This spring,I ended up with an explosion of curly leaf pondweed. I don't know if it was the mild winter, dry then wet spring, or what have you that caused my pond weeds to go nuts. There is no fertilization of fields near my watersite. I did have some recent excavation go on near my pond for a pole barn, but I don't know if that would be a factor. I also had a gopod bit of filamentous algae.
I just did my first batch of spraying with Reward last Saturday and see that I need to hit my pond again as too many plants are left standing. Still not fishable.
I did intoriduce Grass Carp last spring ('05) but they apparently are not effective as yet. I hope they can help eventually as I want to get away from pesticides.
I came across two articles on the Net that curly leaf pondweed is a seasonal plant, reaches maturity in late spring/early summer, and "breaks up and drops to the bottom by early July" where it stays dormant until the following late winter. Is anyone able to verify this and if so, should I forgo the cost of spraying a herbicide for this species at this time? I am located in northwestern PA. but I'm sure the principles apply anywhere.
Also, can anyone tell me when to expect progress with the grass carp? Thanks!
Mark, I didn't notice the Grass carp effect until the following Spring. No pondweed the next year.
Mark,
How many grass carp per acre did you stock? I had a very similar situation, but mine was clearly caused by fertilizing the pond. It took a couple of years for me to completely recover. I had good results with Reward and then following that up with young, hungry grass carp. Now totally chemical free.
I stocked 17 grass carp last spring (May 05) for a 1.5 acre pond. It is an old pond and not very deep (9 feet tops). I saw a couple of them this year and they were a good 24 to 28" long. I stocked some garss carp two years prior to that (10), but there was every reason that they didn't make it for some reason. Never saw them in '04. I just don't want to use chemicals anymore because of the cost and the hassle. I'm gald your carp did a number on the pondweed. It really spreads.
Mark, I think the curlyleaf in your pond basically reached a point where the population bloomed once the plants became abundant enough to produce a large batch of winter buds in 2005. Production of exponential or high number of turions then resulted in what appears as a big growth increase in 2006.
I have dealt with curlyleaf pondweed for numerous years in two ponds; one shallow, one deep. In the northern areas without aquashade use, it does die back around late June early July. I think Aquashade delays the growth cycle. Die back happens once the plants produce flowers and turions (winter buds). I was removing some plants tonight (June 1st) and they pulled away from the bottom easy, due to the stems near the soil were already starting to decompose/rot. Plants 2-3 weeks ago would not pull away from the bottom without the stems breaking at midplant.
During July, Aug, and Sept curlyleaf is not visible in my ponds. Previously, I have dealt with it primarily by cutting it with the Y shaped cutter. This is less practical in a 1.5 acre pond. In your case you might want to look into a Jenson Lake mower. If curlyleaf is cut in the time window of between the time it produces the 15th and 22nd branch (node) or just before it produces turions you can get effective control by cutting. If you cut the plant before it produces the 15th branch, then it will regrow (Lake & Pond Management Guidebook by McComas).
I never used grass carp to control it because I did not want them to eat other more desirable plants in my pond. I was always told that grass carp are not real afffective against it due to them not liking the plant very much due to the presence of turions which are offensive and distastful to them.
This year, I am now experimenting with controlling it with Sonar which if used properly can be a somewhat selective herbicide. Kelly Duffie is advising me on its use. I am told curlyleaf is very sensitive to low concentrations (10-15ppb) of Sonar (Floridone). I have no results yet to report.
In my ponds the curlyleaf has not been all bad since it essentually dissappears from the main water column in Jul thru Mar. The only time I fish my pond is during winter thus the weed is not that much of a problem for ice fishing. The growth that redevelops in late fall is around 6"-18" tall during fall-winter. I think this provides excellent cover for small fish during fall, winter and early spring. Abundant growth also competes well against filamentous algae in cold water conditions. I essentually have no FA (especially cold water FA algae) when curlyleaf is abundantly growing.
Mark,
The southern variety of pondweed that I'm experienced with does not exhibit the same early summer die back traits that you and Bill both described.
Grass carp, in my experience, prefer new growth on plants and attack new growth on our pond weed vigorously....but they don't do much to old growth pond weed. The Reward seemed to kill back the pond weed including old growth. The pond weed then tried to regrow/regenerate and at that point the newly introduced young grass carp really did a number on it. The southern variety I'm talking about sounds very different from your variety, however.
Is it possible that your original stocking of grass carp, in 04, escaped? If so, the pond weed growth could have taken off during their absence. Seems like your current numbers should get on top of the pond weed this season. I hope they do and you can get away from the use of chemicals.
Thank you all for responding to my concern.
Bill, since we are practically geographic neighbors, it was good to hear about your experince with this non-native invasive. I think I do recall this dying back in July last year and thought I just did a good job with the Reward. Perhaps, it was going to happen anyway. The reason I now recall some of this is after the curly-leaf pondweed went away (dormant), then the coontail took over. That required a Reward treatment in August.
Please let me know how your Sonar treatment worked out. It's expebnsive, so I hope you don't have to use a lot.
Meadowlark, I hope I didn't lose any carp. I have a screened catch basin at the end of my pond, but if there is a flooding rain, it can overload the pipe and back up the basin. This causes the water to overflow into a field. I do check my field afterwords to see if there are any stranded fish, especially the grass carp, but have never found a carcass. Still, anything could happen.
Mark, Each early summer, curlyleaf dies back quickly in my pond similar as if I had used a herbicide. I would expect coontail and any other underwater plants to start growing well due to lack of competition and more light penetration to bottom area when the curlyleaf canopy dies.
Curlyleaf is supposed to be suseptable to 10-15 ppb of floridone (Sonar). This equates to 1.25 to 1.891 ounces or 37-55.5 ml per 1 million gallons of pond water. I am not sure yet what the best time frame window and water temperature are for treatment.
OK - Its mid August and I just found 2 beds of curly leaf pondweed in my new pond. I tried to remove them but they just rip off of the root mat. They are not dying back at all.
Since the weed beds are still small, you can try spot treatment with a granular herbicide such as Aquathol Super K. It is getting the time of the year when curly leaf is sprouting from turions for next years production. Or your "crop" in a new pond just got a late start in its growing season. It will definitely overwinter as healthy plants and you will not see a die back this late in the year.
I will likely be sorry, but since I have had little luck getting eelgrass to establish in either of my ponds, I think that I will leave the curly leaf pondweed. My other pond has very few submerged weeds, and if this gets out of control, I may add a single grass carp to the pond to cut it back (I think the pond is under 1 acre). Is there any way to reliably catch GC once they are released on rod and reel?
RAH, in my humble opinion there is no simple, sure way to catch GC. They are unbelievably wary of any one approaching the shoreline. They are best caught when young and curious. After that, it gets a lot tougher. I just posted a video on YouTube pertaining to the problems of overstocking them and the difficulty in removing them. Be conservative when adding them to your body of water!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANYoX7vtXt0
Thas why I am looking at only one if any. I would give the first one a few yesr to see what happens. I am thinking that some curly leaf pondweed might work well for a FHM, GS, RES, YP, SMP pond to protect the forage species. If it overgrows, then add a one GC at a time.
If it were me I would nuke the curly leaf pond weed ASAP and find some other plant to introduce into the pond after it was gone. IMO a conservative stocking of GC is not likely to keep the curly leaf pond weed under control.
Great video, Sandman - and words of wisdom to be heeded!
Have you tried catching your GC with a pellet fly or stubby steves pellet imitation lures? If you use stout enough tackle I'll bet you could haul in a few more.
Excellent, well done presentation. I love the words of the astute lady, those fish are so big how do you miss... when you shoot at them? LOL.
During feeding last night and watching my 8 year old niece outfish her dad and catch 16 BG off the dock with a stub of a night crawler, one of the GC I stocked at 12" last October latched on and took us for ride (which seemed like an eternity) on an ultra-light rod and 4 lb test.
Instead of wearing him out I think we wore out the 4 lb test, because once we finally got him close enough to net him, he whipped his head and was gone.
I know without pictures it didn't happen
, but that thing had to be well over 6 lbs (as estimated by 3 adults and an 8 year old). So as far as when to expect progress maybe it depends on what they eat but apparently mine have been devouring Coontail as I never would have expected that kind of growth in less than a year!
It's only the second one I've seen and may never catch one again but I'll be upping the tackle a bit and getting some more night crawlers
Too much fun and a first for an 8 year old that didn't want to go home and her dad who didn't want to get out of the boat!
PB Rocks!
Teehjaeh57, ah yes, the pellets with the embedded hook! I was about to order some of those from Jones Hatchery but totally forgot. Thanks for the reminder! I'm not going to hold out much hope that they'll work though. If you watch the GC feeding near the feeder, they eat only a tiny fraction of the pellets. The odds aren't real high they'll eat the one with the hook embedded, but it's certainly worth a try!
Remember to gear up appropriately to land a 30#+ fish that jumps and screams drag! I'd go medium heavy gear and braided line with maybe a florocarbon leader to be safe. Yes, you'll have to scatter just a little food, cast out in the middle of the pellets and be patient. Folks on the forum say if you hook one, you'd better land them, as they'll learn to never hit pellets again if you lose them. So...use sharp, strong hooks and reliable, stout tackle and hang on! Stubby steves will work, as will a pellet wrapped in pantyhose and clipped/tied off at the top.
Teehjaeh57, thanks for the very valuable advice. I've hooked GC by accident before. They'll take off out of the water like a sailfish sometimes. I've had them on for as long as 20 minutes but they go absolutely crazy when they come close to shore. That's when they've either broken off or straightened the hook.
The Stubby Steve's is a good idea. I've seen it advertised in PB magazine. The pantyhose idea is excellent too, so long as my wife has an old one I could use. I don't have the guts to look in the lingerie aisle at Walmart and go through the checkout with them. :-)
Also, Sandman, the bass size problems you are experiencing on your lake may not necessarily be due to the grass carp. If you do a creel survey you might find that you have an overpopulation of small, stunted LMB. If you remove these and rebalance the size structure, you might once again ketchsumbigwons.
All that advice I learned here from the forum family - so thank you Pond Boss! Maybe someone on the dock totes a shotgun so when you get them close, they can help finish the job and shorten the fight.
180 grass carp for a six acre lake? You certainly weren't messing around. I know the feeling.
I think we can collectively help you here - lots of friends here that live in Ohio. Maybe you can host a grass carp roundup/tournament? I sure would love to see you hoisting some more monster YP sometime soon.
How far away are you from Malinta, OH? I need to make a trip to see Bill Cody and I could throw the bowfishing bow in the car.......
I've got some Stubbies here that I could throw in the car too.
Teehjaeh57, thanks for the very valuable advice. I've hooked GC by accident before. They'll take off out of the water like a sailfish sometimes. I've had them on for as long as 20 minutes but they go absolutely crazy when they come close to shore. That's when they've either broken off or straightened the hook.
The Stubby Steve's is a good idea. I've seen it advertised in PB magazine. The pantyhose idea is excellent too, so long as my wife has an old one I could use. I don't have the guts to look in the lingerie aisle at Walmart and go through the checkout with them. :-)
Mr.Sandman, I have been fairly successful caching GC, but as you know it is a challenge to even land them. They will fight harder on the bank than in the water and with one headshake they will break you off on light tackle.
The secret is “presentation”.
If you are using conventional tackle to cast a PH pellet fly or a Stubby Steve you are going to have to use a bobber to cast it or light tackle to throw it and they are very spooky fish!
Heavy fly tackle works for me, using a 9 or 10 wt fly rod with leader/tippet to 15-20 lbs.
They are difficult to target when feeding with other fish – too much feed and competition.
I have been most successful when I find them “grazing” near shore vegetation and toss a half dozen or so AQMX 600 pellets in the area.
When they begin to notice the pellets, sight cast the pellet fly ahead and to the side and they will take the “fly”. ….UNLESS …. they have been CPR conditioned or broken off before. They are smart and will become hook shy fast.
Wish I was closer – we could have a blast – they will take you into the backing in a heart beat and make the hair stand up on the back of your neck?
George
Sandman, Im sure this has been covered but will toss it out anyway as I did not do a search. Would the depth that these carp can go to and the turbidity (conductivity) clay content of the water make shocking them up not feasible. I know little about optimum conditions for shocking but see more companies in Ohio providing for it.PS Great video !!
Have a big landing net handy to minimize loosing the fish at the shore.
Have a big landing net handy to minimize loosing the fish at the shore.
Or a Gaff!
Esshup, I haven't checked out this thread for a couple of days, so sorry. Didn't want to hijack it from the original poster, MARK C. According to Google Maps I'm exactly 2 hours and 13 minutes east of you, near the town of Wellington, OH.
I'd happily buy some Stubbies from you. You could try your luck with the bowfishing outfit too. Seems like there is only one GC feeding lately at the feeder. Most of the fish now are big old CC. The water, although green, is still clear enough to see down a foot or two. Maybe you can get a good shot at one?
Bocomo, two years ago I had an electro shock survey done. You are right, there are a bit too many LMB, but what's worse, there are crappie in this lake. You can count stocking crappie as another of my naive mistakes made shortly after I bought the property. I do know this, years ago, with no management at all, the LMB, BG and YP where all fat and healthy. Seems like all I did was mess things up.
George1, Great suggestions on fly equipment! They are awfully difficult to even get within casting range though. They are very old GC and very wary. I'll consider everything you suggested. Thanks!
Ted, yes! See above. I did the electroshock survey and although we could see the GC working the surface in the distance, they never showed up when we got the shocking boat near them. We didn't raise a single one.
K. I'll call you when I'm getting a time set up to see Bill. I should still have your number.
