Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site My pond thoughts exposed..

Hey all,

Sorry in advance for such a lengthy post.

OK, well I have a laundry list of questions that I'm sure can be answered here. (Let's just say I've been a minnow swimming around the grasses watching the big fish. )

I have 22 acres in southwestern NY, and want to put in a fish/recreation pond. I was hoping to put in a .75 acre pond, but preliminary evaluations show that without getting the NY state DEC involved in permitting and such, I may only be able to create a pond that is approximately .5 acres.

It will be filled from snow melt and rain runoff, the area of the pond installation is at the bottom of a hillside with ~200 foot of elevation drop. Here in southwestern NY we get plenty of snow, and during the melt, the culvert piping that runs under our road will be spitting water horizontally in the 3 - 4 foot range.

The property stays wet in areas due to springs, which I've read can be a blessing or a curse. They do tend to slow and/or stop during middle/late summer, but the area that is abutting the proposed pond area is so wet in spring that sometimes it cannot be mowed until late May or June (this is after having a drainage ditch dug from one side of the property over to the culvert). There is an existing ravine that cannot be incorporated into the pond design without DEC approval due to dam height.

There is a lot of clay beneath a few inches of topsoil, I have no clue of the type of clay, and have more investigating to do to ensure that it is appropriate for the pond lining. I also am not sure of the depth of clay layer yet.

I have talked to a local contractor that has said that he has installed/constructed 2 ponds and that his co-worker has installed/constructed 3 ponds.

I will be having them dig test holes to evaluate the property (to their credit that was one of the first things they suggested after getting a general lay of the land and visual estimation of the proposed area). They also stated that they would want to transit the area to ensure grade doesn't require a dam height that requires permitting.
I am still leary about the cost involved, and not entirely sure of their expertise. (My wife wisely suggested that I ask to get the pond references so that I can evaluate the other ponds they created)

Initial quote seems quite reasonable at the $6-7K range, but as we all know, unforseen events can turn a great estimate into a LARGE final cost.

I want to draw up and finalize some drawn plans/blueprint for the final phase of the construction considering all goes well during the evaluation phase.

I would like to be able to incorporate piping into the system so that if it should need drained it can be, also I would like to incorporate a small microhydro system that could be utilized during the heavy spring snow melt and rainfall.

Outflow measures will run into the ravine, and the pond will be situated UPHILL from our house, so failure is NOT an option.

Concerns I haven't finalized yet include:

outflow piping depth from bottom - Should there be a concrete encasement around any outflow piping?
overflow design/piping?
duckfoot roller?? (Googled that, now know what one is, haven't asked contractor about this yet)
vegetation
fish viability & variability
fish spawning habitat - I can add pine tops and/or make structures
swimmer itch - snail and/or bird control measures (Something I never heard of till reading here, doesn't sound like anything I'd appreciate)
aeration - forced air or fountain??

Here's a google maps overview of the proposed pond, My house is to the north (top), hillside is North facing. Culvert is hidden in the treeline, but it is on the western side (Left side of pic) and it has a minimum of 30-40 foot elevation drop from a logging road down to the bottom, and it runs quite wide at the top, obviously narrowing at bottom. There is a spring there also that runs pretty well year round and there is a small cistern that had plumbing running down to the trailer.

Thanks for all advice, and now it's your turn to ask me any additional questions.

Chaz, welcome to PB. Doing a couple of ponds really isn't much experience. As a start, I'd buy Mike Otto's book "Just Add Water" and learn about it. The book is cheaper than 30 minutes of dozer time.

Too much water coming in can certainly be a problem. Siphons can alleviate a lot of that problem.

I would have some test holes dug and soil samples to see how deep the clay is. Learn about coring the dam. That is key to holding water.

A lot of this stuff can be regional so I'll let those who know your area take it from here.

You could contact Dave Beasley at SolitudeLakeManagement.com and ask if he knows any contractors in your area.

Welcome to the club Chaz!

I can only help with a couple quick comments and this advise has come from reading PB over the last year as I have been developing my pond maintenance plans...

Using RES (red ear sunfish) for snail control is very popular and considered a must so long as your region supports their needs which I would assume NY does.

Even though I do not have aeration yet, forced air seems to be more beneficial compared to the fountain type, but not as aesthetically pleasing. Bottom diffusers will turn the water over more efficiently and more thoroughly while the fountains tend to work at the surface mostly.

As far as habitat, spawning areas, and structure (all are different you know?), well, it depends on your goals for the fish to be stocked. You may not want much in the way of hiding areas for the young fish if you think you will have an overpopulation problem. BG and LMB and Crappie tend to overpopulate if you do not cull enough where the hybrids lean the opposite direction, but then feeding becomes more important. Where do you think you want to go in terms of types of fish to have?

When I joined the group back in Feb, one of the members gave a piece of advice and he was surely right (Thank You BrianL)

That piece of advice was this. ***Keep in mind your goals may change.***


Mine have changed a couple of times.

It has been ~5 years, but the threshold of DEC pain that I am aware of in NY is 1 acre, not 0.5 acres. Maybe things have changed. With that said, I am glad I have "only" 0.5 acres as it is far easier to maintain and costs less.

IMHO 2 ponds built does not a pond builder make. Do your research here and with Mike's book, make sure you get what you want from the builder. No, a dozer is not enough compaction, even with good clay. A few years of heartache watching my pond level drop taught me that a few $K to get better compaction would have been preferable to my anxiety I had to deal with.

In our area, due to the climate and vegetation, it is quite likely you can get away with a spillway only without any fears, as long as the spillway is routed over virgin undisturbed soils. Then get grass/plants/cattails growing on it as that is the best anti-erosion you can get. If you are still uncomfortable, a siphon system would be ideal for you, as you can direct the outflow well away from the house.

The first thought I had was: can you make it any closer to the house so it can be seen from the house? I wish ours was, but I was trying to capture the most inflow I could get to keep it topped off in the summer (not a problem this year!).

Also: Don't forget the dock. Make sure and set some money aside to build one before it fills, or plan on a floating dock that will move with water level.

Hey all,
Thanks for the warm welcome and advice.


I am assuming by siphon you mean the outflow piping I am proposing for the ability to drain if necessary.

The proposed overflow area that the contractor suggested would be trenched area at top of pond to the ravine.
The overflow should allow for consistant water level given that it is designed large enough to handle a very heavy and/or sustained rainfall.

Bear in mind that I am NOT an environmental engineer, so my first instinct is to over-design things, which also increases cost. But I would like to have an overflow that can handle aa rainfall amount of 2" per hour over a 10 hour period.

I have absolutely no clue on how to quantify the amount of water from snow melt. Especially as it would vary widely depending on snow amount and temperature.

BTW, I am using the terms "outflow" and "overflow" even if they may technically be incorrect, so that the different methods can be distinguished from one another. I wish to have both incorporated into my pond.


I couldn't agree more. I do intend to have a fountain, even if it is primarily for aesthetic purposes.


I have not determined the fish species yet. Wife wants crappie, but as mentioned, they can overpopulate and be runtish at best. I don't want that, and since I doubt we'll be eating fish on a daily basis, they're out. I do know that I want Rainbow Trout, and possibly Small Mouth Bass. Other than that, I haven't delved into the fish populations much yet.

Would the RES overpopulate and cause problems? I'm not even sure if I'll have a snail issue yet, but I do prefer to have some type of plan in place should the problem occur.

I believe that I read that Fathead Minnows help control mosquito larvae, correct? We have more than enough mosquitoes around here as it is, I certainly don't need to give them a better breeding area.


Truer words were never spoken.
Wife and I purchased the place in August of 2010, and due budgetary restrictions, my pond has been "back-burnered" for the past 7 years. We now actually have a budget for the pond, but I feel that I may be shooting over the top, so it may still be another year, but if nothing else, it gives me more time for planning. Of course, more time planning means more ideas, and usually more cost.

To be quite honest, I have wanted a pond for a long time, and it's part of the reason we purchased this property, but with $$ being what it is at times, I really kind of gave up on the idea for a long time. Otherwise I would have already have things planned out.


You are correct, they have not changed those regs any. My issue isn't as much a problem in the acreage, but in dam height.



Somewhere on this computer I also have calculation numbers for water capacity, but I can't locate them at this moment.

Given the slope of the property, and the depth of the ravine, I could quickly go past the 15' elevation requirement, which is why size has been scaled back significantly. Now, someone who is familiar with NYSDEC regs and IS a pond builder may come up with a solution that the current contractor has not.

Although I'm not entirely sure how item "d" fits into my equations yet. There would obviously be maintenance required at some point, hence the abilty to drain/lower water levels at will. I guess it would be nice if they better defined "ordinary maintenance" for the uninitiated in goverment speak.

I have contacted the DEC and the Catt Co Soil and Water Conservation District, and they both have evaluated my property on their respective "maps" and have stated that as long as I can fulfill the above mentioned restrictions, there is nothing to stop my project. (ie - strange bugs that must be preserved, some ancient tree that must be undisturbed, etc)


This is one thing that has really caught my attention. In my initial post I mentioned that I had no clue what a ducksfoot (or sheepsfoot) was. I have since found out, and talked to the contractor, he stated that it was NOT his intention to compact the clay liner with either, but stated that the dozer should compact it enough. This has thrown up some serious red flags, since everything I've read here states that that would be insufficient.

As I mentioned to the contractor right from the start, I'm not interested in someone to dig a hole, I want a POND!!

So although I will have him come and dig the test holes, unless he is willing to do it the way that I want, he will likely not be the contractor to complete the project.



I could locate it closer to the house, but that is not in my design agenda. I have it being constructed near the woodline as much for deer and other woodland critters as for the fish. I do intend to build a little cabin up near the pond, where friends can crash if consuming too much "beverage", and the wife and I can go there anytime we want already. I take my dog for a walk every day when I come home from work, and it would fit very nicely into our little stroll. :yes:

As for a dock, I intend on just a simple floating dock with a short ramp and ladder. Nothing overly fancy, and something that can be removed entirely should I decide to.

I have thought of one more thing I did not mention previously, I would like to incorporate a shallow entry/exit area, but I'm not sure if using a pond liner on top of the clay and adding pea gravel would work well or not. Any input on that would be great also.

Once again,
Sorry for such a long-winded post

Chaz

Just another (hopefully quick) note on fish species/availability.

(how arrogant, I build the pond, but NY considers it "their waters" PUHLEASE!!)

It is "unlawful" to catch and relocate fish in the state of NY due to potential pathogen issues, so I will be purchasing my fish eventually from one of the following facilities, this is not a recommendation nor an endorsement, only a snippet from the list that NYSDEC provides, they are reasonably close to where I live, and they have a decent selection available.



I will likely stay away from the carp unless someone can indicate a reason that I should consider them. I have considered that crayfish could be beneficial, the RT, and I may have to travel if I want SMB. Theres a place a bit south of liquidsquid that breeds them



They do have my wife's second choice for fish, Walleye. Does anyone have any input on them for a pond? I can't say that I've really seen them mentioned on the board at all. But then again, it's not like I've read every post here. My first inclination is that they would not do well in such a small body of water, but I've been wrong many times in my life.

Thx again,
Chaz

I used old synthetic carpet to hold up some of the gravel I put in my first pond. Used carpet is free and will hold up gravel and rocks well from sinking into the bottom. Can see my rocks sitting right on top after nearly two years.

I was not on Pond Boss at the time, and it was only compacted with a dozer; it leaks enough that I have to add supplemental water fairly often unless we get a lot of rainfall.

The second pond, built over a year later, after I knew better, I had them compact with a large backhoe with loaded front bucket. It leaks a little too, but only near full pool, and not badly.

Sheepsfoot rollers are almost unknown in these parts except on highway and large commercial jobs. None for rent around here that I could find.

I really appreciate the advice with the carpet and the experience you've gained.

I am especially grateful that you shared your prior experience with leaking issues. As I've stated before, failure of the retaining dam and surrounding area is not acceptable at all. I cannot and will not have the potential of waterlogged soil/land sliding down into and taking out my house.

I do realize that my vision of that happening is rather fatalistic and probably less likely than winning the lottery, but as I said previously, I do tend to worry about what could go wrong.

I had a hard time sleeping after I put in our woodstove, and I did a damn good job if I say so myself.

I do know someone who owns a "regular" roller, any thoughts on anyone if that would be sufficient for the clay liner? It's not industrial sized, but the cost would be well within my limited budget.

Thx again,
Chaz

Regular roller with smooth drum would not be good enough. A loaded pan scraper would be an acceptable substitute, but most pond builders don't have access to one. A very heavy loaded backhoe is a marginal substitute, better compaction than a bulldozer. I had to go with the latter on my newest pond, or not build it at all.

Agree that the roller isn't the right tool. One of the really important parts to building a dam is a core trench. From Ottos book "Also called a keyway' a trench dug below ground level through layers of porous soils to a solid substrate and then backfilled with compacted soils to create a solid, waterproof, underground structure along the middle of the dam."

I doubt that the guy knows about this or understands the importance of it. Piling dirt on top of other dirt allows the water to leak under the dam. And, that clay mixture has to compacted with a sheepsfoot roller in lifts as it is being done. Mike also says "A good dam starts below it's bottom."

There's no shortage of dozer drivers who know how to clear land, cut grade, etc but not a lot of experienced pond builders. For this job, you really need to understand dirt.

Dave,
You are of course correct on the construction of the dam, I have not had a peek at Mike Otto's book, but have gotten the same information from the Cornell Cooperative Extension in PDF form.



As you may have noticed, this isn't a project that I thought up on the spur of the moment, and I've done some research, especially at this site.

[edit]
Dave, I have thought about this post, and have thought that the previous statement sounds argumentative and well, dickish.

It was not intended to be that way, and that I regret that it came out the way it did.

I have done quite a bit of research, and continue to do so, I have looked at recorded soil analysis of my area, I have looked into the NYSDEC requirements, and have done darn near everything but survey the property myself and dig test holes.

I have been frustrated that when one is supposed to go through all the legal channels with DEC and such, and they reiterate things that I already researched, and offer no additional advice, well the I wonder why my tax dollars continue to pay their salaries.

As far as Mr. Otto's book is concerned, I agree, it likely would have been a good investment for the price, it may have saved me many hours of research on pond building in general, but would not likely have saved me much in the interest of NY law.

I am not trying to be an a$$, but I do get frustrated when I'm given the information that I'm already aware of. My only conflict in this discussion is that you previously mentioned about the dam core. I apologize for not acknowledging that previously. I did gloss over it because I was already aware of such requirements. I was curious if others thought it would be best to encase the outflow pipe in concrete, I did not state all the reasons for my concerns over encasement versus metal or otherwise plates for control.

I get long winded enough without detailing everything down further.

As stated, I regret sounding like a dick.
[/edit]

I have found the personal stories of problems to be more informative than much of the literature I've read, as far as what to watch out for, as well as what to look for.

As stated earlier, I am doubtful that this contractor will be the guy to finish this project. But I see no harm in having him dig the test holes and then I'll know better what I have to work with (filling in a hole is not nearly as big of a chore as digging one).

I can state one thing, I do not have $20K to allocate for this project. That would be reserved for the 2 car garage that we want to have built.

Bottom line, if I can't get the pond I am interested in, then I will move on to other projects and see what the future brings.

Thx again for the advice.
Chaz