Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Calling Bill Cody & Mike Robinson

All other input is obviously welcome, but I specifially posted these two guys names as they are experienced in northern pond management. But please feel free to chime in as I know there are a lot of other qualified people on here.

A friend just put in a one acre pond, and as I indicated in a previous post, he has his heart set on a walleye/yellow perch pond. Possibly a few smallmouth and hybrid bluegills too, but he doesn't want largemouth bass. Imagine that!

I realize this subject was discussed earlier extensively, but I don't believe the following questions were answered specifically.

Here are my questions:

1.)At what depth of water can he plant the pond after it begins to fill? I'm assuming he can once it is deep enough to protect the fish from predators, as long as water levels are rising?

2.) Should he plant the yellow perch first if they have not spawned yet to provide forage for the future walleye that probably won't be available until early summer? If that is the case, what if the pond has not filled enough yet, and we miss the oportunity to plant perch before they spawn?

3.) What sizes and numbers of the walleye and perch should he plant for this one acre pond that has no other fish?

4.) Would a forage minnow planting of fatheads or shiners be a good idea depending on whether the perch have spawned etc. Obviously there isn't much cover in this pond, so the fathead would probably be eaten quickly, unless they were allowed to reproduce before any predator fish were planted.

I do realize he will not have much walleye reproduction, and will have to periodically plant more walleyes of an advanced enough size to prevent them from being eaten entirely by the existing walleye and yellow perch.

Any other insight would be appreciated and experiences of customers and pond meisters on this site.

Hi Cecil. It is difficult, if not impossible, to establish a stabile perch/walleye fishery in a 1-acre pond. Having said that, if your friend is willing to stick some time and money into population management, it can be done. First, I'll reply to your questions:

1. You can put minnows & shiners in once you have 3 feet of water. I'd wait until you have about 5 feet of water before you stock the perch/walleye, because shallower water is susceptible to wild temperature swings & predators.

2. I wouldn't worry about the spawn this year. Besides, Yellow Perch are unpredictable in small ponds, and you may never get a quality spawn...then again, you may be inundated with perch...who knows. One important thing is to request "regular" Yellow Perch from the fish supplier, because some suppliers, like us, are currently experimenting with all female Yellow Perch (product of "sex-reversed" broodstock) and triploid Yellow Perch. We never stock Walleye in the early summer because they are very sensative to handling in warm water. Normally, we'd either stock both the walleye & perch in mid-spring or fall.

3. I'd recommend stocking 50 pounds of Fathead Minnows, 25 pound of Golden Shiners, 200 5-7" Yellow Perch and 20-30 5-7" Walleye this spring. If there isn't much weed cover, the fatheads will probably need to be restocked in the fall.

4. I think Fathead Minnows are critical in this plan. In my area we also use Emerald Shiners, but I don't think they are allowed in Indiana. I just filled out the fish haulers & aquaculture permit paper work for the state of Indiana, and Emerald Shiners were not one of the listed species...too bad. Maybe someone can fill me in on this. The Golden Shiners would provide forage for the Walleye, because a fathead is a little smaller than what they like to feed on. Also, the Golden Shiners have different spawning habitat requirements, so stocking 2 forage species will increase your odds of having a productive forage base.

Walleye will more than likely not reproduce at all in there. I would restock those every couple years, or more often if he's harvesting some. 20/acre doesn't sound like much, but they will have a big impact on the forage base. I wouldn't worry about long term plans because this pond would have to be reevaluated each year to determine what types of harvesting or corrective stocking should take place. This is definitely not a "stock it & forget about it" type of pond.

I hope that helps,
Mike Robinson
Keystone Hatcheries

Cecil - Lots of questions and the topic is complex.

Everything is dependant on if he feeds fish food or not and which fish will be pellet trained? As you know, this affects overall producivity and to a great extent predation pressure.

1. If you want to do it the best way, producing the optimum growth, establish minnows/shiners first. Get an abundant forage base before adding any predators. Minnows grow them or buy them; several hundred pounds/ac. If you buy them you can stock predators right away. Without minnows carrying capacity of predators will be lower.

2. Perch (esp. 4"-7") do not feed very low on the food chain. I basically consider them a predator. So, buy themselves they do not make an optimum forage critter. We have perch only ponds and owners have a very difficult time maintaining minnow forage. One guy with a 1/2 ac. pond & only perch adds 5-10 lbs minnows every 2 wk.! Perch by themselves can be very agressive. I've seen them chase minnows onto the beach similar to LMB.

3. You can stock minnows as soon as water is in the pond and provide floating substrates for their spawning. As soon as water enters the pond, phytoplankton begins to multiply rapidly. If you want a more diverse bloom also seed with water from another pond. If the owner cannot be patient for one yr. and let the minnows develop, then stock 1"-3" perch in spring with the minnows. Pellet trained perch are obviously best here. If you stock perch right away they will spawn the next spring and you are on your way to minnow devestation from all the extra YOY perch. People usu. don't believe me until they see it for themelves. The old perch are eating breeders and YOY are eating hatchling minnows. It may not be quite this bad, but in the third summer it gets even worse esp if another reproducing predator is added. If you do only minnow/shiner first yr you also allow some rooted plants time to develop 'beds' to provide refugia for forage once the predators are added. I think rooted plants should be cultivated in a stocking option like this.
I have not had anyone try to fertilize and reduce water clarity to provide protection for minnow/forage. Might work?

4. I don't recommend you add SMB or walleye until the perch have spawned once, twice, or three times and thinning needs to be done to keep the perch growing. At this time you will also see if the minnows are able to maintain population densities against perch predation. SMB will reproduce and YOY will eat lots & lots of minnows similar to LMB. I have SMB reproducing in a hard mud bottom pond. A nonreproducing predator provides one with much better control of the situation.

5. Stock densities. Depends if fed vs nonfed.
5A. I tend to stock perch at similar densities to bgill but reduce the numbers by approx 20%-40% since they eat more minnows than bgill. Number of perch stocked is also dependant of forage available. Forage is KEY. As you know growth is directly proportional to available forage.
5B. Walleye stocking density will depend on available forage. You want fast, med, or slow growth?? Fast= 20-30/acre, slow= 80-100/acre assuming abundant & diverse forage. Wall. growth rates in ponds will hopefully be in the new issue of PB if MM does not chop it.

6. I don't have anyone using walleyes with bgill. Walleye will eat bgill but I don't think they will get as large or grow as fast as with other types of forage. I don't think walleye will get very large on a diet of only bgill. Thus I have never suggested it to anyone that is serious about quickly growing nice sized walleye.

7. A few walleye in a pond dominated by minnows perch and SMB may do alright if conditions are perfect. Walleye can now eat bass and perch.

8. I think the key to doing this right is to harvest the walleye at the optimum size. Currently for me this is 16-20".

Mike and Bob,

Thanks for the imput! It is greatly appreciated. I understand the time it took you two to respond in the length you did, and as I said, I do appreciate it.

Of course your valued information would not be possible without Pond Boss so I am also appreciative for that. (Will be sending in my subscription money soon!)

I may try to convince the friend to ultimately go with a smallmouth/perch pond with a just few added bonus walleye. I put fingerling smallmouth from Keystone Hatchery (Mike Robinson) in my warmwater pond a couple of falls a go, and by the following summer I had numerous 12+ inch smallmouth, and they were really stocky, which we don't typically see in the natural lakes of my area. I know the food supply has much to do with it, but these fish were especially well conformed.

Thanks again I will give a copy of this to my friend.

Cecil - I don't recommend stocking walleye until everything has established themselves in the pond. Make sure the minnows/shiners can maintain their populations before adding a third predator. He should be happy with only perch and SMB if he can keep minnows present from one spring to the next. There again I would not add SMB until the perch have spawned at least once. I repeat, as many predators on feed as possible, sure helps the minnows survive. Fathead spawners will probably not be able survive for two or three consecutive years. If they do, he is doing lots of things correctly.

I'm also hoping to create a walleye/perch/smallmouth 1.5 acre gravel pit pond in Michigan that will be excavated this year. It sounds like if the ultimate goal is to grow walleye, management would be easier to eliminate perch and use a shiner forage base with plenty of cover and rooted plants. Maybe add rockpiles and crayfish to augment minnow forage. Is this a sound approach? and if so, any suggestions on plant types that would encourage successful shiner spawns without being too invasive (eelgrass?)

Steve - What type of shiner were you thinking about using? Not all shiners spawn the same way. Eelgrass is good cover that develops mid summer to protect late-spring early summer minnow spawns. You also may want to plant another underwater rooted plant that grows a little earlier in the spring to provide some quick spring cover.

Rock piles and crayfish are good. Use papershell crayfish.

You have to decide which is more important to you; walleye or SMB. With perfect conditions both can work; but one has to be more abundant & dominant if both are used. If you don't want the perch as a panfish omit them. But if you use them SMB or walleye will help you thin their numbers.

Consider this. Don't get into a big hurry to add the predators (SMB or walleye) allow the minnows/shiners, possibly perch & weeds to develop & get established. Perch will get big in your pond if minnows are always abundant. If you want dependable perch spawns, provide some small tree tops along shore (surface to 2'deep) for spawning. Today I caught several 12"-13" perch thru the ice in a basically minnow/perch/SMB only pond. Also routinely catch SMB to 14-18". All dandy fish.

SMB will be a much better catchable sport fish than walleye with the perch and minnows. SMB are easier & more fun to catch esp during bright days. Get your stocker fish from Laggis Fish Farm-Gobbles MI. Top class in your area. As the system matures and minnows are maintaining themselves w/ SMB and perch you can later add as needed a few walleye as bonus fish.

Bill,

Smallmouth are not always a sure thing from Laggis' However he has some nice size walleye in the fall.

Bill,

Smallmouth are not always a sure thing from Laggis' However he has some nice size walleye in the fall.

Thanks Bill, I was thinking golden shiners but would rather have the perch. The discussion seems to indicate great difficulty due to the tendency for perch to over graze and overpopulate. I don't mind the intensive management. When this pond is completed in late summer it will be a sterile sand pit. Adding brush is no problem because we just logged the area two years ago and have plenty of trees available. The SMB dominant/few walleye/perch/fathead situation sounds great to me. Two questions from your post: where can I get the papershell crayfish and what early season submergent would you recommend?

If I understand correctly the order of events sould be 1)finish pond August 03, 2)Fall 03, plant fatheads and crayfish, 3) Spring 04 plant perch and rooted plants 4) will we be ready to plant SMB walleye in Fall 04 or wait for additional perch spawn?

Steve - Since you are building a sand/gravel pit type pond, make some deeper water 15-18' deep if possible. Depths will deter weeds from growing there esp since you will probably have pretty clear water year round. I don't recommend fertilizing in your situation feed the fish instead. Do you have MSU's "Managing MI Ponds for Sportfishing"? Get it at any MSU extension office. Real good booklet.

Golden shiners will be good to use. They will spawn real shallow along the shore and have real good success if the short variety of spike rush (Eleocharis acicularis) is planted along the shoreline. Hatcheries often use spawning mats for golden shiners. Goldens tend to be open water types & quickly grow too big for perch to eat. The largest shiners (6"-8") so far seem to be able to maintain themselves with the SMB in my pond. I do have lots of vegetation also in the pond for very abundant cover which probably makes a big diference for me. NOTE: Golden shiners are "bait stealers" and can be a problem if you fish a lot with live bait. I often harvest bunches with hook (#12or#10)and line for pond stocking. Fun on ultra-light.

In additon to fathead minnows I highly recommend bluntnose minnows who get a little larger 4"-4.5" & are better at escaping perch and light SMB predation. BUT bluntnose spawning is low compared to fatheads. Again lots of cover is key to minnow survival.

Papershell crayfish are available from a grower in NW Ohio near Edgerton (contact me when ready for papershell). Papershell do not crawl out of the pond a make burrows like alot of the stream crayfish species.

In a 1+ acre pond I would consider planting bulrushes as cover and competition to cattails. However bulrush can completely surround a pond if not kept under control. Old stalks would provide some early spring cover. Lots of brush throughout shallow water at one end may be better; at least it won't spread. Lots of brush will guarantee perch hatchings. Small and medium perch go into traps well so you can manually thin lots of them if needed.

I do not have an real good very early spring growing underwater plant for you yet. There are some but they are rampent "weeds" in my opinion. Eel grass may be able to do both jobs for you since last years growth often remains standing in shallow water at ice out. I would try it first and see how well it works in your situation.

Once you have the minnows and perch going strong you will then need to decide if you want a walleye or SMB dominated pond.
Since I think SMB are definately a more "fun" fish in the pond I prefer them. See if you can't get pellet trained perch and SMB from Laggis. He was working on feed training SMB for sale. Feed trained perch he usu. has. SMB in Fall of 04. SMB are very rarely available in the spring; fingerlings always sell out in fall. I would not put any walleye into the pond until your SMB have at least spawned once. Then use walleye as an occasional bonus fish. This will give you some idea of how well the 'minnows' are able to maintain abundance. Keeping minnows, perch and SMB doing well will keep you plenty busy. Walleye when added can help control the SMB & perch numbers and a nice surprise when you catch one occassionally.

Steve,

Chara (aka Muskgrass) is beneficial for Golden Shiner spawning habitat, plus it really helps clear the water. However, it can grow to "weed" proportions in some situations and should only be planted if you are willing to maintain it.

I agree that spike rush, bulrush and eel grass (aka water celery) would be good plants. I'd also consider Arrowhead, Pickerel Weed, Soft Rush, Sweetflag and Blue Flag Iris for a little diversity. Pickerel Weed comes with many of the warnings that Bill gave you about Bulrush, but the others grow in very shallow water and shorelines. They realy help stabilize your banks, which prevents erosion into the pond.

Water Lilies would be beneficial for the fathead minnows because they like to spawn on the underside of objects. However, I'm not sure how well water lilies would do in a gravel pit...probably ok. Does anyone have experience with that? Not too many gravel pit ponds around here.

Some people even put plywood and/or cardboard in the water for the fatheads to spawn on. Please note that cardboard can make a mess, so I wouldn't use that, and plywood will degrade, so it is a temporary spawning medium. Also, if there is no protection around the lilies or plywood, predator fish can simply pick off the minnows as they spawn or hatch. Therefore, it is best to incorporate these methods into the middle of other cover, such as hardwood brush or vegetation.

One final note on your timing...Fatheads won't spawn in the winter, so there is very little benefit stocking them in the fall, and the perch in the spring. If possible, I'd try to get some water into the pond earlier and stock minnows during the summer of 2003. Quite often fatheads are in rough shape during the summer heat, so we stock a "Farm Raised" type from Arkansas during the hottest months. Some people call them Tuffies. If you want some and can't find them in your area, email me and I'll line you up with a bait wholesaler in your area that offers them.

Steve - Added to Mike's suggestions for spawning substrates for fatheads: Anything with flat & smooth to slightly rough surfaces. Slate & clay tile are excellant. A good idea may be to sink into 1ft-3ft of water two wood pallets stacked &/or screwed/tied together. Around & on top of these pallets place dense brush. Brush provides a little cover for hatchling minnows. Several of these devices should provide you with lots of minnows as long as the breeders don't get eaten. I make minnow spawning condominiums from flat pieces of concrete such as broken sidewalk or silo staves. I make long lines of these stacked/layered or stair stepped in shallow water less than 3 ft deep to the surface. The G.shiners will lay their egggs real shallow in grassy areas along shore.
As Mike says not much benefit to putting fatheads into the pond in fall. If you can't get any into the pond before August, it might be better to wait until spring to stock fatheads. This way the pond can develop a large plankton population until the fatheads arrive in spring. If you wait for fish until spring the best ideal thing to stock in the fall would be diverse types of zooplankton and Daphnia. Not many places sell it but I could get you some good ones from local populations. Or with coaching you could collect your own from local lakes. The fatheads in spring are almost always noticably larger than those in sold in fall.

Thanks again Bill & Mike, this is all going into a notebook for later reference. Chara is currently growing (dominant) in my LMB/bluegill pond (75% complete). Also have a 0.5 acre frog pond (3-4 deep) that was completed last June. Insect life in that pond is amazing and I've observed daphnia and other invertebrates but haven't collected any samples. May be able to obtain the soup here. I'm very concerned about getting water from area lakes due to problems with zebra mussels in our area.

Planted lilies/lotus/water celery in the frog pond last year and thought about raising minnows, however, the water temp approached 90 last August and the boatmen and beetles are fierce. When the lotus/lilies mature water temps should be cooler. Looks like everthing is growing well but won't know for sure until May-June.

I'm experimenting with varius wildlife seed mixes that include all the emergent species Mike named. Will probably go heavy with the arrowhead unless told otherwise (ducks). Only the LMB pond will be used for swimming, so maintaining clean banks is not important to me. We have about 2-feet of annual water level fluctuation so should have thickly vegetated margins in future years. We are also adding topsoil to pond margins for increased fertility and will create some black bottomed shallow areas. Since we also use the ponds to train retrievers, I need to be careful to avoid hidden hazards in 0-3'foot depths adjacent to the shoreline. We put several whole trees in the bass pond with roots and all and added several large stumps. Thought of placing several conical limestone rock piles maybe 25-40 feet from the east shore in 4-5 feet of water that come right to the surface. Hoping this will help to buffer my pH (6.5) but haven't done the math.

If the pond is done in August I'll add minnows right away. Area has a high water table and fills overnight. Just need more time and 3-4 clones. Thanks again for your help, can't get enough information at this stage, what a blast.

Steve and others,

You mentioned using "various wildlife seed mixes", are these seed mixes for waterbound plants? If so where do you find such seeds? I have been reading the talk of various pond plant choices but other then going to other ponds to dig them up I haven't a good source for any of them. (Can be bought at some stores in the summer but cost is prohibitive and seeds would be ideal)

Thanks.

Pottsy- I've ordered from JJ Tranzplant in Wild Rose Wisconsin with very good results. They have plugs, tubers, and seed available by specie along with various standard mixtures. Custom mixtures are also available. Some species sell out in the Spring (this is the time to order), while others are always available. If you have questions ask for Jim (owner) who is very knowledgeable and helpful. Here is a link but be sure to request a catalog because all plants are not yet on the website.

J & J Aquatic Nursery

You can also try JF New Nurseries in Walkerton Indiana.

JFNew Nursery

I recommend using plugs or roots for aquatic plantings. The only time we use seeds is on new shorelines, where we rake in the seeds in fresh top soil and cover them with erosion control blanket. Even then, the seeds are liable to be washed out. The plugs and roots grow quickly and can be planted directly in the water, making them a better choice.

Pottsy, you were likely looking at water gardening plants at the store. We sell 2 lines of plants, and the native plugs & roots are a fraction of the cost of the water gardening plants. The difference is basically the amount of vegetation on them, and that a lot of the water gardening plants are fancy varieties that look nice. You do not need or want these in a natural pond, so go with the cheaper ones.

Mike Robinson
Keystone Hatcheries

They were indeed water gardening plants, I haven't found a local source for anything but. (Normally I just dig them up by hand at other locations, but that is time cinsuming and I seldom get what I want... including leech bites). I actually picked up a few water lilies from the store that were not overly pretty, got them for half price since nobody wanted them.

Cheaper is definitly the way I want to go Mike.

I was thinking seeds might be the way to go for me since they are cheaper, I can grow then out before planting them, and they would be less expensive and easier to ship. Then again a good deal on tubers or small plants might be just as good. Seems a long ways off until spring so I guess I have plenty of time to decide.