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#478790 - 08/21/17 03:33 PM Re: How to setup Winter diffusers for 8 acres [Re: wbuffetjr]
RC51 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/09
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Loc: Arkansas
Sorry WB if I am stepping over you post here but Bill could you please explain to me and or WB on others why deep water circulation is his goal?

I thought the goal of winter air was to just keep the shallows open between 4 and to 6 feet for sun penetration and taking care not to super cool your water but still have some circulation? Just asking why is his goal different? Is it because of the trout I guess?

Thanks,
RC
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#478803 - 08/21/17 07:00 PM Re: How to setup Winter diffusers for 8 acres [Re: RC51]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
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I will let Bill clarify but I took his response to mean that because WB's pond is a trout pond, and since they do well in cooler water, that having that cold water during the winter wouldn't make a difference to them, vs. making a difference to say LMB and BG/RES.
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#478806 - 08/21/17 08:31 PM Re: How to setup Winter diffusers for 8 acres [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill Cody Offline
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I explained in my first post why winter deep water aeration was good for WBuffet. Go back and reread it. 'Supercooled" water does not harm trout; at least nearly as much as it stresses warm water fish such as LMB, BG and especially RES.

I like the diffuser setup in the 2nd picture better than the 1st setup. For the trout application we want good mixing and circulation in the main basin and the cold water currents will spread far toward the edges. Plus with diffusers in the deeper water, the boils at the surface will be stronger due to more depth for the rising column of bubbles. Stronger boils will move water further toward the edges. I think the 8 ac could be completely mixed all winter with daily solar operation with the current setup. Large volumes of water rising from the bottom has to be replaced. Replacement water comes from the edges, travels down the basin toward the diffusers. Extensive mixing occurs. Similar extensive basin water mixing occurs in winter-spring water shorline ice melts or the areas under the ice become warmed by the sun. Water temperature-DO tests mid-winter would be very educational in this application of winter aeration.

Daily aeration will keep fairly large holes (40-60ft) open in the ice. The open water and resulting phytoplankton photosynthesis and daily bubbling action will diffuse air into the water and oxygenate a lot of water and the currents will push this far from the diffusers probably to areas at least 400ft or more in dia from the boils. I have seen a windmill with a 20 ft open ice hole push oxygenated water 200ft under ice-snow cover.


Edited by Bill Cody (08/22/17 11:30 AM)
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#478813 - 08/21/17 09:36 PM Re: How to setup Winter diffusers for 8 acres [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill Cody Offline
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WarrenB - My current version of Google earth allows me to measure distance at a location - map. My G-map had a tool bar at the top with a list of icons. One of them right of center had a ruler. Click on it and choose options in the window. Measurements were pretty accurate in my distance tests. If I knew the address or location of your pond I could make the length, width, & area measurements.

http://mashable.com/2014/07/09/google-maps-measure-distances/#c55mTqPsluqw


Edited by Bill Cody (08/21/17 09:38 PM)
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#478820 - 08/22/17 08:12 AM Re: How to setup Winter diffusers for 8 acres [Re: wbuffetjr]
RC51 Offline
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Yeah sorry totally missed that post... my bad.

RC
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#478821 - 08/22/17 08:20 AM Re: How to setup Winter diffusers for Trout [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 666
Loc: in the mountains
Bill - I feel like you just dropped some huge information bombs for the handful of Trout guys that are on Pond Boss. If not for this thread, I would have just went with 4-5 diffusers in 4' or so of water like I have read so many times without ever making the connection that I was doing a "bass aeration setup" for Trout.

I think I am going to edit the title to replace "8 acres" with "trout" so any trout folks can find this critical information easier.


I use Google Earth Pro and often use the measuring function you are talking about. The current image is an old one and does not show the new waterlines from the increased depth. I am just measuring the distance on Google Earth by estimating where the new waterline is. I come up with 450' from the dock (has been replaced by a dirt peninsula) to the South shore.


Edited by wbuffetjr (08/22/17 08:21 AM)

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#482319 - 11/07/17 11:02 AM Re: How to setup Winter diffusers for Trout [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 666
Loc: in the mountains
Ok folks, got a little more data in and just wanted to post here as well.

As of 11/05/2017 water temp was 37.9 from surface to 20' deep. DO has increased to 8.7 PPM at surface and 8.3 PPM at 20' deep.

One question that may sound silly, but I am semi concerned....

We haven't even gotten into the serious cold yet up there. Coldest temp so far is somewhere in the 20s and we are at 37.9 degrees. What will the water temp do when we regularly start seeing 0 degree days? What are the chances of me freezing the lake solid?

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#482320 - 11/07/17 11:15 AM Re: How to setup Winter diffusers for Trout [Re: wbuffetjr]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1582
Loc: West Michigan
Just don't ever turn the aerators off!!!! You will make that water so cool that the least interruption in bubble action will produce in instant pond wide total freeze like going into a blast chiller!!

I'm kidding of course but have a vivid visual on watching that whole 8 acre pond go to one solid ice mass in an instant due to temporary solar power failure smile

It is a good question. Bill said that trout don't mind 'supercooling' but if the whole pond is super cooled and there is no slightly warmer water ANYWHERE, what is to keep it from suddenly icing up?


Edited by canyoncreek (11/07/17 09:56 PM)

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#482424 - 11/10/17 07:02 AM Re: How to setup Winter diffusers for Trout [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 666
Loc: in the mountains
Canyon - haha! All jokes aside, I am slightly concerned.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this? What's the coldest water temp you think it will reach up there?

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#482453 - 11/10/17 06:07 PM Re: How to setup Winter diffusers for Trout [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5310
Loc: Boone County Illinois
While the boiling point of water drops significantly at 10,000 feet, the freezing point is relatively unaffected (actually a very tiny increase over sea level) by the altitude. IMO your pond water won't get significantly colder than a pond subjected to similar temp and aeration conditions at sea level.
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#482456 - 11/10/17 08:14 PM Re: How to setup Winter diffusers for Trout [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 666
Loc: in the mountains
Bill D I wasn't thinking of the problem in terms of altitude other than how the altitude affects the temps the lake will see. I am wondering what kind of water temps are possible when the air temps are 0 or below assuming we are still fully mixing the lake.

Just got an update today. The lake is already frozen over and the diffusers are keeping lots of open water.

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#482527 - 11/11/17 07:02 PM Re: How to setup Winter diffusers for Trout [Re: wbuffetjr]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5310
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Ah....IMO,there are too many variables to give a definitive answer. I can say that while the temp of the ice cover on top of pond may closely mimic the air temp of 0, the water will not go below approx. 32. If you are fully mixing the lake, I would think the deep water, below the frost line, would eventually stabilize and be slightly warmer (maybe 34 or 35) as the deep water will be drawing heat from the earth. If the frost line is deeper than the pond then the water will eventually drop to approximately 32 throughout the pond and could theoretically freeze solid.


Edited by Bill D. (11/11/17 09:35 PM)
Edit Reason: Clarification
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#482531 - 11/11/17 07:34 PM Re: How to setup Winter diffusers for Trout [Re: Bill D.]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
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It will be interesting to see the water temp at the bottom of the pond in a month......... wink
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#482603 - 11/13/17 08:16 AM Re: How to setup Winter diffusers for Trout [Re: wbuffetjr]
wbuffetjr Offline


Registered: 08/16/14
Posts: 666
Loc: in the mountains
Unfortunately, I am not sure I will be able to get a temp reading in a month, Scott.

I THOUGHT I would get a temp/DO reading last year when we were out there for Christmas.... What a joke that turned out to be. Coming from Atlanta, 4'-5' of snow created problems I wasn't prepared for. Just walking, even with snowshoes, is a hell of a workout in that kind of snow at 10,000'. I strapped on the snow shoes and walked down to the lake with a 6' piece of rebar to see what kind of ice I could find. I walked out onto the peninsula and started poking around looking for ice. All I could find seemed like slush. I NEVER did hit anything solid like ice so I was scared to walk out off the peninsula. So then I was going to drag the boat out there, get in the boat to get out a little farther and poke around. I turned around and started trying to remember where the heck the boat was and realized I was going to have to dig a bunch of 4' exploration holes in the snow to find it! Not to mention how much the snow shoes were complicating all this. Then I realized, first, I was going to have to go back up to the cabin to get a shovel. That was it, said screw this and gave up on getting the data!


Edited by wbuffetjr (11/13/17 03:23 PM)

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