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#97604 - 09/22/07 01:59 AM Will GSF and CNBG Spawn together left on their own
Bill Webb Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 165
Loc: Emory, Texas
I wish I had known about this forum when I first stocked my pond. I have a lot of GSF from stocking HBG that was recommended by the hatchery I relied for advise. In fact I was led to believe that they would revert back to BG. There were a lot of other wrong things they told me. But the past is the past.

I have an one acre pond. I am going to stock 50 adult CNBG this fall, in the spring will they mix with the GSF? I hope not, but I'd be better off knowing what I am dealing with than not. Draining my pond isn't an option for me. I'd rather just try to manage the problem even if it takes years to get where I want to be. I also have no bass now just some stunted BG, very big fat and happy CC, and lots of really stunted GSF, and thick swarms of FH. The swarms of FH's are probably due to too little for the CC's and too big for the little BG and GSF, and mounds of brush piles and nesting places I have prepared for them and keeping the water fertilized. I also plan on stocking 20 or so 1 lb F-1's this fall and this fall next spring they will probably have plenty of forage, but I need to start thinking now about the second and third year.

So back to my original question. When I stock the CNBG can I count on getting CNBG fry or HBG, or some of each?

Been reading lots of links from here, some very good ones from just general searchs on the internet. I was really surprised how many links from yahoo and google searchs took me back to Pond Boss.

Well I read getting a balance is science and art. I'm trying to learn some of the science instead of blindly taking someones word, learning the art will I guess never end but hopefully I can make some slow results over the next few years.

I had about given up with the results I was getting, including the effects of a three year severe drought I hope we are over. When I found this forum it gave me some motivation to try again.

BTW my goals aren't to produce trophy LMB or BG but good size BG and pan size bass, over 1lb and 3lb or more would be a thrill.

Any comments would help but I especially want to know if my new CNBG will spawn with the GSF. It seems that my next step would be getting a healthy and decent sized BG population. I hope the F-1's will help the CC's to reduce the hundreds or thousands of half dollar size GSF I have.
_________________________
I wish I had the tenacity of GSF!

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#97616 - 09/22/07 07:51 AM Re: Will GSF and CNBG Spawn together left on their own [Re: Bill Webb]
Theo Gallus Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 12463
Loc: Central Ohio
Bill:

First off, HBG cannot really revert back to either GSF or BG over time. Their offspring will always have a mixture of BG and GSF genes. The selective forces controlling the HBG pond may favor either the BG or the GSF genes, so that eventually the Fx (generation "x" of the HBG) offspring more closely resemble BG or GSF (apparently what has happened in your pond), or neither set of traits may be favored in which case most of the surviving Fx may have a noticeable mix of BG & GSF genes.

Think of a gallon of red paint mixed with a gallon of white paint - no matter how you filter, strain, or centrifuge the mixture, it's always going to be pink. Maybe you can get a rather reddish pink or a pink so pale it's close to white, but it's still pink.

Second, the theoretical reassurance. While natural crosses between different species of Lepomis do occasionally occur, they happen quite rarely due to many factors that serve to differentiate between species at spawning time. These include visual clues (different eartabs, for instance), temperature preferences, and (something I don't think about too often) different auditory signals (grunts versus wolf whistles, maybe). These all serve to keep the vast majority of Lepomis matings intra-species, instead of mixed.

Due to the huge fecundity advantage (CN)BG have over HBG (ewest recently cited 50,000 eggs per BG female as opposed to 1,000 per HBG), plus multiple spawns being more likely for BG, on top of the fact that HBG (even Fx) have relatively few females wrt males, if the pond is managed to the (CN)BG's benefit (i.e. a nice, healthy population of bass to eat small sunfish, especially long, easy to swallow ones that are shaped more like GSF), the (CN)BG will greatly outnumber the Fx HBG in a fairly short time. I would guess 2-3 years at most.

Third, the practical reassurance. I built and stocked (in 2003) my first pond BPB (before Pond Boss), with equal numbers of BG and HBG. I have kept a bass-heavy condition since day one and manage for large BG. I have not seen any HBG (or any GSF-like traits on native-born BG) since 2004! My BG have completely overwhelmed the HBG with shear numbers.
_________________________
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling

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#97628 - 09/22/07 08:44 AM Re: Will GSF and CNBG Spawn together left on their own [Re: Theo Gallus]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 14045
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Bill, Theo pretty well nailed it. At one time I was loaded with GSF. Now, I see some but not very many. I have a couple of whoppers that I try not to catch. They are my pets.
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It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP

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#97632 - 09/22/07 09:07 AM Re: Will GSF and CNBG Spawn together left on their own [Re: Dave Davidson1]
ewest Offline
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Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19968
Loc: Miss.
Bill welcome and glad to have you here. Theo and Dave answered your question. Add some adult CNBG as you planned and then a few more next year, over time that will work. You may need to reduce the # of small GSF/HBG by either the LMB eating them or trap or seine as they will eat way to many of your CNBG offspring.

You will learn the art of it as well if you keep at it for a couple years. Experience is a great teacher and there is a lot of it here.
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#97645 - 09/22/07 12:04 PM Re: Will GSF and CNBG Spawn together left on their [Re: Theo Gallus]
jeffhasapond Offline
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Registered: 07/28/06
Posts: 7613
Loc: Pond in No CA, Me in So CA
 Originally Posted By: Theo Gallus
Bill:

Think of a gallon of red paint mixed with a gallon of white paint - no matter how you filter, strain, or centrifuge the mixture, it's always going to be pink. Maybe you can get a rather reddish pink or a pink so pale it's close to white, but it's still pink.


This is what I like, so easy even a bean counter can understand it. Thanks Theo!
_________________________
JHAP
~~~~~~~~~~

"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)

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#97649 - 09/22/07 01:34 PM Re: Will GSF and CNBG Spawn together left on their [Re: jeffhasapond]
Bill Webb Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 165
Loc: Emory, Texas
Thanks everyone what you said was real reassuring to me. As I said I am scheduled to pick up 20 1 lb + F-1's Oct. 6 along with 50 6"+ CNBG but I think I have changed my mind, I am going to get 75 6"+ CNBG and need to email Overton's about the change.

I have tried to seine the GSF and they are almost a consistent size, about the size of a silver dollar not counting fins that would overhang the silver dollar. I let them die then throw them back in the next day for fish food. I only have two places each about 75 feet long that I can seine because in most of the pond it is too steep a drop off there another place about a 125 feet but I have so much brush extending from shallow out into deep water I couldn't seine there. So the of the two places I could seine I am two lazy to walk to one plus the brushy place attaches to the too lazy to walk to place, and there are holes in the brush and those two places that are connected is where I am going to put pea gravel nest sites plus in some flat ledges here and there where around them there are steep drop off's, in fact that is my project today.

Anyway it does't make any difference. I can seine the one place and get about 15 to 25 GSF (the size of a silver dollar, sometimes a few 4 or 5 inch what looks like BG BG's and thousands of FH's) in 15 or twenty minuets. I can do this day after day. I might have to wait 10 mins or so to let the ones I didn't get come back since I going back and forth over the same place, but I could do it all day. I don't think I could ever make a dent by seining. But they seem to be a nice bite size for for one pound + large mouths. Any way I think there should be at least 200 plus pounds of them (of course I am guessing) which is enough to grow the F-1's next year, plus I will have a new blue gill crop from the large CNBG's I am stocking and plan to feed them. Incidently, now and then when fishing for CC in a spot where shallows, ledges, channels and drop off's all converge I catch either some of the original HBG's or just big BG's that are 8" or better, but catching them is a rare treat. My son caught a couple about a month ago and threw them back in because he didn't want to clean them and he caught them while trying for CC.

And Jeff, lol, I am a CPA, and "bean counters understand lots of things we pull our hair trying to explain to non-bean counters ~smiles~! But this is different! But lots more fun than accounting! It helps having a place to get information and I see that this is going to be a never ending thing, next year I will be worring about if there is enough forage for the bass, and if I have any bass fry I need to worry about having enough forage for in the future. I am looking forward to that problem!

I am already wondering should I take out any of the 20 F-1's I am stocking this fall next year or leave them alone.

Also, are the F-1's a true breed. For example some mixed cattle are just mixes that will have calves that might have charteristics of their parents or parents parents. But sometimes a new breed is formed and the offspring will continue the charateristics of the new breed and not revert back. What will happen to my F-1 offspring?

I realize it is time consuming to post these replies and you all don't how much I appreciate your comments.

Bill
_________________________
I wish I had the tenacity of GSF!

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#97651 - 09/22/07 02:14 PM Re: Will GSF and CNBG Spawn together left on their [Re: Bill Webb]
Theo Gallus Offline
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 12463
Loc: Central Ohio
F1's are Florida-Northern LMB hybrids. It's kind of that 2 gallons of pink paint situation again. Anyway, the LMB Fx's that you will start having next year will have various mixtures of Northern & Florida traits; the ones with gene mixes that work best for your pond and how you manage it will flourish the most.

Some people who concentrate on bass management stock pure Northerns and Floridas either along with the F1s or in subsequent years to be assured that the mixture of the two gene pools continues to exist in their ponds.
_________________________
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling

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#97654 - 09/22/07 02:29 PM Re: Will GSF and CNBG Spawn together left on their [Re: Bill Webb]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19968
Loc: Miss.
Bill the F-1s will do fine. They are not like HBG with skewed reproduction or outbreeding depression. I have not seen any info or studies that indicate that genetic problems arise down the road. In fact F-1s aka intergrades occur naturally in the zone where Flas and Northerns overlap. It is not the same as mixing 2 clearly different species like GSF and BG to get HBG but is 2 strains of the same species.

As to the question of taking out some of the F-1s I would suggest you watch the BG/GSF/HBG populations as that will tell you if you need to remove LMB.
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#97657 - 09/22/07 03:11 PM Re: Will GSF and CNBG Spawn together left on their [Re: ewest]
Bill Cody Offline
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Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12944
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Your goals for the pond are very realistic and very obtainable. The bass that you get from Overton should spawn in spring of 2008 to produce young bass to eat lots of the new reproduction from the FHM, GSF, BG and any HYBG that may reproduce. Since you have an abundance of forage fish for 11"-12" bass these bass should grow very rapidly in their first year in your pond to produce bass in the fall of 2008 that range from just a few at 14"-15 to most 16"+ to maybe a few 18".

You have gotten very good advice about the spawning of GSF and CNBG. Generally, which is 99% of the time, the GSF and CNBG will not cross. Most natural crosses in nature occur when in crowded nesting conditions sperm of the male drifts into a neighboring nest of a differrent species during sametime spawning.

As mentioned, you shouldn't have a long term problem with GSF because LMB (10"-14"), which should be abundant in your pond due to your goals, will generally target GSF first as forge items. The LMB larger than 16" often will preferably prey on largest GSF and med large BG. Your goals for the majority of the bass population in your pond to be 2-3 lb will optimize selection of GSF to keep those to a minimum. Manage your pond this way and you should see very few GSF in years 2010 and beyond. The ones you do see should be large (7"-9").


Edited by Bill Cody (09/22/07 03:16 PM)
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#97666 - 09/22/07 06:53 PM Re: Will GSF and CNBG Spawn together left on their [Re: Bill Cody]
Bill Webb Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 165
Loc: Emory, Texas
Thanks Bill and everyone else on taking the time to comment.

I did a little seining today and the same 15 mins for 15 very small GSF and lots of FHM's. This time instead throwing them out I let them go for the future bass.

I wish I could have found just "northern" strain bass. But Florida strain is in vogue now. I never considered them to be "northern" because I never lived in the north. But I didn't live in the sub-tropics either. I caught nice, not like the Florida's while growing up in ponds, creeks, lakes, and even rivers. And a 7 or 8 pound bass was a real good bass. A 3 lb bass was a good bass.

When I was building this pond I was told flat blank it wasn't big enough for bass but I had caught a lot of bass in smaller waters. I live as the crow flies about a mile from Lake Fork's back waters and my ponds over flow goes into a creek that goes into Lake Fork. Too much hassle for me even though I have a boat that was working fine 5 years ago when I parked it. Even when I did use the boat I drove to Tawakoni and fished humps with slabs for sand bass. When I was young I loved fishing for LMB but I am lazier now in my old age.

So if I could have found them for sale I probably in a pond my size been better off getting the "northern" ones. Although I just always considered them the natives to our region. In the north LMB never got as big as our natives did anyway. But they have their own species we don't have that like the cooler waters.

If I wanted to catch something that weight 15 or 20 pounds I'd drive to the gulf and go snapper fishing. And in a day or two in a party boat have a years supply :/.

At this stage I just want some lazy walk out 50 yards out my front door and have some fun casting and when I do catch something it is big enough to eat ( and I don't have to feel guilty for eating it.

P.S. I hate cc. Don't like cleaning including filleting them or the taste. But I sure got some big ones and can't talk anyone into fishing for them except for my son and then he is too lazy to clean them and lets them go.

I need BG and what most now would call small bass couple or three pounds!

Thanks everyone again I feel I am finally on my way.

Thanks again,

Bill


Edited by Bill Webb (09/22/07 07:44 PM)
_________________________
I wish I had the tenacity of GSF!

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#97677 - 09/22/07 09:07 PM Re: Will GSF and CNBG Spawn together left on their [Re: Bill Webb]
george1 Offline
Lunker

Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 3794
Loc: Plano Texas
Bill, the suppliers in your area wil have native LMB, sometimes called "northern" bass on the forum..
You have a choice of Natives, Floridas or F-1's.
Good luck and welcome to the forum.
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N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds
Original george #173 (22 June 2002)





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#97683 - 09/22/07 09:58 PM Re: Will GSF and CNBG Spawn together left on their [Re: george1]
Bill Cody Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12944
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Since you have the LMbass ordered from Overton use them. They will grow exceptionally well in your forage rich pond. At some point in the future (5-8yrs) I see no problem of your adding some "regular" 8"-10" LMB and this will dilute the genetic stock of the F1 population and maybe help the overall bass population in your pond. Others with some experience with diluted F1 genetics bass could provide some beneficial advice at this point.

Please come back at least once a year to this thread topic and advise us about the growth rate of your LMbass and about the numbers and sizes of your of GSF, hybrid bgill and how the CNBG are developing. I am very interested in the progress of the fishery of your pond.


Edited by Bill Cody (09/22/07 10:00 PM)
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Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management

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#97684 - 09/22/07 10:00 PM Re: Will GSF and CNBG Spawn together left on their [Re: george1]
Bill Webb Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 165
Loc: Emory, Texas
Well there are probably suppliers I don't know about, but Dunn's and Overton's only advertise Florida and F-1's. And those are the only ones I know about.

Overton's have the size I want this fall and I have took a lot of Todd's time and would hate to cancel now. Especially since I started talking to him about it late last summer but put if off because the water level was still real low last fall. He has been real nice and spent a lot of time with me for such a relatively small sale to him.

I'm sure I will be okay. I just think I will never in my pond have the size bass that even the northern's are capable of, much less the Florida's, which is fine.

But who knows, being an old ranch boy mixed breed stockers are usually more hardy than pure breds, so it might be better anyway. This is all an experiment.

And I am close to Lake Fork, and have water birds from there visiting my place with whatever they bring with them.

When my pond first filled it was murky. I went to Lake Fork got four buckets of water plus some mud and live and dead plant material off the bottom and in two weeks my water looked like Lake Fork water, and still does. I did the same with a gold fish pond I built before the pond. The water was cloudy so I threw in a bucket of Lake Fork Water and over night it changed. The pond just took a little longer. Free fast microbes.

And I will Bill. I am sure I will have observations and questions way before a year is up.

I have been writing a lot, but I have been reading even more. I love this site.


Edited by Bill Webb (09/22/07 10:08 PM)
_________________________
I wish I had the tenacity of GSF!

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#97685 - 09/22/07 10:07 PM Re: Will GSF and CNBG Spawn together left on their [Re: Bill Webb]
Bill Cody Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12944
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Bill be sure to see my post directly above your last post( 10:00pm).

Bill says: "I went to Lake Fork got four buckets of water plus some mud and live and dead plant material off the bottom and in two weeks my water looked like Lake Fork water, and still does."

This practice in theory makes sense and can be beneficial for some ponds. However if one manages to get a few cells of a toxic or nuisance planktonic algae or resting sprore in the the water or sediment, the practice may produce long lasting headaches for ones pond. Since I spend my working hours microscopically examining samples from natural waters, I don't recommend this practice unless you know what is in the water you are dumping into your pond.


Edited by Bill Cody (09/22/07 10:09 PM)
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Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
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#97688 - 09/22/07 10:24 PM Re: Will GSF and CNBG Spawn together left on their [Re: Bill Cody]
Bill Webb Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 165
Loc: Emory, Texas
Well that was in the spring of 2000, and never had a problem with the gold fish pond about three years before that or the real pond. I see what you mean though now you mention it. I guess I was lucky it worked out and haven't needed to do it since.

I got the idea out of a book on landscaping with native Texas plants in the pond and bog section. Since it worked so well with the gold fish pond I figured it would work on the regular pond, and it did, just had more reproduction time before the water color changed. But I was eager to stock it and didn't want to stock in a sterile enviroment or fertilize before plankton either floated in by air or was poured in by me.

I have to admit too, I do have vegetation and want it. To me the pond has always been more than just producing fish, in fact that is probably secondary to me. I like my own little ecosystem. The only problem I ever had was with water primrose once and I just waded around and gathered it and threw on places where plants still weren't growing on the edge of the pond.

The one thing I would like to get rid of is willows or at least thin them.......don't try to help me on that. I know what I need to do, but it is going to be a lot of work before I can even apply chemicals on them. The pond was excuvated out of a natural draw, or bog most of the year and there were already huge willows everywhere, now even more.
_________________________
I wish I had the tenacity of GSF!

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#97720 - 09/23/07 11:52 AM Re: Will GSF and CNBG Spawn together left on their [Re: Bill Webb]
jeffhasapond Offline
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Field Correspondent
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/06
Posts: 7613
Loc: Pond in No CA, Me in So CA
 Originally Posted By: Bill Webb
And Jeff, lol, I am a CPA, and "bean counters understand lots of things we pull our hair trying to explain to non-bean counters ~smiles~! But this is different! But lots more fun than accounting! It helps having a place to get information and I see that this is going to be a never ending thing, next year I will be worring about if there is enough forage for the bass, and if I have any bass fry I need to worry about having enough forage for in the future. I am looking forward to that problem!


I know what you mean Bill. One of the things I love about the pond is having to solve problems that are so different that what we do every day. Plus you meet such great people here from all walks of life with all different types of life experiences. I can't wait to actually meet some of these folks at the Pond Boss conference. I gotta warn you though it's real tough being a stoic and reserved CPA on this forums with all these characters that clown around all the time, it's something you're just gonna have to get used to.
_________________________
JHAP
~~~~~~~~~~

"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)

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#97735 - 09/23/07 04:33 PM Re: Will GSF and CNBG Spawn together left on their [Re: jeffhasapond]
Bill Webb Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 165
Loc: Emory, Texas
Jeff I only act stoic and reserved when working and then not with people I know. With a lot of my clients it's more like shut and listen damn it!

Oh well.

Are you a wild acting geologist? You do have a twiching stick. But I like the GSA.

\:\)
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