Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Soil questions leaking pond

In a follow up to previous post..have a 3/4 acre leaking pond..I have a well going 24/7 at rate of 20 gallons a minute since Feb...the pond has stablized at about half full...so I am still loosing water..I have read the magazine looking for a consultant to stop this leaking..does anyone know a good consultant in the San Antonio-Victoria Texas area or anywhere in the state of Texas...I want a professional opinion from start to finish on how I can fix this pond...I have talked to the Soil conservation guy but he is no much help..thanks for any input...

Send Lusk a PM. He knows everybody.

jeff, thats an expensive data set but the fact the pond stabilizes half way, w/ 20 gpm going in 24/7 (28,800 gallons/day) tells you how big yer leak is. my guess is that when the water is higher assuming you get occassional rain run-off which exceeds 28.8k gallons per day, the head pressure on the leaking area increases, and thus the leak "production" increases accordingly until the water "equilibrates" back at half pool.....this is how my pond used to be, and without supplemental water, dried up completely in a matter of a month or so.

my fix was a straightforward dig out, clay line all suspect areas, let it refill and watch, i now hold water year round although there is some seepage at full pool (due to max hydraulic pressures at full pool), and then once its down 2 to 3 feet, summer evaporation takes care of the remaining 3 to 4 feet it drops (6 to 7 feet total over the summer).


good luck, and i'm sure mr. lusk will have important feedback for you.

thanks for the input..i was trying to hold off for a year and see if it would hold more water but it doesnt look like it will..it is 6 feet deep and I have it full of cats and bg with largemouth...guess i just need to bite the bullet..I was hoping to find someone who could analyze it all and tell me what I need to do to fix it...thanks again..I will send Bob an email..

how do I send bob a PM?

go to the user list (top of this page in the toolbar) and look up: Bob Lusk
you can figger it from there

Jeff,
We just had our pond analyzed by HTS Consulting out of Houston.

http://www.htshouston.com/

Ours was a big project. We have a 35 acre pond that was repaired once before, but only the bottom 1/3. When we suffered the same as you ( filled to half way and then leveled off) we got HTS out. They drilled around 20 monitoring wells around the perimeter to the depth of the pond. Pesiometers were installed, and a 4 month monitoring commenced. This located three main areas of leak that accounted for an estimated 400-500 gpm leak rate (we had over 40" of rain in the time frame of the study). The result has been repair of approximately 11 acres of the remaining pond bottom. Due to cost considerations, the repairs were done using ESS-13. That is a whole other story.
We are filling now (just completed the repairs last week) and we have gained 20" in just 10 days on an estimated 10 acre coverage.

Jeffh:
I am available for consultation all over the US and I live in Lindsay, Texas (north of Dallas/FW area). You are welcome to call my office at 1.800.882.3478 (DIRT) between 8 and 12 weekdays and speak to Sheri. She can tell you about our phone appointments and consultations. Also, you can email me at mikeotto@ottosdirtservice.com or through our web site http://www.ottosdirtservice.com.

Jeff, pay close attention to Mike Otto. He's good; real good.

Please don't tell him I said anything nice about him.

I have sent off 4 soil samples friday, shut off the water well, and will begin the process of figuring out what is wrong..thanks for all your help..I will be contacting M.Otto..

Mike builds water holes that are homes for fish with forethought about human usage. If I ever do another one, Mike will do it. I talked to one guy that Mike had done a pond for. At that time, Mike had a D8. Those suckers are huge. He had the blade down peeling about 10 to 12 inches of dirt and also had the back rippers down preparing for the next run. Not many of them do that.

Talked with Mike Otto who by the way was more than helpful..His past experience shows with his knowledge of what will and what wont work..I appreciate his time in helping me solve this pond leakage problem...does anyone have experience with using bentonite and how much did you use?? was it based on soil samples, amt of leakage, depth of pond?? I hear anywhere from 2-8
lbs a square foot??

I put 2 tons in my ~.5 acre pond and it didn't fix it. Spread by shore and boat. Most of which went right on top of the leak. After draining the pond, I found that most of it had settled in the deepest part of the pond. The guy who I bought the bentonite from couldn't explain it. My guess is that it just slid down the step sides and didn't stick.

Here are a number of links to prior discussions on bentonite and methods to stop pond leaks. Several note the use of drilling mud in various methods. See the first link for our successful use of drilling mud.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001709
http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001716
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000081#000003
http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001522
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001522#000001
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This is copied from a prior thread - some links work some don't. JP is working on a fix for the links.

Thanks for the links...I have talked to a bentonite distributor..he starts off recommending 2# per square foot..and on up depending on sand content..there should be a formula somewhere to estimated how much bentonite to use?? I will keep researching...the cost difference will add up quickly.. 40 tons of bentonite (enough to cover an acre) will cost 3500 including delivery...

There is a little info on this site. This is where I got mine.

http://www.seminolemud.com/treatment.html

Just wondering who has had success with bentonite how the process went...and what would make it easier..thanks in advance for the info...

i've always been skeptical of water application methods but if you can have success at $3500 for a 3/4 acre pond without draining, amen. if the leak is localized and relatively strong i can see how it might draw in the bentonite to plug itself, but if its a widespread area that is seeping, in my mind, the best fix is a drain, add clay, til it in, compact, and let it fill again...FWIW.

Actually I will drain the pond...I have been researching this leak problem for some time now..this is what I have found out for those of you interested...
1) Soil type has a lot to do with it but my samples I sent in showed 4 different types of soil throughout the pond...each with differing amts of clay..the majority of the pond has 19% clay,24%silt,and 57% sand....the other samples have more clay in them..
the soil conservation service said that should be enough clay to hold..however I have been leaking water daily..
2)You see different recommendations on amounts of bentonite to put in the pond...a lot of that has to do with the quality of bentonite.not all bentonite is the same..you need to see what the local guy has and recommends depending on soil type...
3)It is best to dry the pond out, remove all structure, and make sure all the holes, crevaces etc have been filled in before putting he bentonite down...then disk or till it in 4-6 inches..
then compact the soil...
4)One test is to get a 5gallon bucket, drill holes in bottom, place a 3-4 inch layer of gravel in the bottom..then pack the soil your going to test in the bucket about a foot or so..then saturate the soil over a several day period...if water cont. to leak out then stop..let it partially dry out (top 4-6 inches) then add a pound of bentonite to the top 4-6 inches..mixing it well with the soil...add water to the top of that..see how long it takes it to leak out...keep adding till you get it to where it doesnt leak..then some sources say add 25% to 50% more to that total to allow for depth and head pressure from the water..
which makes sense...if your going to all this trouble and expense it would be worth the extra insurance...
5)Never fully trust a dozer operator as an expert..get soil samples and do some basic tests before filling a pond..it is much easier to fix it from the start then to drain, remove all stucture, and re-do it...lessons that I have learned ..thanks for everyones intput...I appreciate this web site..it has been more than helpful...

We use a liner, called a Claymax liner, to line the inside of containment dams around tanks holding petroleum products in case of a tank leak. It is a fabric with a bentonite product sandwiched in between. Was wondering if anyone has ever used it for stopping pond leaks. It will definitely hold water.

As some on this forum may remember, we have had a huge leaking lake for the past two years. The 1st attempt at repair used a low PI clay plowed into the soil and packed. While this appeared to work at 1st, the leak was still there when the lake got near full. After another year, including 6 months of engineering study, the "fix" was the use of ESS-13 combined with truck loads of fly ash to condition the soil and add needed binders. The procedure consisted of removing the top 6-8" of sandy top soil, plowing the subsoil while adding in the fly ash, compacting this mixture, surface spraying the ESS-13, then covering with the original top soil. This was then followed by additionally compacting the top soil. After 60 days since repair, we are gaining 1" per day in depth on a 25 acre surface coverage. At the well pumping rate, this calculates to exactly the expected rise rate which would indicate the leak has been stopped. While it is still too early to claim success, I am hopefully optimistic.
I have taken lots of pictures, created a spreadsheet that tracked water loss and now water gain, evaporation estimates, rainfall and run-off, etc. If this ends up working, I will have a good testamonial for ESS-13 and quite a story to tell.

Mike great news - sounds like a PB mag article to me.

You sound just like me. After my repair I created spreadsheets to track the loss/gain etc. Now that it is getting cold (and I don't like to be out in the cold), I'm looking at a way to monitor the water level remotely (from my house) and I'm just about finished with the prototype. Maybe I'll get lucky and get to stay out of the cold.

Okay..I have shut water off since Oct 10..pond leaked a lot a first and has evenually slowed..Gone from 6 feet to 1.5 ft now..the last 3 weeks I have been pumping water out off and on....from what I can gather from my own research and talking to professionals is that I should have had the soil compacted better...I still have been unable to find someone who even for a fee will give me expert advice..My current plan is to redo the pond with compacting and 4 lbs/sq foot of bentonite ...if anybody knows a professional in the San Antonio area, please let me know..before I spend 8,000 dollars on bentonite and dozer work I would like to know where I stand...thanks...

There is someone that advertises in the PB mag. from San Marcus. I can not recall name at this time, but he is a regular advertiser and is in the pond building business.

I would start there.

I could not find the name of the guy in San Marcos..Can someone help me out here..Also...I checked into the bentonite...found a guy in Flatonia Tx that carries Calcium Bentonite that has been treated with Sodium..they sell it as pond seal..he says it wont hurt the fish and will seal a pond..Anyone have any experience with that? thanks again..

Jeff,

It is Johnson Lake Management Service. 512-396-1231. 310 Deerwood Dr. San Marcos.

Thanks Rick..and thanks again for your advice..I am going to pick up a sample of the bentonite in Flatonia and compare it to the Texas sodium bentonite before I proceed..

In a change of plans I have talked to a reputable dozer operator.I will obtain some clay from the back of my place and line the entire pond much cheaper than using bentonite..questions are: He will be using a dirt buggy to haul the dirt in..will that compact as good as a sheepsfoot roller?..also I have seen 2 types of sheepsfoot rollers..one you pull behind a tractor and the other is motorized..any difference in compaction capabilities?...One last question is that I will be cleaning the silted/washed in areas out...should I compact the bottom before I start adding the clay?? thanks for your input..

Hi Jeff,

Glad to hear you found suitable clay to line the pond with. Hauling it should be cheaper than buying bentonite.

A dirt buggy will not compact as well as a sheepsfoot roller, but it will do an acceptable job of compaction when properly used. It should be fully loaded with dirt and used to run over the entire area several times. The idea is to apply and compact the clay in 6" lifts, either two or three, depending on the planned thickness of the finished liner.

In my opinion, there would be no difference in compaction capabilities of a motorized sheepsfoot roller and a tow behind sheepsfoot roller.

I would recommend that after the silt is removed, you plow or otherwise scarify the area to be lined to a depth of about 4". Then mix the first layer (lift) of clay with this 4" layer before you begin compaction. This should help insure a good bond between dissimiliar soil materials. No further mixing will be necessary for the additional lifts. However, if the previous lift has crusted over, it should be lightly plowed or scarified before applying the next lift.

I hope this helps.

Rick

Thanks for the reply...I will send samples off of the clay to test it..I am considering getting a civil engineer to assess this whole situation...before I jump in again...every thing I have read really stresses compation, compaction and compaction...yet I never hear any dozer operaters talk about it..the soil also has to have the right moisture content when you compact..they dont say anything about that either..

Just to follow up...pond project is finished..hauled in clay material from back of my place and lined the pond with at least a foot of clay..packed with dirt buggy...2 inch rain brought a foot of water in bottom and holding good...wanted to add another foot to the bottom but rain came and too late..

Jeff

Let us know if you get any more rain and how the pond is holding.

OTTO

Pond update..Have been filling pond since end of April..up to 7.5
feet..cut water off yesterday from well...tank about 2.5-3.0 feet
from full pool...water went down 3/4 inch in 24 hours...not quite sure if that is evaporative loss or some seepage..anyhow it is better than it was...pond will be 1.25 acres full..any comments on this rate of water loss??

3/4 inch in 24 hours sounds a little high for evaporation but who knows. I gave up on trying to figure out what the 'real' evaporation rate should be day by day.

You could try a method that I recently started using to help nail down the water loss as evaporation or seepage. If your lucky like me and have another pond near by, you could do a comparison. My neighbor is nice enough to let me monitor his water loss at no charge Our ponds a pretty close to the same size and his seems to hold water like a sink. Kinda like the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Just an idea....

New pond saturation has been discussed here a number of times before. I know, cuz I freaked a little during our fillup. It is a fact and normal occurrence. The recommended medicine is watch and wait. Keep track of the fluctuation. If you are real nervous, there is the pan evaporation experiment.

It is not out of line for the water to go down on the first filling. All the dry dirt around the pond needs to be saturated, once that is finished then start to keep a close eye on the water loss.

otto

Just to update..I left well off for another day due to hurricane in my area...there was 0.4 inch rain in pond, yet the pond dropped approx. that much as well...I will watch and wait..turned pump back on...thanks for everyone's input..

Brettski,

Can you elaborate a little on the pan evaporation experiment you're referring to? Can it be done without a 'real' evaporation pan? I once checked into buying one and it seems like they were a little on the expensive side.

Being able to get a good handle on what the real evaporation rate is for a given area may be handy since the daily evaporation rates would vary.

Anyone know what pan evaporation experiment Brettski is referring to?

Put a leak-proof container full of water next to the pond, compare evaporation only (pan) to evaporation plus leaks, loss to soil evaporation (pond)?

BTW, don't let the dog drink from the pan.

sorry Cheezy...missed the ?.....thx Theo

thanks guys.

Got any specs or ideas for this leak proof container? I know that a real evaporation pan would be best but a little on the expensive side. How about a 5 gallon bucket or one of my wifes good cooking pans?

Of course I would need to make sure no animals drink from it to skew the results.

Would be really nice to have a good idea what the evaporation rate is because I think my daily loss it real close to the evaporation rate now.

Or wee into it, that could skew the results as well.

On a more serious note, Cheezy, I would think that one of you're wife's cooking pan would work just fine.

Heck I use my wife's cooking utensils for all sorts of stuff. Or at least I use to before I was banned from using them after the unfortunate turkey baster incident.

You want to use a container that will provide similar surface exposure as the test sample (pond). A short sided pan (one that won't block or disturb winds/breezes) would likely be the best option. The real question, and I think Theo raised it in one of his posts, is the color of the interior since different colors promote differing levels of solar gain.
???

How else were you supposed to get DIED's head out of the glacier using only hot coffee?

hahaha...some funny responses. thanks guys. I think I got the idea now.

I'm on my second day in row of .25 inch loss in 24 hours. I think the loss is real close to evaporation.

Update on water level...Since summer over and less evaporative losses the pond has come up..the past week it has come up one inch to 8ft 10"...still a slow increase..We have had no rain here in south central Texas..I am hoping that it is just saturation of the surrounding soils...I am about 1.5 ft from full pool...The real test will be when I shut the pump off..

leaking pond this good,by the way what is the meaning of this,








___________________
Great thing to know about busby seo test.

Place a weighted bucket in the pond with the rim 2" above the surface of the pond level. Fill the bucket to the same level. Measure the difference in levels between the 2 each day.

Ric

I will keep that in mind good idea.

Another question regarding soil saturation..it appears on the dam side of a "dug out" pond, the soil is saturating way up the bank as compared to the other side where it is closer to the water line..what causes this to happen?

Jeff, could it be from wind action pushing waves onto that side??

The possibility that occurred to me was different soil conditions on the two sides.

The pond was lined with a better clay earlier this year...so of it could be some wave action, however, it sees to be going a lot further up the bank on that one side..and when the pond is at full pool, the one side will definitely have more soil saturated up the side..not sure if slope of the one side has anything to do with it as well...

My pond will wick out a lot higher in a less compacted area above the water line.

Thanks for the info..I will watch it..

any update on the wick situation , hope thats all it is!!!!

Have not turned pump off...still gaining though very slowly..will shut it off here in a week or two just see what happens..will keep you posted..I am about 8 inches from full pool of 10 feet..I am encouraged because I may not have to pump all the time once we get some rain down here in Texas..

Get some what?

Hey Mike,
We have a 4.5 acre leaking pond. It is in compacted clay soil. The NRD is doing an engineering study on it now. It appears that the bottom of the pond is in the watertable and we think we lose our water into that ( because it stablizes at a low level). We are thinking about ESS-13- added directly to the water. I'd like to see some of your info or if anybody else has had some experience with this product- please let me know.

Brad