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#487380 - 03/19/18 10:53 AM Re: RES pond - I got a problem [Re: snrub]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 3979
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
Which species is eating plants and FA?

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#487386 - 03/19/18 11:22 AM Re: RES pond - I got a problem [Re: RAH]
Shorty Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 4113
Loc: Raymond, NE
Golden shiners.
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#487387 - 03/19/18 12:45 PM Re: RES pond - I got a problem [Re: snrub]
RAH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 3979
Loc: Indiana, Boone County, 25 mile...
I have lots of these in my YP/SMB pond and have a lot of plants and some algae. I wonder if your pond has less alternative food for them, or maybe your strain likes plant material more than mine?

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#487388 - 03/19/18 01:23 PM Re: RES pond - I got a problem [Re: snrub]
Shorty Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 4113
Loc: Raymond, NE
I had some gully washers a few years ago that muddied up the water and it was hard on the vegetation, probably reached a tipping point where it became hard for the vegetation to recover. I can't even get eurasion milfoil growing in the pond now. Water is very green.
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#487392 - 03/19/18 01:38 PM Re: RES pond - I got a problem [Re: snrub]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1708
Loc: West Michigan
You sure it isn't the crayfish doing the deforestation? I have GSH but never thought they would be eating plants! I wish I had some vegetation too (my scuds can't hide anywhere!) but I attributed the grazing of the veggies down to nothing to the crayfish?

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#487393 - 03/19/18 01:48 PM Re: RES pond - I got a problem [Re: canyoncreek]
Shorty Offline
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Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 4113
Loc: Raymond, NE
No crayfish present, I can grow FA in a bucket on the dock then toss it in the water and watch the GS eat it.
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#487394 - 03/19/18 02:01 PM Re: RES pond - I got a problem [Re: snrub]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1708
Loc: West Michigan
That blows me away! So many people come to this forum asking how to control FA and we spent days debating chemicals and tilapia, why is it never mentioned that all they need to do is stock GSH? They are very easy to come by and reproduce like bunnies. Would that not be the automatic recommendation for anyone with a FA problem?

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#487395 - 03/19/18 02:04 PM Re: RES pond - I got a problem [Re: snrub]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5514
Loc: Boone County Illinois


Edited by Bill D. (03/19/18 08:26 PM)
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#487397 - 03/19/18 02:27 PM Re: RES pond - I got a problem [Re: canyoncreek]
Shorty Offline
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Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 4113
Loc: Raymond, NE
As Cody would say, it depends. GSH density likely plays a role in how well FA is controlled. Think of it like a small number of cows grazing on a pasture, they are not likely going to graze it down to dirt, but if you continually increase the density of cows grazing the pasture then there will likely be a tipping point where the vegetation will become decimated.
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#487398 - 03/19/18 02:31 PM Re: RES pond - I got a problem [Re: snrub]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1708
Loc: West Michigan
Ok, I get that, but then why don't we recommend stocking a high poundage of GSH per acre to keep up with the FA? Most people can buy wholesale from their local bait shop or bait hauler and stock for dirt cheap, certainly way cheaper than continually paying to put chemicals in their pond and not keep up with the FA.

I'm going to have to rethink my strategy now....

Shorty, if you want vegetation you will need to significantly cut the number of GSH then. What is the gameplan for that? Can predators keep up with the prolific spawning of the adult GSH that you have? How do you target the biggest of the big adult GSH?

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#487406 - 03/19/18 03:13 PM Re: RES pond - I got a problem [Re: canyoncreek]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4595
Loc: SE Kansas
Great discussion guys.

Canyoncreek, I think in most ponds the predators likely keep the GS numbers in check where there are not enough of them to control FA??? This is a very interesting observation to me because I have never had FA problems in my 1/10th acre forage pond where the GS are thick. I have it like crazy in my 1/20th acre sediment pond that has had FHM stocked as the only minnow species. Hmmmmmm. Interesting.

My new RES pond has extremely limited plant life (some water primrose I transplanted) and I do not want to denude it, that is for sure.

Thanks for all the replies and I think after reading Bill C and Shorty's replies I am going to hold off. After giving it more thought, I already have a SMB/RES/GS experiment going in my 10th acre forage pond. I will wait and see how that turns out.

My main concern is if the FHM and RES fry in this 1 acre RES pond will sustain the 90 SMB at least long enough to grow them to 12" or so. I was afraid I had more predators than the prey could support. When the SMB get to 12" or so I want to remove 30-40 of them and transfer to my main 3 acre pond as a bonus fish. With 50 or 60 SMB in an acre I am more comfortable with that final stocking rate.

Riht now I have 10 SMB in the 1/10th acre forage pond at a rate of 100 per acre and 90 in the 1 acre RES pond. So both ponds similar stocked with SBM rates but lots more relative forage in the smaller pond with the thick GS and RES.

As a side note, the GS completely obliterated the FHM population that originally was thick in my forage pond. I put a dozen GS in about 3 years ago and they completely extripated the FHM population. I put some more FHM in last year but to no avail. They just can not compete with the GS in that environment.


Edited by snrub (03/19/18 03:25 PM)
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#487415 - 03/19/18 04:37 PM Re: RES pond - I got a problem [Re: canyoncreek]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5514
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
....
I'm going to have to rethink my strategy now....

....


Me too. I'm now strongly considering making a quick trip over to Keystone Hatchery and picking up a bunch of GSH. It makes sense to me that the GSH stand more chance of controlling FA if I get them in now instead of waiting until the FA really gets going for this year. They will also make great forage for my SMB, WE, YP and LMB....or should I wait until after the first BG spawn to protect those eggs from the GSH?

With the variety and number of predators I have, I doubt the GSH will establish a sustaining population. Maybe have to stock every year like TP to help control the FA?

Any thoughts or opinions????


Edited by Bill D. (03/19/18 04:41 PM)
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#487418 - 03/19/18 05:23 PM Re: A pond dedicated to Redear Sunfish [Re: snrub]
azteca Online   content


Registered: 07/08/16
Posts: 126
Loc: QUEBEC
Hello.

I would like to put GSH in my pond, but I am afraid they eat the Yellow perch eggs.

A+

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#487427 - 03/19/18 08:17 PM Re: A pond dedicated to Redear Sunfish [Re: snrub]
canyoncreek Offline


Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1708
Loc: West Michigan
snrub,
this is the beauty of the folks who instead of one 5 acre pond have 5 smaller ponds. You can do all kinds of experiments in real time, and it is easier to drain, nuke, and start over with a new experiment.

Do GSH root in the bottom? My pond water is very brown and I always blamed goldfish first (down to about 30 or less), crayfish second (never can trap a one so there can't be that many), and now maybe the GSH?

When I had very few GSH I had lots of vegetation and FA, Tilapia were OK but not that spectacular. Once the GSH adults were 6-8" and several years of young GSH no vegetation and no FA. Hmm... now it looks like I might need a predator smile

One question, you said GSH decimated FHM? I can't see how that works. THe GSH mouth is small even on a 6+ inch size adult. How do they eat FHM? I stocked FHM in a couple of occasions and they never survived but I always assumed that my YP were chowing on the FHM. My goal was to try to get vegetation going again so the FHM had a place to hide and then try to stock again. Or, try to have a grow out area in the pond or a grow out tank or pond to make stocking cheaper by raising them on site.

Check prices at the fish farm, otherwise the local bait shop may be able to put in a order for you of a large bag of adult GSH and you might get them at just a fuzz above the bait shop price if you can be a good customer to the bait shop too smile

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#487429 - 03/19/18 08:28 PM Re: A pond dedicated to Redear Sunfish [Re: azteca]
Bill D. Offline


Registered: 10/19/14
Posts: 5514
Loc: Boone County Illinois
Originally Posted By: azteca
Hello.

I would like to put GSH in my pond, but I am afraid they eat the Yellow perch eggs.

A+


I don't think they will eat the eggs but I suspect they will eat the new hatched frye. Hopefully, Bill C. will see this and provide a definitive answer.
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#487437 - 03/19/18 09:55 PM Re: A pond dedicated to Redear Sunfish [Re: snrub]
Bill Cody Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12299
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Yes GSH and other small fish will eat the yellow perch fry until the fry get too big to fit into the mouth of the predator. However depending on the number of fry, number of shiners, and amount of cover all will govern the survival rate of the YP fry. A large number of adult shiners could easily and significantly reduce the recruitment of YP. This is the situation of Dono from Ontario who has lots of shiners (common and emerald) and his YP recruitment is quite low. I have common numbers of spotfin shiners and I have good recruitment of YP.
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#487439 - 03/19/18 10:39 PM Re: A pond dedicated to Redear Sunfish [Re: canyoncreek]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4595
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
snrub,

Do GSH root in the bottom? My pond water is very brown and I always blamed goldfish first (down to about 30 or less), crayfish second (never can trap a one so there can't be that many), and now maybe the GSH?

One question, you said GSH decimated FHM? I can't see how that works. THe GSH mouth is small even on a 6+ inch size adult. How do they eat FHM?


I have never had turbidity in my 1/10th acre forage pond where the GS are thick, so I would say they do not root in the bottom from my experience.

I stated that poorly about the GS extirpating the FHM. I really don't know for sure what did the FHM in, but I do know the GS population thrived as the FHM population went down. Three things that I can think of likely had to do with the FHM being extirpated. 1. I had several unwanted adult GSF in that pond. Over the last two years I have removed probably 20 in the 5-6" range. 2. Numerous RES breeding size adults in this pond. RES eat FHM. 3. If GS eat fish eggs, I can see where the GS numbers went up and became dense it may have prevented the FHM from having successful broods. Also adult GS likely could eat FHM in the larval or small fry stage. The GS go after the pellets I feed like gangbusters.
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#487453 - 03/20/18 08:32 AM Re: A pond dedicated to Redear Sunfish [Re: snrub]
TGW1 Offline


Registered: 09/19/14
Posts: 2200
Loc: Harrison Co. Texas
In my small sediment pond I started out with several pounds of FHM's and a lot of them were the orange ones. It wasn't long before the numbers started going down. And then I counted 14 Bull Frogs had taken up a home in that little pond. I figured they were the reason why my fhm's numbers were dropping. Funny thing was I might see 6 or so big bull frogs in the large pond and almost 3 times that in the little one. Not sure if it was because of the fhm's or the frogs knew they had less chance of survival in the big pond considering it had lmb.
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#487455 - 03/20/18 10:55 AM Re: A pond dedicated to Redear Sunfish [Re: TGW1]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4595
Loc: SE Kansas
I think the frogs know their and their offspring survival is better where large predator fish are less likely. In other words small bodies of water.

Pictures from my main pond summer of 2015 (before LMB were very big)

Bullfrog with fish tail hanging out of mouth

second bullfrog just a little ways further down the bank


Edited by snrub (03/20/18 10:57 AM)
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#487469 - 03/20/18 03:20 PM Re: A pond dedicated to Redear Sunfish [Re: snrub]
teehjaeh57 Offline
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent
Lunker

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 7776
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Shorty I had a similar issue occur in my main pond - treated coontail a wee bit too much and nuked beneficial macrophytes [American Pondweed, Sago, etc.] and corresponding algae bloom was dense and perpetual even through Winter. Then the GC started rooting and experienced turbidity which exacerbated the water quality issues. I finally needed a Alum/Lime/Cutrine treatment via Rex to set things back in balance. Clarity restored, beneficial macrophytes returned, and so far no sign of the coontail returning. A cutrine treatment to knock down you bloom this spring in order to get vegetation established again may be helpful?
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#488270 - 04/06/18 11:30 PM dedicated to Redear Sunfish - some FHM substrate [Re: snrub]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4595
Loc: SE Kansas
Built a FHM spawning substrate condo today. Would have put it in the pond but 20 mph north winds and very cold discouraged me. Will wait for a better day but want to get it in the pond ASAP because the next warm spell I'm sure the FHM will be in spawning mode.

When I put FHM in this pond they were there only for a RES population. I did not worry too much about their reproduction because even a modest amount would be enough. Now that I have added 90 SMB I wish I would have put in spawning substrate earlier for them and I wish I would have put in more FHM initially. But that is hind sight. I'm worrying a little now that the SMB have put the hurt to the FHM population over the winter as all I am seeing are very small schools of very small fish. No adult FHM have come to feed that I know of. I may put some additional FHM in this spring when the fish truck comes around if I do not see more activity in the next month.

But back to the build of the FHM condo. If it looks a little crude it is because all of it is from scraps laying around except the screws. They were new. The wood panel came from a 1970 build of a hog farrowing house my dad and I did when I was in high school. It has been stored in that shed the last 30 years thinking it would be good for something some day. Today was the day. The blue insulation came from a tear down of our old turkey grow out barns (gosh I'm glad we no longer have livestock). The PVC pipe I had laying around from previous projects. The blue foam will be on top for flotation for when the boards water log (which they will - been there done that). The pictures with the PVC pipe will obviously be under water for the FHM to spawn in. I cut two holes in one end of the panel the right size to drive two T posts through into the bank. So it will lay lengthwise out into the water from the banks edge, attached to the bank by the posts and allowed to float up and down on the posts to accommodate different water levels, much like a floating dock held by posts. This is quite a bit different from my earlier FHM condo's that I built.
Another FHM condo of different design
earlier versions I mostly depended on boards spaced a couple inches apart whereas this mostly uses PVC pipes for FHM protection although they can still use any part of the underside. Also before I used ropes to keep the condo's from drifting around but was never completely happy with that. They would still move some with the wind and when water levels raised they would come close to the bank and when water receded wedge partially up on the bank. I hope the T post tethering will both keep the condo in place better and allow it to follow water levels better.

Pictures of the build below and explanations with the pictures. The extra holes drilled in the PVC is to give good water flow for good O2 levels. If it floats a little high I will add some rock to the top. Had to do that on some others I previously built.


Attachments
20180406_170725.jpg (39 downloads)
Description: Finished product, sitting upside down showing the underside where FHM will spawn

20180406_170746.jpg (25 downloads)
20180406_170733.jpg (24 downloads)
20180406_150317.jpg (30 downloads)
Description: under side hog panel before PVC added.

20180406_150031.jpg (32 downloads)
Description: Top side. Square holes in foreground is where T posts will be driven into pond bank

20180406_141432.jpg (29 downloads)



Edited by snrub (04/06/18 11:50 PM)
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#488272 - 04/07/18 12:09 AM Re: dedicated to Redear Sunfish - some FHM substrate [Re: snrub]
ColdSpringsFarm Offline


Registered: 02/14/17
Posts: 75
Loc: Edgefield, SC
Looks nice! Bet you were bored with drilling pvc before that project was done.
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#488274 - 04/07/18 12:55 AM Re: dedicated to Redear Sunfish - some FHM substrate [Re: ColdSpringsFarm]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4595
Loc: SE Kansas
Thanks.

With that step drill (in the first picture at the front on one of the drills) it goes really fast. If you have any large hole thin sheet plastic to drill, they are a must for your toolbox. Just a cheap Harbor Freight one does fine for plastic. If I was drilling lots of sheet metal I would probably invest in an expensive good one.

Step drill


Edited by snrub (04/07/18 12:56 AM)
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#488335 - 04/08/18 11:38 AM Re: dedicated to Redear Sunfish - some FHM substrate [Re: snrub]
snrub Online   content


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 4595
Loc: SE Kansas
I was thinking of building a second FHM condo like the one above but after reading some more in the archives on FHM spawning decided to put some more natural spawning material in instead. I figured putting in some piles of larger rock would be good for the FHM, SMB and the RES.

Being a cold day, the idea of working inside a cab tractor seemed like a good idea too so moving the rock was pretty pleasant. The first picture shows what one nearby quarry calls 3 by 5 rock. I believe that refers to "everything that will pass through a 5" screen then everything removed that will pass through a 3" screen". In other words it leaves mostly rocks in the 3-5" range although some larger oval ones slip through. I put a glove in the picture to get an idea of the size of rock.

Most places I put a full 72" bucket full dumped on one spot. Where there was no ledge to dump it on I sprinkled it out as far as I could reach with the loader then backed up while dumping creating a cascade of rock down the bank.

This should work good for FHM spawning and refuge for tiny fingerling SMB and RES. I have previously put in slightly smaller lateral rock and AB3 for spawning areas.

An interesting thing is after the muddy water cleared (from dumping the rock in the mud) I was driving the tractor around the dam looking at the piles. I spotted one school of young adult size FHM that must have numbered at least a hundred hovering over one of the new piles in about 6" of water. That was comforting to know I still likely have a good population of FHM that can spawn this spring and provide food for my new SMB. I was worried the SMB had already mostly wiped them out. Whew!

I put at least a dozen of these piles around the circumference of this one acre RES/SMB pond.


Attachments
20180407_143230 (600 x 600).jpg (38 downloads)
Description: 3 by 5" rock showing the size with glove in picture

20180407_150832 (600 x 600).jpg (41 downloads)
Description: One of the piles after the water cleared

20180407_150854 (600 x 600).jpg (42 downloads)
Description: another pile under water




Edited by snrub (04/08/18 11:43 AM)
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