Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Recommendations in SE Michigan

I am looking for stocking recommendations for my pond in SE Michigan (I am just south of Ann Arbor).

BASIC INFO:
Pond is excavated with clay walls all the way through and was completed last July.

It is being fed by rainwater only, though I may drill a well in the future to keep it topped off in the summer months as needed.

The pond has approximately 1.5 acres of surface area with about a 1.2 acre rectangle at full depth (ranges from 12 feet on one end to 15 feet on the other). There is also about .3 acre swimming area that juts out. It has a large open area that only goes to 6 feet, then has an 8-1 sloped beach area.

Currently, the water has about 5 feet left to go until it is full. The main area currently has about an acre of surface area with depths ranging from 7-10 feet at the bottom. The swimming area has about a foot of water. If I don't put in a well, I'd estimate that it should be near-full by the end of the year.

There appears to be no leaks. So far, it holds water well, and has only gone up, never down, even last august when it first started filling.

I did not specifically build or sink any structure for the fish.

I am planning to try to keep weeds and plant growth to a minimum (as much as I can reasonably control it anyway).

I have an aeration system installed, though I am not currently running it.

Realistically, I will be the only one fishing the pond, and it's unlikely that I'll remove very many fish per year.

GOALS:
- Primarily a swimming pond. Fish are secondary.
- I want to keep the pond as clean as possible.
- I want low maintenance...I don't want to feed the fish every day, and I don't want to worry about having to kill off fish when they overproduce and stunt themselves.
- I'd rather have a few good-sized fish, than a lot of smaller ones.

QUESTIONS:
- What should I stock & when to meet these goals? Phases?

- I am concerned about LMB/BG combos. I likely won't pull too many out per year. Will BG overproduce? I can't drain pond if they do. HBG will be stunted eventually if I go that route, right? If I did LMB-only, I'd need to feed them? (I don't think I can get HSB in Michigan).

- Are there any special considerations I should take into account since the pond may not be especially fish-friendly (keeping down weeds & algea, no structure, focussing on clean swimming pond, etc)?

- Can anyone recommend reputable fish-sellers in my area?


MANY THANKS!!!

Derek - Check and see if Spring Valley Trout Farm at Dexter MI still carries LM bass. For your listed goals, I would stock a total of 30-40 LMB fingerlings or up to 6"-8"ers; nothing else. We do this stocking scenario often for swimming ponds in NW Ohio. Bass will not get much larger than 10"-12" unless you provide an additional food source such as minnows, panfish or pellets(if bass pretrained for pellet food). Addition of other fish will cause more maintenance to maintain a good balance. The LMB will not bother swimmers and will not overpopulate. You just won't be bothered by fishing buddies wanting to fish your pond because bass are too small. Bass could be stocked in fall or spring of 2008.

Weeds will be your biggest problem.

Given your low input/low output wrt fishing plan, I suggest you consider fish with no, low, or limited reproductive potential. These include:
HBG (if you manage these properly, it is to get virtually no effective reproduction, hence no stunting)
HSB (oops, I think you're right that they're a no-no in MI)
SMB
RES
CC
Walleyes

If you are stocking predators in numbers that will remain rather limited (i.e. not LMB), initial forage species stockings of GSH and even FHM, in addition to providing a good start-up, may last indefinitely.

Some things to consider to help refine your fish choices:

-Will you want to and be able to restock species on an annual (or perhaps longer interval) basis, or do you want populations which maintain themselves without restocking?
-What kind of fishing do you enjoy? What kinds of fish do you like to catch?
-Are you willing to put in spawning structures as might be needed for some species? These need not be intrusive wrt swimming access.

Brettski went through a similar kind of decision process with some defining parameters in common with yours. IIRC he didn't want to worry about LMB and BG overpopulating and had no strong fishing preferences. He ended up choosing RES/YP/SMB (which does require special spawning structures for the YP & especially SMB to reproduce). See his Help me adopt my fish family thread for ideas to help your decision.

If you don't get any better fish supplier recommendations, Stony Creek (Equipment, IIRC) is in MI and handles most of the species I've mentioned. I have never bought fish from them, but I have been happy with equipment I've gotten from them. Bill Cody has also listed them as a source to go to for "stuff." They are a PBMag advertiser.

Bill I have also seen that done in conjunction with adding a few adult HBG every few years as put and take fish. Because the LMB #s are high relative to the HBG what few HBG offspring that occur are quickly consumed.

Thanks to everyone for the input thus far.

Not 100% sure about Spring Valley...I know they focus on on trout & run fishing ponds for visitors. When I checked their website a while back, they didn't have LMB, even though I think one of the government sites listed them as having them. They are close enough to be a potentially good source of minnows though, which leads me to my next question...

If I were to go with a LMB-Only scenario, could I use minnows as my only food-supplement? Would that be enough to get the size of the bass up a bit? If so, how self-sustaining would the minnow population be?

I have no problem throwing in some minnows once a year or so. I just don't want to worry about dragging around bags of fish-chow and feeding pellets all the time. I was under the impression that minnows would be too small to be a decent meal for adult LMB. If the two would work out well-enough together, that doesn't sound bad to me.

On a side note, I was also considering introducing bull-frog tadpoles. Would these just be all gobbled up by the LMB once they are established? I'm already realizing that I may have problems with Herons wanting to eat up anything that makes it's way into the shallows...I find about a million footprints every time I go back there.

Comments and my experiences.
Despite a lot of lakes not a lot of GOOD fish diverse private hatcheries in SE MI.

HBG - will bite, on a regular basis, the hell out of your swimmers - girls/females will hate you for putting them in the pond. Men-boys tolerate HBG bites better than females. Large HBG can cause mouth scrapes that seep/ooze blood. I can supply phone numbers for testimony.

RES - will only bite and bump the swimmers in the beach area during RES spawning season in MI which is June.

SMB is a good and better alternative to LMB for your situation. I did not suggest them for you because you will have a lot more difficulty finding them. Stock them if you can find them. SMB will not prey as hard on minnows as LMB. YOU could combine SMB and yellow perch. Neither will bother swimmers.

You could stock walleyes and perch neither will bother swimmers. Walleyes may also be real hard for you to locate.

You will need good experienced advice for these two-three fish combinations in a low input swimming pond. Also a combination fishery will take more of your time to manage it properly so the fishery produces decent sized fish and or an occassional fish meal. Clear swimming pool water produces few fish per acre.

Adding minnows is an option. Problem with that is the more you add the bigger the bass get and then the more food they need to maintain their present health and body condition. So you are caught up in a circle. Rarely will minnows be able to sustain themselves in a pond situation that you are hoping for - mainly swimming. Minnows need weedy and structure filled settings to maintain their numbers. Golden shiners are an option for you but very difficult to find. Swimmers do not like weedy, structure filled, cloudy, green, tinted water ponds. Swimmers want clean, clear blue water; fish don't. At least numerous big fish don't.

Ever consider adding just some minnows and then plant 50-100 trout from Spring Valley each September? Trout will survive in your location until early June maybe late June in some years. Minnows will repopulate during the absence of trout. In fall minnows will be abudant to feed each annual stocking of trout. If you don't feel like stocking trout every year in most cases that will also be okay.

Bullfrogs will not become establised very well (maybe 1-3 per acre) unless there are some emergent plants along the shoreline on opposite end of swimming area to protect and shelter the adults. Trout option vs bass option will allow for a lot more frogs.

I have a quick thought about trout, or any fish that would die off.

Depending on who's swimming in your pond, seeing some dead fish around in the water may not be too appealing. Granted, it may only happen once during a season, if at all, but it could prevent some from ever wanting to swim if they've seen it.

Unless of course, you have friends like this:


I'd still try it though.

After reading a number of posts with links to other posts, with links to other posts, etc, etc...I think the SMB-YP-RES (along with FHM & G-Shiners as needed ?) combo sounds very appealing to me. I am willing to install some structure to accomodate these species as needed. I'll probably make another post regarding structure recommendations after I have done some more research first.

Based on the pond information I had listed and with the assumption that I am adding adequate structure for both fish & forage, I'd like recommendations on:

1. Number & size of fish to stock.

2. Timeline as to when I can stock various species. I can get FH's semi-locally. The others will take a little more driving (or money), but they should be available.

For whatever it's worth, I am eager to get fish in there as soon as I can. If it would speed things up to pay extra for larger fish, that is probably not a problem. Also, I am a teacher so I have a good deal of time that I can invest after the second week of June. The spring time is really busy for me though, so if a "spring stocking" can wait until early summer, that's preferable.

Here is a list of Hatcheries in MI

I dont have any experience with any on that side of the state but their are quite a few over there with a good variety of species. Imlay city lists 30+ species available, including SMB, YP, walleye, sturgeon and burbot.

Thanks Bender.

I did actually have that list, but what I am finding is that even if they list lots of species, many don't actually have them all.

Do you happen to have any good experiences with any of the hatcheries in your particular area? I am orignally from Hastings, so I do get out that way several times a year. I don't mind a couple of hours of driving in order to get good selection and service.

Derek,

Several years ago I got 200 8"-10" Walleye from Stoney Creek Trout Farms over in Grant, Mi. They delivered to a lake about 1/2 hour from me and I picked them up there. I did not find a single dead one out of the bunch. I know you didn't mention Wallys but they delivered on tine, very healthy fish that were all the promised size or larger, no runts.

Good luck.

Dan

I was itching to get out of the house today, so I drove out and picked up FH minnows this afternoon. I dropped in about 20-25 lbs of FH's.

Please let me know what people think about this stocking plan.

I've been reading and getting lots of ideas for structure. I plan to add a bunch of misc. structure for spawning and hiding the 3rd week of June (that's when I will have lots of free time).

I'm planning to install a well which should hopefully fill the remainder of the pond in a couple months.

I also bought a couple bags of fish food to help supplement the spring stocking as needed. (This is no longer a concern for me...I initially thought that it would cost a lot more).

Right now, I am looking at Jones Fish Hatcheries in Ohio, as they seem to stock all of the fish I am looking at. I have one other place to check on.

Here's what I am thinking:

June:
75 x 2-4" Yellow Perch (they also offer 4-6" if that would be better)

75 x 2-4" Redear Sunfish (they also offer 4-6" if that would be better)

Golden Shiner? Should I add these too? If so, how many?

Fall:
50 x 3-5" Smallmouth Bass (they also offer 5-7" & 8-10", though they are a bit more pricey).

Does this make sense or do I need to wait longer? If I add larger fish, can I speed things up? What are my options?

I think it basically looks good.

I would hold off on Golden Shiners until maybe next year depending on how your SMB growth goes. Golden Shiners can get too big too soon, ahead of your predators ability to eat them.

I would think you could put the Yellow Perch and RES earlier if it was possible

Is there a size/number combination that would allow me to safely add the YP/RES and the SMB all at the same time? I assume that the 3-5" SMB would be eating FH's for a while anyway.

The Yellow Perch will not spawn this year due to their size and the fact that their spawn season has passed. There is a chance that they may spawn next spring '08 depending on how their growth goes. If they get to 7-8", might they spawn in '08?

The Redear Sunfish don't play too much part in the forage base equation (someone correct me there if I'm wrong).

Now for the Smallies - Remember that they don't grow as fast as LMB, so it's a tough call to know what size fish a 3-5" smallmouth can eat. Adult fathead minnows can be 2-3" or even 4" long. I think it's good that you've put the fatheads in now.

The question is when do 3-5" SMB begin to eat fish as their primary diet?

Because you have 1.5 acres of water, I think the number of 50 SMB is small especially in those small size classes, but I consider that good for now meaning that you won't have put anything way out of balance.

You might want to consider (30) 3-5" SMB, (10) 5-7" SMB, and (10) 8-10" SMB. That way, you'll have a few different year classes. Be aware that the larger SMB might eat the smaller SMB.

I would also add another 20-25lbs. of fathead minnows at the same time.

I guess after writing all of that, you could put everything in at one time with the risk that larger stocker SMB will eat some of the other non-fathead stockers.

If you stuck with all 3 species being the smallest available sizes, I think it would be safe "size-wise", i.e. 3"-5" SMB should not be eating and 2"-3" YP & RES. Just FHM, like you say.

Whether this is wise from an out-year perspective, wrt when the different species start spawning, I'd like to hear from Bill Cody or one of the other YP/SMB experts.

Until then, review Brettski's Help me adopt my fish family (he was looking for character references), paying attention to discussion leading to the ultimate RES/YP/SMB decisoon and paying particular attention to Bill Cody's posts.

I am bumping this up, as it is now fall stocking season, and I am ready to plop in some more fish, possibly for a full stocking.

Here's where I am at:
- 1.5 acre pond, 15 months old, clay bottom. Filled by rainwater/runoff only.
- 20lbs of FH in Spring, 20lbs of FH in June - They seem to be spawning very well.
- 100 x 4-6" YP were put in around April/May.
- 55 x 4-5" RES were put in during late June.
- All appropriate structure will be complete within a few weeks.
- I can feed fish food, and I am willing to restock FH a couple times per year if needed.

I am going with SMB/YP/RES. My choices for fish suppliers are very limited with those selections. The place I am getting them from may or may not have different sizes available. The only YP available are 5-7". SMB & RES will be instock within the next two weeks.

My questions is this...how many of each fish (total) should I shoot for on a full stocking? I was thinking 125-150 SMB depending on size(s) available. How many YP & RES? Should I have equal numbers? More of one than another?

Derek:

I assume there is no evidence of RES or YP spawning this year. I think that both species ARE quite likely to spawn for you next year.

After kicking things around with Bill Cody, my current plans for stocking my 1/2 acre SMB/YP/RES pond next year are for small forage species (FHM + ???) and 20 adult RES to go in early Spring 2008 (and to have the RES spawn!), more adult/juvenile/fingerling RES (all I can glean from my main pond; I might get another 30-50 RES) during the course of 2008, then for 300 YP and 60-75 SMB (both smaller fingerlings) to go in Fall 2008.

Trying to translate over to your 1.5 acre pond (and stepping up to adult YP), 125-150 SMB sounds good. What size SMB is available to you in the imminent future? Figuring you are getting more of what will be adult, spawning YP and RES next Spring, I would want another 100 YP and 100-150 RES.

If Cody posts and contradicts me in any way, do what he says.

P.S. If you stock small (2"-4") SMB in with the larger YP, I am VERY interested in how the bass survive in the face of the potential threat of YP predation. It would help settle a question Cody has posed to me on what size YP I want to stock next Fall.

So it sounds like you are recommending equal numbers of YP/RES?

Will they contribute enough to feed the SMB at the 2.5/3-to-1 ratio that you suggested?

I called about fish availability yesterday, and I was told they won't know sizes on SMB/RES until they arrive in the next couple weeks. The YP are 5-7" only. I seriously doubt the YP/RES have spawned, but I have no idea how they are doing at all. Once in a great while, I will see a couple YP poking around near the surface in the evening when it is cooler. I personally haven't seen any killed off, but who knows. I found one dead YP a week after they were put in, and I found one dead RES (~5") a couple weeks ago. Those are the only dead fish I have seen at all.

My water visibility is very poor at the moment. I can put my hand in the water, and I won't be able to see it much beyond 12-16". I put in a jug of aquashade last spring (I really regret it now), and since the pond is not quite full yet, it gets pretty cloudy from clay runoff when it rains. For that reason, I don't see too many fish. I don't even see adult FHs any more, but since I constantly see various sizes of FH fry, I assume they are doing well. I can't go anywhere without seeing hundreds of baby fatheads.

Yes, personally I would stock roughly equal number of YP and RES (if added at the same time via the same method).

The best answer to the second question I can give is "We don't know." Certainly I don't know.

There is a moderate amount of experience with the SMB/YP combo in ponds. (HEY, CODY!!!!) And people know how to manage things to make that pairing work. (HEY, CODY!!!!) Thoughtful contemplation by multiple minds wrt adding RES to the mix has yielded the belief that the RES shouldn't screw stuff up much, if any, since they don't act as a predator on juvenile or adult fish and do not have a propensity to overpopulate themselves.

Cody published articles on YP management in a now-defunct magazine titled (IIRC) Farm Pond Harvest. His YP management techniques include propping up or chopping down YP spawning success by adding spawning substrate after ice-off in the Spring (like tree branches or the Reel Weeds {tm} Dr. Dave Willis wrote about in a recent issue of PB Mag) and, if a reduced YP spawn is desired, removing the spawning substrate AFTER the egg masses are layed.

I'm putting the triple-threat SMB/YP/RES combo (and I'm not even wearing my swim fins) in just under a half acre; I figure I can tweak the populations as needed while I figure out how to make it work. Plus I'm looking to those a little ahead of me (like you and Brettski) for a little advance info.

That really doesn't help much, does it? (HEY, CODY!!!!)

P.S. Anyone with SMB/YP experience, please comment.

Derek, are you considering adding GSH next year or therafter? That would provide another source of forage for the SMB (and wrt GSH babies, the YP).

I wonder how big the yellow perch (from April/May) are now. If they were 4-6" then, I would think you might have some 8" ones by now.

YP of that size would be eating the fatheads right? But 100 of them for a 1.5 acre pond is not much especially because they would not have spawned yet.

The size of the existing YP perch population is an important factor in deciding how many SMB to stock if you can only get fingerling SMB, or even juvenile SMB.

The condition of the fathead population will also be an important factor for the SMB next spring.

Derek,
1. Try to find out how big your spring stocked fish are.
2. I think you are a little high on SMB to stock. I would conservatively initially stock around 60/ac (total of 90-100).
3. Use wire minnow traps baited with a small amount of bread to attract minnows which attract YOY fish to check spawn of YP, RES, SMB in July 2008 and 2009. Make adjustments if catching noticably more of one species - RES, YP or SMB.
4. After 3-4 yrs, I would try to achieve an 8:1 to 12:1 ratio of YP-RES:SMB. Mix of RES to YP can be your choice but it will likely be dominated by YP.
5. Once YP and SMB reach 8"-10" fathead numbers will be in danger of extinction depending the weed community of the pond. If growth of YP or SMB plateau, reduce predators rather than trying to supplimentally add FHM to maintain good growth rates.
6. If your fish that you initially stock are not initially pellet trained, and if you do not continually feed them pellets, the combination that you are stocking will not adapt well to eating pellets and will only marginally accept pellets in the future.
7. Your biggest concern will be loss of FHM or "minnow" stock and growth of SMB and YP will plateau at a less than big or trophy size.
8. Dr. Dave Willis in South Dakota finds that SMB usualy overpopulate in ponds. I find this also to be true in certain ponds. This may be a definate concern for you. Based on your goals, don't be hesitant to harvest some SMB after 2011-12 to reduce predation pressure.

Lots of good stuff to consider.
Need to mark my calendar for duties in 2009-2012.

Retarded question perhaps, but...what's my best chance of finding out the current size of my existing fish considering how few there are and how low the visibility is? Just throw out a hook and wish for the best? Some kind of traps? As it stands now, I haven't sunk all my bottom stucture yet, so I don't even know where they might be hanging out. I've gotta get the boat out in the next week or so to get everything where I want it.

Theo...I figured GSH (or something) might be necessary after a bit. My main problem though is that there really aren't any fish farms near me, and the few sources that are available generally wouldn't have them in stock. There are "fish days" a couple times a year within a reasonable drive, but they don't have much for selection and they are a bit expensive. After calling around a bit, I've found that most of the fish farms within driving distance (2-2.5 hours) in Michigan have no selection at all...just BG, HBG, LMB. I was reasonably satisfied with the place I plan to buy from, but their season is limited for the harder-to-find stuff, and it's a 2.5 hour drive each way. I got my initial RES from Jones FF out of Cincinnati, but I ended up getting almost nothing that I ordered, and it took a couple months to get a messed-up delivery out to me (and another 3 weeks to fedex a box full of dead tadpoles that should have been on the truck in the first place). Needless to say, I don't plan on doing that again. Really, the only thing that I can get locally (ie 35+ min drive each-way) are fatheads. I am sure there has got to be someplace within driving range, but I haven't found it yet. Unfortunately, the state list (kindly linked by Bender) is not very accurate in terms of selection.

Isn't there a fish farm called Laggis or something like that in MI.? I know it's a big state, but if you had to order from Cinci previously...

I would fish with some fatheads on a bobber. I would get some crawfish attractant like YUM, and dowse the fathead, line, and bobber with it. This will help with the visibility thing.

EDIT: That's to try and catch some YP.