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Original quote "this really got my squirrel cage a turnin'. I second that! I just read this thread completely thru and I am still not sure what to go with. I am going to post some questions tommorrow about this, for now I've run out of time. Too many options. I hope Asleep at the Wheel is still around to advise & inform.



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I have been living with my WaterFurnace for 2 months now. The meter reader couldn't get in my gate last month, so I will be able to give you some utility costs in a couple of weeks. Here is what I do know...I am cooling about 4500 sq.ft. with lots of windows and doors with a 6 ton unit. It has been 100+ degrees here for the last two weeks, and I can make it as cool as I want inside.

My house is about 220' from the 6 acre pond, and I am running a closed loop. There is 3000' of 1 1/2" plastic pipe coiled up on the bottom of the pond. The coils are tied up on a "sled" about 8'x14' that the guy floated out and sunk. I have two tiny little pumps, no bigger than your fist, that circulate the water through the loop. The system cost, including ductwork and everything was a shade over $20k. I'll let you know if it was worth it when I get the bill, but so far I am very happy with the system.


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Jersey why did you decide on the closed loop system verses the pump and dump? I saw in an earlier post you ask about pump and dump using the pond itself was this an option? I don't currently have a well I'm on rural water coop so that is why I started considering the closed loop pond system to begin with and my pond is only about 15 ft from my door step. Your input would be greatly appreciated sense you've been there and done it already. Also tech questions. How big is the inside unit, will it fit in the same foot print as a conventional vertical airmover unit? What routes indoors to the unit itself? The poly pipe? I do not have a basement it will have to go up stairs on the second floor.



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Rockytopper,
I went with the closed loop for several reasons.
1) I don't want to pump silt or fish into the system.
2) I don't want to take care of a filter
3) It uses a much smaller pump than an open loop would require
4) My HVAC man told me to.

The unit is no bigger than a standard furnace, and there is no outside unit at all. The supply and return tubes are about 1 1/4" and run from the indoor unit to the pond. Again, there is a 3000' loop on a 8'x14' frame in the pond. The 3000' loop is actually six 500' loops in parallel. My tubes go from the unit, up and across the basement ceiling to the other end of the house, out the wall and down the side of the house, and underground to the pond.

The red tubes carry domestic water through the "superdeheater". Yep, that's right. A superdeheater. It catches the heat that would otherwise be wasted, and circulates it through my water heater. It makes enough hot water for my whole family of four. I have my two 80 gallon water heater circuit breakers turned off, and we have plenty of hot water. 160 gallons of it to be exact. The heat is taken from the hot side of the compressor. I have radiant heat in my kitchen and master bath floors. This winter, I am counting on this superdeheater to warm these floors.

Sorry for the quality of the pictures. The two white things are the loop pumps. One pushes and one pulls. They are about the size of your fist.

Since I don't know what my power bill will be yet, I have to say the thing that impresses me the most about it so far is that it can cool this 4100 sq.ft., half of which has 20' ceilings, so well. It acts like it is bigger than 6 tons. The blower in it uses a DC motor with 12 speeds. It ramps the speed up and down depending on how many and which zones are calling for cool. Pretty neat.

I would tell anyone that asks, if you are going to stay in your house for a while, and you can spring for the initial cost, then get a WaterFurnace. I figured to break even on it in 5 years, but I didn't even count the free hot water. It is a very well built machine.






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Very nice report, Jersey.


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Jersey,

Thanks for the details on your Geo system, that's next on our "major improvements" list. How deep do the pond loops need to be?

Thanks,
Chip


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I think that depends on a lot of things. How big is your pond, how much flow goes through the pond, how big is the geo system, stuff like that. My loop is about 5 feet to the top, 7 feet to the bottom.


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Thanks Jersey you've sold me and answered a lot of questions. Sorry for the late thank you but the system has been to slow lately.



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My neighbor has the same 6 ton unit I have, plus a 3 ton unit. His loop is buried horizontally in the yard, not in the pond. His house is about the size of mine, but I think he cools more of it. He told me yesterday that the highest electric bill he has had this summer is $215. He keeps the t'stat at 77 all the time.


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My pond water temperature is 97 degrees. I do not know if this is too warm for the cooling cycle? I have thought of dumping into another shallow water if the pond is too full to handle the geothermal discharge. I would rather use the Slim Jim and the wmall water pump. I have not read any thing on this. I did talk to another person in the hot south that used the slim jim and made out very good, but I think the little pump would need to run for a very long time. Any thoughts on this topic? My house is 2000 sq. ft.


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I wish to change my previous statement that I wish I had put in an open loop system. No maintenance of the closed loop is a better deal IMO. Against the GT mfg. recommendations I have installed bottom diffuser aeration and my bill has only increased about $30 running the aerator 24/7. This is about what I expected to run the compressor. If I want to fill the pond I could always put in a well and fill it, no reason to spend the money to pump groundwater in years when it's not needed. My system on a new build only cost about $1100 more than a conventional heatpump/electric system.




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Ryan - Are able to measure the bottom water temperature near the loop in your pond?.


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Deaner,
The way I figure it, it is still easier to dump heat into 97 degree water than it is 97 degree air as a conventional system does. My installer said he had seen problems with the Slim Jim not transferring heat as well as it should. And they certainly are expensive.


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Bill, my thermometer only has a 4' lead and I'll need to get the boat out to get out that far but I'll see what I can come up with. Maybe I'll be able to get some underwater video at the same time. I've been curious about the bottom temp as well but the Vertex with two lift stations is probably turning quite a bit of water in my now <half acre pond.




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 Quote:
Alcoa Signs Agreement to Support Geothermal Power Research Project in Iceland

Success of Project Could Yield Abundant, Clean, Naturally Renewable Energy Worldwide

NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Alcoa announced today that it has made a significant contribution to a research and development program in Iceland that if successful could lead to a major step forward in the economics of developing high-temperature geothermal resources worldwide.

Geothermal energy is derived from underground water heated naturally by contact or close proximity to molten rock, deep beneath the earth’s surface.

Supported by Alcoa, the Iceland Deep Drilling Project (IDDP) consortium will collaborate on a deep drilling pilot project which will investigate the economic feasibility of producing energy and useful chemicals from geothermal systems at what are known as “supercritical conditions”. Essentially, these are natural systems where underground water becomes super-heated by close proximity to almost molten rocks.

Supercritical (high-temperature) geothermal systems could potentially produce up to ten times more electricity than the geothermal wells typically in service around the world today.

In signing the agreement with the research consortium, Bernt Reitan, Alcoa Executive Vice President, said, “We are drilling towards the future. Geothermal energy is exactly what the world needs to tap into almost limitless, clean, natural energy and to substantially reduce greenhouse emissions.

For Alcoa’s part, if we could connect supercritical geothermal energy to our world class aluminum smelting expertise, and the metal’s unrivaled ability to reduce greenhouse gas emissions generated by such things as transportation, then we are really beginning to make a difference that will be beneficial all over the world.

The technology we hope to develop in Iceland should be applicable where ever there is high temperature geothermal potential,” he said.

The IDDP consortium is composed of three leading Icelandic power companies: Hitaveita Sudurnesja Ltd.; Landsvirkjun; and Orkuveita Reykjavikur; together with Orkustofnun (National Energy Authority) and Alcoa.

To produce energy from supercritical fluids, requires drilling to depths of 4 to 5 km (13,000-16,000 ft) in order to reach fluid temperatures of 400–600°C. (750-1100°F). Today, typical geothermal wells are about 2 km deep, (8,000 ft), produce steam at about 300°C, (570°F) -- a rate sufficient to generate about 5 megawatts of electricity. It is estimated that producing steam from a well penetrating a reservoir at or above 450°C (840°F) temperature and at a rate of 0.67 cubic meters (24 cubic feet) a second, could generate 40-50 megawatts of electricity.

Each of the power companies, which financed the pre-feasibility study completed in 2003, have committed to drill at their own costs one 3.5-4.0 km deep well in a geothermal field they operate. These wells will be designed for deepening to 4.5-5.0 km. One of the wells selected for further deepening is a joint IDDP-project funded by the consortium with additional funds from the International Continental Scientific Drilling Program, an international foundation based in Germany that supports drilling on land for scientific research, as well as the U.S. National Science Foundation.

The first wells will be drilled in 2008 at Krafla in north-east Iceland and tested the following year. Two new wells, 4 km deep, will then be drilled at Hengill and Reykjanes geothermal fields during 2009-2010, and, subsequently, deepened. Pilot plant testing is expected to be completed in 2015.



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Hi all...
Wondering what advice I need to hear about my geothermal project.
Our home is aprx 3400 sq.ft (livable space). The geothermal rep. talks about an 8 ton unit. He says a 4 ton unit will work but it will need to draw more emergency (electric) heat than the 8 ton unit and so recommended the larger size. He says it will be about 400% efficient. Sound right?

- The original portion of the house is an older two story farm house with an addition of 15'X30' and an addtion of 30'X40' [there is also a 16'X14' 4-season room which is currently coooled/heated when needed by a 'hotel' type unit].
- Planning an open pump and dump system into a farm pond 1/4-1/2 acre)
- The existing water pump is 1/2 horse -- they talk about upgrading to a 1 1/2 horse variable speed pump with a small water tank bladder... Is it useful to also have a seperate water tank? to reduce wear and tear on pump? to save money?

Thanks for any input!

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Other points of concern:
I understand I need to aerate the water before it dumps into the pond... but how to do this? Since the pipe carrying the water will need to be above ground before it exits into the pond (so it aerates) how does this keep from freezing?

Is it possible to have the pipe bend upward through a pile of dirt and rocks so it then runs down the rock into the pond?... thus making a waterfall. Or will this cause a freezing risk during times the geo unit may not be running? In IA water CAN freeze very quickly.
If I'm not being clear let me know!
Thanks!

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Chris4:

Perhaps two different outlet methods, depending on the season, could be used. Aeration is not nearly as critical in the Winter - cold fish use less O2, while cold water holds more of it in solution. So in the Winter use a straight dump that is 100% freeze-proof.

When the weather is warm enough, aerate the water before releasing it into the pond. Yes, dropping it over/through a pile of rocks would help aerate it. Check out Cecil Baird's "Packed Column" well water aerator here. Dropping it like a waterfall through a rock pile might not be quite as efficient, but would be more aesthetically pleasing if you are not as keen on 5 gallon buckets as I am.

Ejecting the water through a "sweeper nozzle" juts below water level could also be used, perhaps in colder weather than a rockpile drop. These would produce Bruce Condello-style "horizontal aeration" - somebody (maybe me later) can link to that thread for an explanation.


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"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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You're looking at a lot of potential maintenance down the road with a pump and dump system. I think the closed loop system with the exchanger coils sunk in the pond is by far the better and less expensive choice.




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 Originally Posted By: Ryan Freeze
You're looking at a lot of potential maintenance down the road with a pump and dump system. I think the closed loop system with the exchanger coils sunk in the pond is by far the better and less expensive choice.


Sure there may be a filter to clean (my geo guy says that this is not too often). The closed loop is not as efficient, has its own concern that it could get buried in the pond, and has more up front cost involved (not as much as burying the loops but still more cost). Plus... I don't know whether a pond is feasible without a pump/dump from the geo unit.

What maintenance are you speaking of?

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Just installed a split zone WaterFurnace last Fall, one 6 ton and one 4 ton for almost 5000 sq ft. Open loop saved me $9000 over closed loop option (earth bury). I can replace alot of pumps and filters for that, plus open loop is more efficient. Ruled out sinking exchangers into pond because there is a chance of supercooling. Heard all the arguments for and against. I chose not to gamble with my fish.

Geothermal was the best decision that I made while building this house, hands down. I'm total electric, it's one of those houses when you turn one light on... You've just turned on 20! Aerators 24/7, home theatre 10/7 (unfortunately), but I haven't seen a bill for over $200 yet. I take that back, when it was first installed they installed the dump line below the water surface and it froze. The heating bill on a month of emergency electric default was $1000! Quickly rectified.

Pond has been at full pool all Summer. I could go on but I am sure you get the picture. Good luck Chris4, Geo's the way to go!



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I also went thru all the whys of geothermo and after much research both here and elsewhere, meeting with several installers, I went with the closed loop in the pond. No regrets.
5 ton unit for 2500 sf living area. Works great. Still newish and watching my electric (which like all else has gone up with the economy the way it is). Looks like I'm running about $30-$40 more a month electric but compared to the LP costs--this is a HUGE savings for me. Payback is 5 years. After research you will learn that components between top notch brand and competitors are not much different, you really need to look at the overall warranty and choose an installer that will be there when you do require maintenance. Our installer was SO knowledgeable and not a hard-sell salesman top--he impressed us tremendously and was a BIG factor in our choice along with the fact that they had done a lot of geo installation to begin with. Closed loop vs open loop, there are a lot of pros and cons for both, the problem with open loop are the filters, silt etc--one lady in town has that and has nothing but problems. Why did I choose closed loop?? I had a pond, it is more efficient than your other choices, I didn't want to burden my existing well or dig a second well, and I didn't want my yard torn up. But here are some pictures to share for those who are looking into it. You will learn that it won't hurt the fish, that it can be brought to surface really easy (they just withdraw some of the liquid from the lines and it floats back up. The ideas of hooks in such a thick pipe has never happened by our installer in 20 years; if it did, no problem to fix. You need to research, researh, compare, compare, price, price, ask, ask--negotiate. There were incentives by the State here of $400 per ton that I took advantage of, most utility companies have some rebates--mine didn't. Ryan on this thread was of much help to me.








Last edited by Theo Gallus; 08/26/08 01:50 PM. Reason: Stop Brettski from whining



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8 tons? Sounds way too big to me. I have over 4000 sq ft of space and my 6 ton unit is plenty big enough. But I don't have the heating requirements you do. Why not go with a closed loop system and not worry about freezing?


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I have a 5 ton in a 3500 sq. ft. with 32 windows, 5 exterior doors, 2000 sqft basement, on top of a hill in flat country. My electric bill has hovered around $160 the past six months. I installed the bottom diffuser aerator against the my Mfg. recommendations and have seen no unexpected bill increases except for the $30/mo for my aerator that runs 24/7. All I have to worry about is blowing out the reusable air filter every month or so. My geo system only cost $1100 more than a standard Electric furnace and heat pump. A well based pump and dump would have cost more in my case because they would have had to drill larger and deeper well.

As far as effeciency of dump vs. recirc., from what I've read it can go either way by 10% or so depending on air temp, groundwater temp, and how many ft of head you have to pump the water. In a closed loop you're probably looking at running a 1/3 hp recirculator vs. the 1.5 hp well pump, smaller is cheaper to replace if needed. In the past, recirculating components have outlived pump and dump components because of iron and other minerals causing parts to wear out.

A pump and dump system opens you up for more excuses, such as component wear due to water quality issues, for a manufacturer not to warranty their product compared to a sealed system. If you need the water to keep your pond filled then the pump and dump may be your only option obviously because a closed loop in the bottom of a dry pond isn't going to help much.

I've read about people switching from pump and dump to closed loop due to problems but never the other way around.

Supercooling? I have never heard of this actually happening with any residential system.

Dumped heat heats my water. You may have to request that be hooked up.




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