other source. I'd like to use pond water for our garden and know I'll need a pump. What sort of pump am I looking for and what means of running it should I be aware of? We have power available, but just haven't set up an account yet and will have some time and expense in getting it run from the main road to our property, none of which will happen prior to our need for water for the garden.

So, what sort of solution am I looking at for this? I mean aside from filling a bucket and making a lot of trips back and forth!

Thanks!

Couple of questions for ya.
How far is the pond from the garden (horizontally), and how far much higher is the garden than the water level in the pond? (vertically)

Do you have a generator?

Do you have something that can transport a 275 gallon tote full with water in it?

Thanks for the questions, esshup. Not yet sure how far away from the pond the garden will be, but likely not more than 150 feet or so. The elevation change between pond surface and garden surface won't exceed 5 feet in all likelihood - the pond is in a fairly flat area and the garden will be located in that same general area.

I do have a generator and I do have a midsize-ish ATV that would probably pull a 275 gallon tote without too much difficulty. Hadn't even thought about that idea, but could just get one of those, and aren't they self-powered with gas?

Thanks - look forward to your further input.

The tote that I was referring to looks like this.

You could get an electric dewatering pump that'll run off the generator and hook a garden hose to it, although @ 150' there will be considerable water flow loss due to friction. Or, you could go a step bigger and get a 1/2 hp electric water pump. Hook it up to 2" PVC (buried or laying on top of the ground) and run that to the garden, tapping off of it with a hose.

Or, use the dewatering pump to fill up the tote and wheel it to the garden. They normally have a 2" butterfly valve built into the tanks. If you go that route, make sure that the tanks can be cleaned out good enough for use on stuff that you're going to eat. 275G of water = roughly 2291# tho.....

Dad waters his property at the lake with a 1 hp pump (220v) that sucks lake water. We put in a 2" trunk line and ran 1" branches off of that, stepping down to 3/4 at the sprinkler head. He can run 11 impulse sprinklers at once without any apparent loss of flow.

For interim use, until you get power in place, a DC bilge pump hooked to th ATV might suffice for flood irrigation. These things are cheap, less than 20 bucks and quite handy.

Thanks, esshup and tejasrojas, for your thoughts. I've seen those totes around but never knew what they were used for. Now I guess I know at least one use!

I've seen listings for "submersible well pumps" and "deep well jet pumps" in our local "Bulletin Board" sale rag. Is that what I'm looking for, or is it something totally different? If something else, where would I find one and what sort of specifics would I be looking for (aside from perhaps a 1hp pump)?

As far as a "trunk" line, how would that be set up and what sort of attachments would be needed to hook up the pump to it? Interesting ideas! Thanks!

Todd:

We gotta reverse engineer it. How much water are you looking at moving? (look at the sprinkler sizes and GPH ratings for a start)

A trunk like is just a larger diameter pipe/hose that comes out of the pump, and you tap off of that (branch off of it) for the different outlets (sprinklers or hose bibs).

A deep well or deep well jet pump is not the ideal pump for your application. Depending on the amount of water that you need, a bilge pump, submersible pump, a sprinkler pump or a shallow well pump might fit your needs, depending on the amount of water that you need to move.

Honestly, esshup, I don't know what volume of water I'll be using, but enough to water a garden contained inside what I am projecting to be a 25 x 50 enclosure. Not all of that space will used this first year as we're just going to work on getting it started with a handful of "crops" and see how the first season goes. I guess it won't be a bunch, but I have no idea on how to quantify it right now.

I am not planning to construct any sort of sprinkler system for now, intending to just be able to use a hose, but a sprinkler system is a pretty awesome idea to chew on once we get this project up and running.

Your point about the well pumps is understood - I was just curious if that was what I was after. I did some searching online earlier and found some pumps like these from Harbor Freight. Submersible (there are a number of different ones on the site) or Gas Powered (not sure I want to spend that much, but just looking for comparison points) Any opinions on these? Thinking higher horsepower is better (in typical guy thinking!), and curious as to the preference of a submersible versus a gas-powered. Any thoughts?

And thanks a bunch for working through this with me!

If you've got electric available, then I'd go with the cheaper submersible. I'd also put it inside a 5 gallon bucket, tying it inside and put some sort of a screen on top of the bucket so it won't suck any junk thru the pump. While it won't hurt the pump, you'll soon tire of cleaning out the sprinkler head. Been there, done that (often). Sink the pump so the top of the bucket is under water by at least a foot, maybe more, keeping the bucket upright so it doesn't suck junk from the bottom of the pond.

If you went with the gasoline powered one, I think you might have to rig up a bypass valve to bypass most of the water back to the pond. For that area, you wouldn't be using anywhere close to 100 gpm!

25 x 50, you probably could get by with 2 fan type ocillating head sprinklers, or a couple of rainbird type impact sprinkler heads.

Thanks, esshup. Those are some good thoughts. While I don't have power there right now, it's just a matter of time to get it brought in and I have a generator for the interim. A submersible seems to make the most sense and I really like your suggestion of putting it in a bucket to minimize crud getting into it. I think given the fact that I'll just be using a hose to water for now, this simple setup makes the most sense. I like the idea of using a sprinkler, too, though, and may try that just for fun. Did the submersibles that I linked to fit the general bill in terms of what I should be looking for, or is another sort of pump more appropriate?

Thanks a ton for working through this with me!

The submersibles might work. It'd be nice to get psi ratings on them. All the flow in the world doesn't work if you don't have some pressure behind it.

I hauled water last year. I used 4 55 gallon drums on a pallet. Lifted them in the air and gravity fed out the water. It served it's purpose but got old in a while.

This year I am driving in a shallow well (about 20 feet deep) and installing an electric pump. I will be running the pump from a generator as it will be a couple good years before electric gets back that far. Cost will total about 500.00. A local rental company rent's shallow well drivers for 60.00/day.

Sure beats hauling water, and I can run sprinklers.

The next thing I have to figure out is how to shut the system down after x amount of time in case I have to leave. I suppose I could rig up a relay circuit with timer and ac motor contactor and tie it into the on/off switch on the generator.


Todd, Is a shallow well an option in your case?

Another pump option could be a booster pump from your pond with a pre-filter. A 1/2 hp booster could pump 150 feet, maybe 7gpm but would probably blow your budget. Could probably pick one up on ebay at a reasonable cost.

Just a thought.

Have you considered getting an above-ground water tank and filling it up using a pump? It seems to me that dragging a pump, hose, and generator out there all the time to water would be kind of a PITA, you could install an above-ground tank, put a hose on it, and just bring the pump out to refill it once a month or so.

Keep in mind that you might not always be the one around to water. It's going to be a whole lot easier for your mother-in-law or uncle to figure out a spigot on the side of a tank than a pump and generator.

You would also be able to use relatively inexpensive water timers with a tank, for automatic watering or to have the system automatically shut off after you leave. Once you know what you want to grow, you could install drop irrigation and really stretch the water in the tank longer.

Great suggestion, txelen. Thanks. We actually just completed a nice building at the farm, so there wouldn't be lots of dragging back and forth with equipment, but there'd certainly be moving it to the pond each time. That gives me more to think about as the project develops. Is the sort of tank you're talking about just a gravity feed setup for watering, or are you thinking about something that has a pump of its own to push the water through a hose?

Could just keep it simple:

http://honda.northerntool.com/water-pumps/honda-lightweight-1-water-pump.htm

Which very much has its merits. That's what I was thinking initially so I could take my time and really gain an understanding of what we'll need and if a more involved solution is actually even necessary down the road. I've always been a fan of just running a hose, but doing so from a pond is a new thing for me.

I am driving in a Well this spring. I do not want to haul water, no tanks, no external pumps, no gravity feed etc...

But I will probably have to run a generator, at least this year. And setting up a sequential shut down is not really a big thing with me. I could also monitor water flow and even get more complex, but that is not necessary.

Thanks.

JKB, tell me more about this well you are driving in. How can you be assured you'll hit water? How does the well work? Can you just located it where it's most convenient or do you have to do some ground water testing? Some details if you don't mind. I'd like to learn more about it. Thanks!

The well is a shallow well, less than 25 feet deep. The point will be driven into the ground water table, so if you know your water table you can pretty much hit water. The point I purchased is a 4 foot stainless for use in very coarse sand and gravel. So you should know what you are driving the point into.

(Finding a really good (productive)location is another subject that requires the use of a pair of stainless steel rods and the tip section of a 6 ft lightweight fishing rod, which is controversial)

It also helps to know someone who has a bit of experience. My BIL has put in several shallow wells around here. All produce good with 3 foot points. The point I have is good for 40 gpm or so, but that depends on the recharge rate. 60 gpm and production depends on the permeability of the soils.

This link explains things better than I can:
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/naturalresources/DD0951.html

Depending on your soil. You could drive a 20 ft shallow well in less than 2 hours if you rent a well driver. Basically a jack hammer with a special end tool.

Once the well is in and operational. I will build a small pump house with room for the generator, batteries and charger for the LED lighting. I like to sit out by the garden.

EDIT:I just asked my BIL and he used a small homelite gas pump on one of his shallow wells. He said it worked fine, but had to prime that unit as he did not install a foot valve. I would not mind using a gas pump, but I would like to see what the well produced first.

Thanks, JKB. I'll check out that link and see what I can learn. At this point, I know very little about the water table at our farm, but all of the 4 neighbors have wells as their primary water sources, so I know there's water there. We're getting city water by late summer as the local PSD is running a line from the main road up the lane into our subdivision, so I'll be able to tap into it, but I'd love to find an alternative to paying for any water for things like the garden. And, since we aren't building out at the farm for probably a few years still, I don't want to get into a whole bunch of site development with utilities until we have settled on where stuff needs to run to accommodate our house and all the landscaping, etc.

Thanks again for the info. I may get in touch with you about it if I have more questions.

Todd,

I'll put together a drawing of what I am planning in the next couple days.

I have to have a couple questions answered myself, mainly on freeze protection. It's going to be a couple years until I get electricity that far back. (permit and zoning process )

Pretty much everyone around here has a back up shallow well. The main wells around here average in the 190 foot range. For drinking water consideration, the minimum depth has to be at least 90 feet.

It makes no sense to risk your main well to water a garden or livestock that would be 500-600 feet from the source, nor purchase water from the utilities.

Much easier to run underground electric.

I saw a setup that was a slightly modified 3 point hitch sub-soiler, which would be quite a bit cheaper to purchase than rent a trencher. TSC sells a sub-soiler for about 150.00 and for another 10 bucks you could buy the pipe and elbow to make it work. And I need a sub-soiler anyway.

As you are on a farm, you might want to consider the purchase of a tractor. Some of my fondest memories have been at the controls of my diesel equipment. I just wish I could get my Cat forklift that far back, it would drive that shallow well, straight down in no time.

A tractor is definitely in our future, though for now I'm settling with a Cub Cadet garden tractor since all I need to do right now is mow grass. We won't have any livestock, but there's always a landscaping need here or there! Of our 30 acres, probably only about 10 would need to be mowed, and that's even pushing it a little. The rest is woods and water. Right now we've got a guy who cuts the hay for his livestock and we get a tax exemption for agricultural use since the value of the hay is at least $1000 annually. Once I get a bigger tractor, I'll probably just keep it all mowed myself. I'm definitely looking forward to making some diesel memories!

I have a Cub Cadet LT1050. The starter went nuts so that was replaced under the 3 year warranty. I also replaced all of the tires with 4 ply as my previous property had a bunch of thorns, and 2 ply were no match for the sticking things.

Fix-a-Flat don't work on two ply specially if the exhaust is warming the tire up. Next thing you know as the tire revolves, all this stuff is spurting everywhere.

Overall an excellent purchase. And it mows grass and tall weeds quite well. I use to do both sides of the road for about 1/8 mile and around mailboxes, my lawn and three neighbor lawns, all in short order. Plus the built in can holder...

When you get to the point of desiring to experience the sweet smell of diesel, make sure you post it here. I can chime in with my experiences. Once you go diesel, as they say...

Mine's a GT1554 with the 54" mower deck. Not sure about the tires, but that's a great point. I got it late in the season last year so I only mowed the more grassy areas, but I have some hills I'd like to mow at least a little way up and there is some woody-stemmed brush on it, though not too many thorns. That's a great point for me to keep in mind, though. It was a great purchase and does a great job on the roughly 3 or so acres I'll be trying to keep mowed regularly. Definitely look forward to input on a diesel real tractor one of these days. If you've never been there, the website tractorbynet is a massive source of info on tractors. I had been toying around with the idea of buying a bigger - 50 hp range - tractor shortly after we bough the property, but decided not to get into such a big expense right away. I'm glad we didn't because I really don't think that's a realistic need for what we'll be doing, though I am also a big advocate of buying more than you ever think you'll need on pretty much anything I buy because there will be that time you wish you had more if you went smaller! Just a guy trait, I guess, but if you can have your equipment/stuff do less work than it's capable of, i.e. work at 75% capacity as opposed to pushing the functional limits all the time, I think you get better longevity from it. At least that's my theory!

I hear ya Todd.

I have been on tractor-by-net as a registered member, and really good info is quite sparse. They keep sending me email's, but I can't remember my login and password. They have too many fights between Red and Green. Just don't log onto AgWeb, ya know that rural Agricultural program on Sunday mornings at 5:00am. These guys are brutal. BTW, expect Beef and Pork prices to go a bit nuts this year.

Good tools and equipment make light work out of rather time consuming tasks, and have the benefit of saving time, especially if you have to work and bill on time basis to earn a living.

If it is a time saver at all, and fit's in to your plans, even though it cost's a chunk up front. It most likely will be a benefit.

Choose your tools wisely, and if they do not contribute to the Net Gain Overall...

I like to make anything I purchase pay for itself -vs- other options. But you have to calculate what the payback would be -vs- big boy toys. Both have their merits, but one will not be a sink hole.

Overall, I am satisfied how things are going, It just takes time and patience

Just my opinion.

Todd,

When you start getting serious about buying a tractor and implements, I'll be glad to spend some time with you. About a dozen years ago I converted over from playing with and restoring older American gasoline tractors to playing with small-to-medium sized Japanese diesels. Lots of very good ones out there.

Ken

Thanks, Ken. It's definitely intimidating when you realize how many tractor choices there really are. I've looked at a handful live and more than I can imagine online. Heck, there are so many you can't even just say Red, Blue, Green, or Orange without hitting at least 3 major brands with each color!

I bought a used tractor last May (New Holland TN65), about 8 months into owning our property. I can attest to the guy thing as i go around looking for things to use the tractor. I definitely recommend going with a 40-50 hp if you have 30 acres, and while recommending, i recommend 4wd. It is hard to describe all the reasons ---obviously it doesn't get stuck as easily, but the confidence you will have due to the increased surefooted-ness is amazing. Also if you get a front end loader, and i recommend that too, 4wd is almost a must, since the front end weight takes traction from the rear wheels. A FEL does the obvious, but it is a great mobile crane that transports heavy things as well. A tractor is another thing that, on the farm, is as handy as a pocket on a shirt.

The good thing is, is that there are very few bad brands these days. Except for a very few specific brands, and a few specific series within a few other major brands, even the worst tractors of the last 15-20 years have excellent reputations.

I'd enjoy a Saturday of going tire kicking on tractors.

Cat:

I know that the Kubota B7500 doesn't have a float setting for the rear 3-point. If there isn't an easy way (relatively speaking of course) to adapt the valve system to make a float setting, what's the next larger size Kubota that has a float setting on the 3-point? That's the biggest drawback that I can see to the B7500. It's hard to use a box scraper without the float setting.

Makes a lot of sense, JKB. I don't have any practical way of making a big tractor pay for itself that I can think of right offhand, but it won't stop me from eventually getting one!

With our hills, 4WD is mandatory. I've got a couple of hills that I could mow pretty effectively with a good bush hog and the willingness to back up the things for every pass. My neighbor does that on his 30 horse Kubota and, while it takes a little bit of time, he mows every bit of his property. It would be impossible without 4WD.

Plus, I'm not sure there's a good reason to own a tractor if you don't have a FEL!

I'll take you up on that offer, my friend!

Maybe someone else can chime in on this, but I'm not aware of any 3-point hitches with a "float" position. To have a true "float" position, the hitch would need to have downward pressure.

Some of the larger tractors do have a "draft" position, which is mostly used for plowing fields. This allows the implement to raise and lower based on the pull. For Kubota, I think you need to get up to at least the L4400 and the M-Series before that is even offered.

It does take a fair amount of practice to use a box scraper. I know of several people who have put hydraulic top links on their tractors. This allows you to manually tilt the box scraper, from the seat, as you are grading. To do so, you would need to add a "power beyond" option and controls to your hydraulic system. It is not difficult. Your Kubota dealer should be able to assist you with the parts.

The B7500 is a pretty good little tractor. If you don't need to go bigger, it will save you a lot of money, fuel, and the eventual service of a much bigger machine.

Todd -- Those are two features that will give you most of what you want. You are well on your way to having a good workable tractor for the Pondstead. Two other indispensable features are a "quick hitch" for the 3-point hitch, and a tooth bar for the front end loader. Both are relatively inexpensive, but are well worth whatever you pay for them.
Ken

Plenty to learn about and looking forward to all of it!

Thanks for the explanation. The FEL on the tractor has a float position, some downward pressure, but not much and it will move up and down depending on the upward pressure put on it by the terrain when dragging the bucket backwards. The 3 point controls seem like they move pretty quick and it's hard to fine tune on the fly once the box starts to dig in, and that's without the teeth on it.

The float on the FEL is just that. No hyd. force in either direction so the FEL can float. My Kubota and Bobcat both have that feature. The 3 point's, in most cases, are available with a quarter inching valve that accurately controls the 3 point hitch. I opted out of that because it was a pile of money, and I couldn't sleep the night before it was delivered. I thought they took too long putting on and loading the R4 tires, and it was the next day

Had this one been available at the time, I would have worked it out:


I still have to slow down while passing a tractor or equipment lot because I can't keep my eyes on the road.

This is what happened to mine.

Shame on me for not washing it off, but it cost 60.00 in Kubota Hyd. Fluid to even get it on the trailer. And that was only two gallons







The housing crack was due to an internal bearing that split in half. This bearing was in the center of the bull gear at the center of the rear end assembly. It split through the top crown on the gothic arch, internally, on the outer race. Which caused the outer race to separate and thus, the axle would wobble.

I saw all the parts, and that bearing was split for a long time, and I just bought this Brand NEW.

Fortunately, It was still under warranty, otherwise it would cost a small fortune to fix. They ended up replacing everything internally except the left axle, plus replacing the two housings on the right. WHEW!!!

It was really smooth driving after the fix

FEL, 4 WD, and farm tires are important.

Also make sure to have the dealer fill the rear tires with the antfreeze stuff. That will keep you from getting all wadded up under the thing if you flip it over. That's spooky stuff and you have to learn how not to do that.

Want to feel really dumb? Try using a FEL for the first time. Heck, try using it for the first year. Then, one day, you get the feel for it.

Todd, I see no way to cost justify a fully rigged tractor. I have owned an old Ford 8N for about 20 years. It did a lot of the things I wanted to do but I kept thinking I need a FEL. So about 5 or 6 years ago I bought a 39 HP John Deere with 4wd and Fel. I only use either of them about 10 times a year but have absolutely no regret. I don't have 300 hrs yet on the JD but it is indispensable to me for things like hauling a deer to the house, hoisting a deer to be gutted, letting my Wife lift me up to trim trees, planting wheat for wildlife, etc. I probably have about $30,000 invested in just the tractor and another couple of thousand in implements and a 16 ft trailer. No way it can be cost justified unless you factor in Chiropractic expenses and back pain.

BTW, don't ever try to cost justify owning rural property with a pond or 2. If I didn't own my very own deer lease and fishing holes, I could take a safari to Africa every year and hire a fishing guide every month.

Thanks for those thoughts, Dave. I agree completely with your list of necessities for a tractor. Our church actually bought a nice little Kubota BX2660 with a FEL and loaded tires. It's a 25 HP compact tractor that we use to mow a 4 acre property we own and I am the one who most frequently runs it. I've played around a little with the FEL, and you are right that it can be a very awkward experience!

You make a great point that the cost of a tractor is something I may well never be able to fully justify, but that's something I'll be willing to live with when the time comes for all the great reasons you stated. I think the convenience and efficiency factors that you talk about are the biggest reason to own one, much like owning your own land and ponds. Plus, I look at the chance to raise my kids to know what a tractor is and, as they get old enough, to know how to operate one. That's a pretty cool thing that seemingly fewer and fewer kids these days get to learn. Heck, I wish I had that opportunity when I was younger.

Anyway, thanks again for your input.

Yeah, these are time savers, and you have to get the feel of it to be productive. Not too worried about rolling it as it is quite sure footed, especially with the loaded tires.

Texas might need AG tires (only been there once) But, the R4's have a definite bite when needed, plus you can drive on a lawn without ripping it to shreds. (unless you are on the Bobcat, then there is no hope to preserve your lawn)

Expect, as Dave said, about 30K for something not too citiish. Plus implements, trailer, and something that would haul it. My trailer is a 14,000gvw PJ, I bought it two years old for 2800.00. Something to haul it might pull fewer bucks if it was used.

I am just waiting for the Stork to Bless Me with a Komatsu D21 or something that I could legally haul under a total of 26,000 GVW.

A little dozer would be really cool!

EVERYBODY needs ag tires.

If your lawn is too pristine for ag tires, baby it with a baby tractor. Don't keep a front end loader in diapers by denying it ag tires.

Funny, I got AG tires on my Cub Cadet lawn tractor. It's a bumpier ride, but gets good traction.

I blew it when I got the JD. I bought into the idea that turf tires wouldn't tear up as much stuff. However, when you load them with liquid, they make some pretty impressive ruts.

That's an interesting idea, JKB. I might have to try that with my Cub when it comes time to replace tires. Are the AG tires readily available on the market for the Cub?

They should be.

I got mine from an ebay tire store out of Salfordville, PA.(best price I could find and almost half the price from the local Cub dealer) USA made tires and 4 ply rating. Not like the 2 ply china models that come with Cub Cadet.

Like I said, it is a bit bumpier, but gets really good traction especially in sand and snow.

To quote a local welding supply salesman, "Now that's a Manly Man's Tractor".

I've got a set of AG tires for my JD 345 garden tractor as well. I bought a 2nd set of rims and swap tires when needed. I have a rear mounted hydraulic rototiller, mowing deck and front mounted snow thrower for it. Suitcase weights, and the cement rear wheel "insert" weights as well. The AG tires are on the JD for most of the year. They are a necessity when using the rototiller. I'll swap them out for the winter and run the turf tires and chains. I've had better traction in the snow and ice with the turf tires and chains vs. the AG tires and chains.

I picked up the rims on e-bay, and the tires from a local tire store that handles farm equipment tires.

Cool Esshup,

I have had the absolute opposite results with AG tires and snow, in general. Although chains are a necessity with a snow plow when things start to freeze.

I got chains for my fork truck (same size drive tires as my 2500). If the ground is frozen, that thing will really push some snow, but that is a different story for another day. Not a sight you see every day

JKB:

I hear ya on the forklift snowplow. We built a plow that had fork pockets. Instead of chains (company said wait for maintenance to come around and plow us out - after a day we had to take matters into our own hands) we used 5/16" lag screws as studs. The tires were durn near bald anyway. It worked, and we just backed them out after we were done.

The AG tires work fine in snow, it's the ice under the snow that was giving me problems. Once they spun without the chains, it was all over.

I have made some pretty big rut's myself, not anticipating that!
Ya added a lot of weight to it. I believe my rear tires are loaded to 450 lbs each, and it defiantly don't float, or bounce!

Weird thing is. If you hit the road at WOT, you can't tell that the tires are filled. I would expect some sloshing or Inertial things to happen, but nothing! Kick them, they are full. I even cracked the valve stem on one to double check, Yep, there is liquid in there.

I chose the R4's over the AG tires because I was driving on concrete a bunch early on. And the R4's don't wear out as fast in that situation. They do load up a bit in sand pretty quick if you are moving or pushing a load, but I call that a failsafe not to overload and wreck something.