I apologize in advance for all of the numbers I'm about to throw out here...

After reading the "Another Aeration Project" post by mnfish where he is designing a nice solar-powered system, I decided to look into building my own. (After getting so much negative feedback towards windmill systems...I figured I'd abandon that route.)

So, for the past couple of days I've been researching pumps and solar panels and batteries and power inverters and on an on...

I finally stumbled across this company:
http://store.mwands.com/pond-aeration/10...ter-controller/

They sell a system that eliminates the batteries and mumbo jumbo. Just plug into a solar panel and you're off and pumping.

Their system is $599 (You can do it for less by buying the parts individually as I have them below.)

Here is the setup I'm considering, still using this companies power device that bypasses batteries

Their Power Inverter $120
Power Inverter

Solar panel $220
Solar Panel

45 LPM Pump?? $120
Air Pump

The question is... Will a 45 LPM pump be sufficient for a 1/4 acre pond? Their system comes with a 45 liter per minute (LPM) air pump, but when I started to look closer at the numbers I get confused.

I came across one site that says you should have a minimum 10 LPM pump for every 1,000 gallons. My pond is 400,000 gallons. So I need a 4000 liter (1000 gal.) per minute pump???? That doesn't sound right.

At the same time, I see another pump system designed specifically for 1/4 acre ponds that says it pumps 0.8 cubic feet per minute. Well 0.8 cubic feet is 6 gallons per minute...that equals only 24 liters per minute.

I'm lost...

I am not a pro but sounds like a Koi/garden pond aeration system to me. I am sure a pro will jump in with a better assessment.

It is complicated that is for sure. The fact that you know your lost is a great starting point and it's going to get worse before it gets better. At least it did for me.

IMHO, I would try to install electric if I could. It was too far and too cost prohibitive so I bought windmills. There was no solar options or I didn't know about it 12 years ago. For me windmills have worked ok for my location. Knowing what I know now and where the solar technology is today, again IMHO, I would't buy a windmill.

So for me its simple grid electric first and solar a very distant second. Windmills are going to be obsolete (of course this is just one MN'ers opinion and the windmill guys are going to disagree I'm sure )

This site is great. I haven't heard one good thing about windmills, so I'm glad I joined the Pond Boss forums before I dropped $1,500 on one. Ha.

I guess what I'm just trying to find out is how many liters or gallons per minute I need to pump for a 1/4 acre pond.

Then I'll know what size pump to go with.

Here is another example that confuses me.

Pump #1 - 4.5 CFM Output - $920
Says it's for ponds up to 2 acres
http://www.123ponds.com/pa50a.html?utm_s...CFYc6aQodcgoAIA

Pump #2 - 5.3 CFM Output - $200
Says it's for ponds up to 10,000 gallons
http://www.123ponds.com/04280.html

So the second, much cheaper pump has a greater output, but states it's only for ponds a fraction of the size of pump #1

Still lost...

How deep is your pond? Required system pressure to get the air to depth is as important a factor as air flow.

Bill,

8' with a 5' average.
The $200 pump I listed above says it's good to 11.5'

edit7279,

Again, I am not a pro. FWIW I took a quick look at the links you provided. IMHO The $920 setup, 1/4 hp rotary vane pump, would be the way to go if I had to choose from just these. With that one you would still need to buy airline and provide a shelter for the pump. The others are all simple diaphragm pumps which might be ok for winter aeration to just keep a hole in the ice, but they look more like koi/garden pond setups to me.

I think you're right.

I think this is the package I'm going to go with. It says it's good up to 1/4 acre.

1/2 HP Aeration System

Not sure how good of a diffuser that is, but for $399 you get the pump, weighted hose and diffuser.

Then tack on the solar panel and power inverter I listed above and I'm out the door for under $750

I'll just build a little "dog house" to store everything in by the pond and mount the panel on top.

That's half the cost of the windmill system...but I'm sure gonna miss the aesthetics of that windmill.

Check ur PM. I might be able to help with your design

Just a thought, the 1/20 hp pump you listed will draw 1.5 amps continuous at 115V. They did not provide a start current. IMHO I would be worried the 150W solar panel you listed won't be big enough to get er done!

Bill, you're right. I didn't mention that, but I need to find out exactly how many amps that 1/20 HP compressor pulls. On some sites it says 1.5 amps which would be 175 watts, but on other sites it says it only pulls 1.0 amp.

See here:
http://www.theponddiggersupplies.com/Dia...-DC22-p-20.html

There's folks here way more up to speed on this stuff than me. I hope 1 or 3 of them jump in. I am still back at why you are using an inverter and going AC. I guess I would think a solar aeration system makes more sense with a DC pump (12 or 24V).

Come on you electrical geeks! JKB, Highflyer, Mnfish...come on you guys! Jump in and help!

It may have to be a DC system if I can't get the wattage thing worked out. I was just trying to avoid battery expenses.

We'll see. I'm still looking at various options, but wanted to get you guys feedback.

I'm talking with mnfish via PM so he is helping!

Mr. Edit - these guys here already know that I am next too zero help. But I doesn't stop me from trying.

If solar is your choice of aeration system, answer this question first, as it will dictate which design road you will travel:

Do you require aeration at night or require longer than 6hrs of run time per day to maintain the proper level of DO in your BOW? If so, your system will be required to contain batteries. How many, or more specifically the total number of amp*hrs will depend on pump selection, daily run times, and the size of your array (#of panels). Batteries open up pump options and variable system run times. IMHO, this is the most expensive option but the most proven and probably the most reliable.

If you answer NO to question 1, you could use 12V or 24V direct pumping.

Your next question will probably be... How do I know if I need aeration at night or more than 6hrs of run time / day? I can't answer that (Texas vs MN) but I would bet pond guys in your region could.

Thanks for jumping in. I guess I still miss how going thru an inverter to go AC changes any of this with solar aeration. Please help me out here.

Bill- JKB should be fielding that question. He is wayyy more qualified than I. I sure hope he jumps in here. Basically, AC opens up your pump options.

The pump listed by Edit earlier in this post was the AC version of the exact same pump I have been using for the last 5 years of testing. Except mine is the 12VDC version. IMHO, there would be no advantage for him to invert and use that AC pump.

Hey guys, let me explain more about where I'm coming from.

A month ago, had you asked me what aeration was, I would've said something you needed after a long day in the field. So, that should about sum up my level of knowledge on the subject.

Some of you chimed in on my initial post, discussing the best option for expanding the pond. Well I even feel a little ridiculous about that now. I had been eye-balling the pond without taking any actual measurements and assumed it was about an 1/8th of an acre.

Well, after measuring, it is definitely a 1/4 acre (the size I wanted to expand to). We've been getting a lot of rain and snow these past two weeks and the pond is now completely full. It is drastically fuller than when I placed my first post.

With that said, now on to the aeration.

Without knowing anything about the issue, I wanted to go with a windmill system simply because of the aesthetics. I mean it's a farm, so of course I need a windmill right!

I nixed the idea of an electric pump from the start, simply because their are "free" solar/wind options. Plus, it would cost me whatever to run electric 1000 feet, then the additional monthly cost. Electric is off the table in any case.

After hearing so many negative things about windmills, I've abandoned that idea as well. Reluctantly abandoned that idea I should say. I really wanted that windmill, even if it performed slightly worse than the other options.

But, with that said, saving $1000 sounds good, so I'm now willing to part ways with the windmill if I must. So hello solar. And, if I go solar, could I avoid battery costs with this AC system, or should I still go with a DC system?

I've spent the past few days looking at all kinds of solar options and configurations...but as y'all can tell, still not exactly sure what system I should go with to satisfy my needs. So what are my needs?

I plan to stock the pond with an assortment of catfish, hybrid bluegill and bream. (Sorry I haven't gotten the PondBoss lingo down just yet...is that CF, HBG and B?) The pond has no fish in it now.

The pond will also serve the hydration needs of 6-10 head of cattle. (I am going to run a watering system so that they do not have direct access to the pond.)

That's about it. Sorry for the novel. Thanks if you read all that.

Before you get too wrapped up in the system, figure out now many gallons of water is in your pond. Then look at the diffuser design and depth that it/they will be placed. Get the numbers from the mfg on how many GPM of water they will move at the depth that they will be placed at and at the LPM that your compressor will supply. If not enough pressure or LPM, move on to a different compressor.

You need to move at least the whole water volume of the pond to the surface once per day, twice in a 24 hr period would be better.

So, a DIY system, if it's done correctly takes a lot of learning about the systems. That's why the purchased turn-key systems are more $$ - there's a lot of engineering that goes into designing a system correctly for a pond.

Hello Mr. Texas! Please bring the moisture this way on your way home! I don't mean to hijack this thread but I think this info would be very beneficial.

I am still trying to learn all I can about this fascinating aeration science. I have read that ratio of 1 turn/ day minimum before. And was wondering how was that ratio determined. Industry testing or academia? Was there a study(s) that a pond owner could learn from.

Thanks

mnfish, it's easy to test yourself, but it requires some capitol investment in equipment (i.e. a DO meter) I think Vertex might have some data available. Call 'em and talk to Patrick.

mnfish,
Not knowing squat about solar, I've been reading a lot of technical manuals and have the bloody eye syndrome.

As you said, there is a lot too this and needs to be sorted out. I mean, reality from hype.

Without knowing the quality of power coming from solar, it's difficult to answer some questions, but am narrowing it down.

Probably one of the only, commonly produced, AC single phase motor's you could run "raw" from the AC output of solar (without grid connect) is a PSC (Permanent Split Capacitor) motor. There are others, but this would be most common that could work.

I'll have more later.

Here is a bit of easy to understand info on common AC single phase motors: AC Single Phase - Leeson

As you and HF are doing with DC is the way to go for these goals.

Battery or not, it's rather simple, and DC motors are more forgiving on voltage fluctuations than single phase AC. If voltage drops too much with single phase AC, you run the risk of burning your motor up.

Like with solar, there is a lot to electric motors as well, quite a bit more.

Scooting around the web, I noticed Vertex is using a BLDC (Brushless DC) motor in their solar rig. Now, they have that one nailed down! As Scott mentioned, there is a bunch of engineering involved in the packaged systems.

A BLDC motor is actually made like an AC motor, and then there is a whole bunch of crazy stuff on how they are controlled. I have a couple of them up north in boxes, someplace, but they run off of AC, thru a controller.

The new kid on the block is a PMAC (Permanent Magnet AC) 3 phase motor, which is pretty much like a BLDC motor. Oh, they are sweet and becoming more available. Similar to an AC Servo motor without the extremely high price. Kinda confusing.

About a year and a half ago I had to spec out VFD's for a glass factory project. Choice was to go with ABB for this application. A bit less expensive than PowerFlex 753's and we were only running pumps, so didn't need to go super fancy.

While browsing around, downloading manuals and such, I saw this:


Kinda neat and downloaded the brochure, but got a YIKES feeling just based on the size of the array they showed. Never got into the specs.
ABB recently purchased PowerOne for like a Billion to add to their portfolio. They also bought Baldor Electric, which is a premium motor manufacturer.

Now we're getting into 3 phase motors from solar, which is more exciting!

Franklin Electric (well pumps) recently purchased Cerus, a VFD manufacturer. I've used their drives on a couple projects (boss said so), but they turned out to be really nice and very solid. Well, they have a solar rig out now, which is pretty decent.

Because I am more into control and communication with devices, I lean toward the more robust/reliable EtherNet/IP protocol. That's a whole other can of worms.

If you did notice on your solar control adventures, a few speak Modbus RTU and TCP/IP, which is also really solid.

Probably not where you want to go blowing bubbles in your pond, but there is a lot of neat stuff out there in the solar world.

I really started digging on the pump stuff the last couple of weeks. My system will almost certainly stay with direct DC. 24V would be more efficient and most likely less expensive but I will stick with 12V as a worst case during development.

If I can't make the diaphragm pumps last long enough to be throw away (5 years or greater) Rotary Vane pumps are very possible with 12V or 24V direct pumping. This stuff is addicting!!!! To put it mildly, my wife is slightly concerned with the obsession.

24V vs. 12V. this is where I need more education.

Can you charge a 12V battery on a 24V solar panel?

The problem I was running into with my configurations is that the solar panels I was looking at that were above 150 watts were 24V instead of 12V. So I assumed that wouldn't work.

(All of the pumps I've seen are 12V, so I assume they need to be hooked to a 12V battery.)

So I thought I needed to stick with a 12V panel, but then be limited to 150 watts or less that will only run a "small" pump.

I think you'll need a charge controller to go between the panel and battery. Something needs to control the charge rate and voltage.

You can also wire (2) 12V batteries in series and get 24V, but will probably need a charge controller here as well.

There are 24V pumps around. Vertex has a nice one. Gast, and I believe, Thomas has them as well.

I'm just learning this solar stuff as well, but haven't dug too deep in the lower voltage DC stuff for charging batteries. That's on the list tho, but want to nail down the higher voltage AC stuff first.

I'll have to find out which charge controller my camper has. It would be nice to park it out back and spend the summer. AC during the day and DC at night, well, that's the goal. I think it will be a lot nicer than running a generator.

So, here's the most current setup/plan.

1/20 HP Pump Kit ($400)
http://www.123ponds.com/pa10w.html

200W Power Inverter ($20)
www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882021190

DC Alligator Clips ($25)
http://www.directhomemedical.com/532209-dc-adapter-alligator-clips.html

12V Deep Cycle Battery ($150)
http://www.streetsideauto.com/p/optima-yellowtop-deep-cycle-ds46b24r/

200W Solar Panels & Charge Controller ($325)
http://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Solar-Panel-Bundle-200Watt/dp/B00B8L8MD2/

I am in same boat so to speak. Brand new , just filled
1/4 acre pond and have a long way to run juice to an AC system - plus I only have a 20 amp circuit to branch off of.
But in reading all this I don't understand why you would convert instead of just using DC motor system.
Just learning about aeration so need all the help I can get so I am following this thread closely . This pond mimics what I am trying to do including stocked fish type.
So edit 7279 I hope you don't mind if I tag along .

edit 7279,
Since your talking about spending $900+ I think you should keep in mind what you're hoping to accomplish.

If your .25 acre pond has an avg depth of 8 ft, it contains approx. 650,000 gal of water. Others have determined that successful aeration would be lifting that volume of water once per day.

A critical part of your system will be the diffuser and its efficiency in lifting water. For example, the Vertex XL1 diffuser will lift 1250 gpm at 8 ft depth when supplied with 1.0 cfm of air. That's 75,000 gal per hour or 8.66 hours to lift your 650,000 gals.
The diffuser shown in your proposed system seems to me to be a weak link.

As I see it, you need:
(1) An air pump rated for continuous duty that can supply 1.0 cfm at the depth (pressure) your diffuser will operate in.
(2) Power to operate the pump for the minimum req'd time and, if DC, to fully recharge the system for its next use.
(3) The most efficient diffuser you can source.

Like yourself, I originally thought I wanted a windmill powered system. Reading PBF convinced me otherwise. I researched solar-powered aeration systems and decided they were far from affordable or bullet-proof. In 2014 I installed twin Vertex XL2 diffusers powered by a Gast 0523 rotary vane pump. The pump sits in my barn and pumps air 500 ft through buried 1" dia Poly pipe to a homemade manifold at my 1 acre pond. System runs 24 x 7. The electricity to power the system costs about $15/mo.

here we go with information overload again.....

I think I have somewhere around 3,000,000 gallons of water. 22' at the deepest and 10' average depth. I have NO IDEA how to even go about picking the correct compressor (brand, size, type, voltage, etc) for my situation. Also, over in the other thread I learned that whatever pump I look at has to be "derated" 21% due to the altitude. Who knew having a pond could be so complicated!!!

Wow.... I was about to start a new post about building my own solar aeration system. But obviously... what can I ask that has not already been asked? Haha this forum is deep.