Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Raising Forage and Bait I'm not a (redworm) murderer!

Wow. I was really relieved tonight. I was afraid I'd murdered all my redworms.

Our winter started out very warm -- then it suddenly got very cold, and hardly ever got above freezing from late January thru last week (3rd week of March).

My outdoor worm bin froze completely solid before I could move it into a corner of the barn.

I got some new redworms tonight. Much to my surprise, when I dug down in my bin -- it was full of fat redworms munching on some lettuce we threw on top of the snow and ice two weeks ago.

I'm not sure how they survived being frozen solid, but I'm probably happier than them. They eat virtually all of our kitchen scraps, they make great BG bait, and their castings make great fertilizer.

I caught at least 50% of the eight species of fish for my PBoss sampling study by using redworms. They are an excellent live bait when using hooks with a small gape such as No 8, 10, 12, and 14.

At least you wouldn't have had to bury them if they died.

It's good to know that your worms survived so that you can impale them on a hook in the hopes that a fish will swallow them. YOU WORM TORTURER YOU!

Just kidding of course, I just found the irony rather funny. I worry about the BG that I bought because I want to make sure that enough of them survive in order to make forage base for the bass to eat.

This pond meistering is a rather strange business.

store bought (euro) crawlers VS locally dug redworms?

interesting to note a recent observation i had.....i've been digging redworms on the property while soil is still wet, and they are near the top layer. been using them for BG treats and to "sample" my fish. i had a couple leftover store bought european nightcrawlers and used these also........no contest........given a choice, the fish love the redworms.

Using the famous Bill Cody Sampling Technique #1*, we successfully sampled some great fried fish this evening. So far, not a bit of remorse was felt over being near the top of the food chain.


*Bill Cody Technique 1 -- just a chair and worms. I couldn't try Technique 2 -- I unfortunately don't have a Pond Yacht like Bill's. (Bill - you need to post the architectural plans for your yacht!)

It is good to know the sampling technique also works in WV. I have used the method in lots and lots of ponds. It will be the unusual situation where the method fails.

catmandoo-
How did you establish your redworms? What works best to house them? Materials, size, etc. Do they eat some types of scraps better than others? I hope to dublicate what you're doing...it sounds like a lot of fun.

Worms are real easy to raise.

Worm House. My present bin came from Wal-Mart or K-Mart about 10 years ago. It cost about $7. As you can see in the photo, I drilled a series of half-inch holes around the outside. I also put about 5-10 holes in the bottom. These provide air and drainage. The worms are basically happy, and few decide to escape through the holes.

Establishing. I am about to completely clean out my present bin and start over. I do this a couple of times per year. When I do, I'll shred about five or six newspapers -- enough to fill 1/2 to 3/4 of the bin. Knowledgeable sources say to only use black and white, as the color inks can be poisonous. I have a small office shredder, but you could easily rip them by hand into small strips.

I will then put a couple of shovel fulls of garden dirt on top of the newspaper, and thoroughly soak it down with a hose. I'll let it drain for at least a day. Then I'll mix it all together.

Worms. In my case, I'll use my present worms -- more on that below. But, whenever I've had to start over, I just go to the local 7-11 or Wal-Mart and buy two or three containers of red wigglers. Around here, they typically package 30 to 36 in a container for $2-$3.

Adult worms, or "breeders" reproduce like crazy. In about a month, you will find many hundreds of small worms. They will grow fast, and turn into many many more hundreds -- plus the originals will keep breeding and getting even fatter. They'll grow to about half the size of a night crawler. If you start now, you'll be able to pick more worms than you can use by mid-June.

You can use most any kind of manure worm, but the red wigglers sold in bait stores have been bred just for this purpose. They are extremely hardy. Our bin has always been in a shady spot, and we've never lost ours to summer heat. Obviously they seem to know how to survive freezing too -- I just don't know how.

Food. We feed ours most of our vegetable and fruit scraps from the kitchen. This includes potato peels, banana peels, coffee grounds, tea bags, apple cores, old lettuce, etc. We give them all our egg shells. We DON'T give them any citrus (orange peels, grapefruit rind, etc), as the acid is supposedly harmful to them.

We have a mulch bucket that holds about a gallon of scraps. They get a bucket full once or twice a week. They make a bucketful completely unrecognizable in less than a week. I usually mix it into the top several inches.

Harvesting and Reconditioning. For fishing, you can obviously just go grab a handful when needed. But, they will need to be cleaned out now and then.

They hate light. An easy way to harvest lots of them is to get a board, a 5-gallon bucket, and a container for the worms. Put the board half-way over the bucket. Dig out a big scoop full of worms and castings from your worm bin. Put it on the board. Pile it like a pyramid. The worms will go down to get away from the light. Knock of the top and edges into the bucket. Pile it up again. Keep doing this until most of the dirt is in the bucket, and the board has most of the worms.

The "castings" make great fertilizer. Lots of excess worms make for great bluegill and catfish feedings.

Good luck.
Ken

P.S. Right after I posted this, I noticed there was another set of active postings with lots of good information about raising worms: Raising European Night Crawlers

Looks great Catman, I'm off to Wally World for a container.

Good post Catman!!

Great post catmandoo. When you say about half the size of night crawlers, it makes me think that you have european night crawlers as I think red worms are much smaller. Does anyone know the distinction better than I?

We have red worms but I've never liked them for bait. I have always thought that if a fish (bluegill) wasn't big enough to take a 1 1/2 to 2 inch minnow, that I didn't want to fool with it. For sampling little fish, red worms would be fine, I guess.

Thanks for the tips, Catmandoo.

Norm,

You certainly could be right. I looked at the cartons that the latest batch came in -- they only say "30 Fishing Worms."

The "commercial" worms I've had for the last couple of years seem to be bigger than the redworms of yesteryear. I just thought it was the better food and mountain relaxation of being in West Virginia vs. Virginia.

For many years I just used manure worms from around the chicken coop, or out of the puddles after a spring rain. They just weren't as prolific, and they would die out in the summer heat.

Last year's batch of worms would start to turn a reddish-yellow color as they got really fat. I'd guess the biggest ones were 4-5 inches long, and 3/16-inch at the fattest. The smaller ones had a rather hard skin. As they got bigger and fatter, they oozed a somewhat disgusting fluid when I put them on a hook -- think of what a 3-inch mealy worm might be like.

Right now, I don't have any of the really fat ones. Looking at photos on the Internet, I can't tell a difference between the European night crawlers and red wigglers. In the photos they all look identical!

Once they start really growing, I'll get post some photos.

I still always keep a crate full of regular night crawlers in my beer refrigerator. They are still the best bait -- they just don't eat my garbage.

Good fishn'
Ken

Red Wigglers (manure worms) will eat the scraps and shredded paper much faster than the night crawlers. The night crawlers like to go deeper (3 ft) on occasion and would probably leave a shallow container. If the red wigglers are happy and fed right with the correct soil moisture they will get big and fat and tend to loose some of that dark red color and as catmandoo said, and turn more yellow on their bellies.

I have my worms in an old water tank. I mix in table scraps, green cuttings and manure from my neighbors horses and chickens. A few citrus peels wont hurt but dont over do it. Crushed egg shells keep your pH in check as well. Avoid any meats. Covers on top with aeration on the sides keeps flies and pests out of your bins.

They will die if you dont feed them or change or at least dilute the castings in the soil. If you add the shredded paper as mentioned 2-3 times a year you will have no problems. The castings are better than any commercial fertilizer made and it is not "Hot".

I'll vouch for the Red Wigglers as well. Left sweltering Bakersfield, CA for a 6 week vacation. Returned, added water to the worm box, started to add some fresh worms, but the box was loaded with little Red Wigglers!

Catmandoo,
How often do you have to clean out the old castings and put in new dirt? It's amazing that this little bin full of worms can consume a gallon of kitchen scraps a week!

Jersey,

Here is what we put in about twice a week. We put in all the non-meat food scraps from the kitchen.



This is about a handful turned over from the top couple of inches of my worm box. Currently there are thousands of worms in the bin, ranging from real small to somewhat bigger than those shown here. Many of the big ones get chosen as my fishing buddies.




The last time I put in scraps was 4 days ago. Except for a few scraps of corn husks, nothing much else is recognizable. The bucketful above will be unrecognizable in 3-4 days.

I filled a five gallon bucket with castings in about mid-June. I've also taken out several large cans of castings and worms that I've put into some big leaf piles I have. It is again about time to take out another five gallon bucket of castings. I take out about the bottom 4-5 inches from the bin, and it is very black and dense.

I no longer try to get all the worms out from the castings I remove. It is just too much work, and the worms grow back really fast. I just keep the biggest ones.

This time of year I add a small shovel full of dirt to give the worms a little grit after I remove the five gallons of castings.

What I'm amazed at is how the worms thrive whether the weather is 45 or 95 degrees. There are days I'll forget a small can of worms (half full of the castings) on the dock. I'll go back the next day, and they'll still be just as healthy after sitting in the sun for several hours.

I get all the fishing worms I need for the grandkids and me.

Good fishn'
Ken

Well done, Cat.
Moderators; maybe this should be archived...?

When I got home tonight, I wasn't sure what my worms were so excited about. But, they wanted me to let Brettski and the moderators know that they are supremely honored to be in the world famous Pond Boss Archives. They said they felt like Archie Bunker when his chair was put on display at the Smithsonian.

Oh sure Catmandoo:

(1) hears his worms speaking to him

and

(2) Understands them (Wormglish, Wormbonics?)

And I'm the one that gets called crazy??

All kidding aside great write up Ken!

Just a Spring 08 update.

This past winter I intentionally left my worm bin outside, mostly full of worms. It was frozen solid from before Christmas until about two weeks ago. I went out in tonight's relatively warm weather to check on them. I had also put a shovel full of worms into my compost bin from the worm bin. Both bins are full of fat lively and feisty worms.

I don't know how the worms do it. Whenever I've accidentally frozen a carton of commercial worms, they turn to a smelly soupy mess when thawed.

Oh well, I was just happy to see them eating my garbage.

Cat, I am convinced that "natural" worms are hardier and will keep longer than "treated" worms. Maybe it's something to do with damage to the mucous coating.

I know dug worms will last over a week in the fridge; storm-drenched worms I collect off the porch at out horse barn (although very active when collected) turn to smelly slush in 2-3 days in the same fridge.

I could be wrong, but I don't think those are Redworms nor European Nightcrawlers.

European Nightcrawlers


Redworms



Thoughts?

Weissguy, I nominate you for the best avatar on your signature line. It's awesome.

Bruce -

Well thank you! I just "did it up" this evening.

How difficult was it? How much would it bother you if I copied it? I'm not very good at computer things.

I used Paint Shop Pro. Just resized the three pics to share the same pixel height (115) and then just copy/pasted them into a 620x115 pixel picture. Then, overlayed the PB fish and added the "I subscribe" text. For the final touch, I used one of the built in picture frame filters to give it the torn edge look.

I'd be happy to make you one if you'd like. Just send me your preferred pics (full size). PM me for my email.

I agree with Bruce. Weissguy your new avatar is spectacular!

All I know is that these critters eat my garbage and they make real good fish bait. Their great grandparents came from a carton of "fishworms" I bought at Cabalas in Hamburg, PA several years ago.

WV Redneck Worms

Catmandoo - I take it back. After seeing your new picture they sure do look like redworms. In the previous pic, I was just sure they weren't. Now, I think they ARE. Go figure. hehe

That looks absolutely nothing like any redworm I've ever seen in Texas.

"Redworm" sounds to me like a name that likely has varied local meanings.

Maybe in Texas, you call Catmandoo's redworms "red perch"?

There ain't no perch in them thar tanks, I'll tell ya what.

It happened again. I started this thread about two yeas ago after a long and frozen winter. Same story.

It got into the low 70s today. By noontime, I saw that the BG and LMB were schooling and sunning themselves just below the surface.

About two weeks ago, my worm bin was a solid frozen block of kitchen scraps. Today, the weather forecast was so incredible, I was forced to call in with a bad case of 24-hour lepomis fever.

Late this afternoon, I took a garden fork to the worm bin. I was again amazed to find a bin full of worms. I don't know how they survive being frozen solid for several months, but I'm sure glad they know how to do it.

So Cat , what did you do with the worms ?

Hmmm... I'm guessing a few may have tried to catch a fish or died trying!

I grabbed a handful of the worms, and I used them in an attempt to entice anything that was swimming in the pond. There were schools of medium size bluegill, and bass of all sizes, just lazing right near the surface. I guess the fish were so happy to have a really warm and sunny day, they weren't interested in a gormet snack.

All I got was two lethargic LMBs (8-inch and 11-inch). The rest of the fish just ignored me completely.

red wigglers?

RWTCOW!

Burger -- I now just call them all "worms."

As with everything, the more I learn, the less I know. I thought redworms, aka red wigglers/red wrigglers, were just that.

Not long ago, I found that most of what we refer to as "Lumbricus Rubellus" are actually "Eisenia Foetida."

I guess we now need a substitute for RWTCOW!

My friends are poaching from me!



Sometime last week my chickens (and Mr. Rooster) learned how get the cover off of my main worm bin. Between Friday and Sunday they ate several thousand worms!

Smart birds!

You know what they say about the early bird.

Those too intelligent fowl belong in the deep fryer!!!!

I'm always amazed at how much I still have to learn about worms. This morning's children's sermon at church was supposed to use worms to teach about leading a clean life.

Our pastor brought in four jars and some worms from his garden.

The first batch of worms was put into a jar with some alcohol.

The second batch of worms was put into a container of cigarette smoke.

The third batch of worms was put into a container of chocolate syrup.

The fourth batch of worms was put into a container of good clean soil.

At the conclusion of the service, our pastor called the kids back up front and they examined the jars.

The worms in alcohol- Dead

The worms in cigarette smoke - Dead

The worms in chocolate syrup - Dead

The worms in good clean soil - Alive.

So the pastor asked the kids -

What did you learn from this lesson???

Little Charlotte quickly raised her hand and said,

'As long as you drink, smoke, and eat chocolate, you won't have worms!'

That pretty much ended the service. And I learned a little more about murdering worms.

He might oughta keep preaching the Word and quit trying to out think Kids.

I'm going to use this analogy over and over an over...CLASSIC Cat!

Cat

Ordered some Euro Crawlers last week based on some forum advice here and the proprietor indicated for my zone they would perform better. I don't know about that - I was going to order Red Wigglers but he talked me out of it. I'll take some pics of my bin and the crawlers asap and appreciate your guidance to this point.

Hey TJ, I figure the more diversity and growers we have, the better! We should be able to learn from each other. Good luck. Keep reporting.

I can't seem to help myself. But, here is just a little more about my worm friends.

Every year, I collect many cubic yards of leaves from our front yard.



After I consolidate the leaf piles in late November, I throw in about a pound of my worms. Over the winter I turn the piles several times with my little tractor. By springtime, they look like this:



I've got a number of raised beds and other garden areas around the property. They get regular dressings of the compost from the worm/leaf piles. Over the winter, everything gets a good dose of winter rye seeds to help the worms loosen the soil from way down deep.



Today, when I went to plant the tomatoes and a few other things, I was again amazed to see the incredible numbers of mature worms in the beds that had been topped with this compost last fall, and again about a month ago. I regularly check my soil conditions. I seldom need any additional fertilizer supplements through the season. From about mid-June until frost, we get a lot of vegetables from these beds to go with our fish dinners from the pond.

Ken, you could write for Mother Earth News. That's neat.

Ken...I think we can all take a page from you and your use of what Mother Nature provides for free. Worm castings are an incredible source of natural fertilizer from what I've heard from many gardeners. Pan fried bluegill fillets, sliced cucumbers or tomatoes, and maybe some fried zuchini and a nice beverage of your choice [diet pepsi for me, please]. Afterwards it's off to the swing on the front porch and watch the sunset with the wife?

Hey, TJ, is that techno-speak for "worm poop?"

Humph! I don't believe I saw you with a diet pepsi in your mitts all day TJ!

An odd thing about worm castings (yep Todd, it's poop) is that they are good for the soil but bad for the worms. They've extracted what they need and then they move on.

I thought it might be time to resurrect this old thread for the many new people who have joined Pond Boss.

I recently needed some fishing worms, and I wasn't near home. I was absolutely shocked at the price of fishing worms and nightcrawlers. $3-$4 a dozen for crawlers. About the same for 20 redworms. I thought maybe it was just the place I stopped at. Over the last week or so, I've stopped at a few other places, and I found that the prices have gone crazy for worms.

Even at these inflated prices, one can start a very successful worm farm, including stock, for under $15. We pull at least 25-50 worms out of our worm farm every week.

A few years ago, long-time Pond Boss friend Dave Davidson gave me some of his "Texas Jumping Worms." They don't seem to do very well in my worm farm, but these huge and demoniacal worms grow like crazy in my raised garden beds. They aren't for the faint of heart. They grow to about six inches. When subjected to sunlight, or when picked up, they writhe and jump like . . . I can't describe it.

Anyway, my redworms and Dave's adopted worms survive the 100 degree heat of summer. They make it through our the WV winters. They eat most of our kitchen garbage. They are worth a try if you have a fishing pond.

P.S. I'm about to go re-pot a bunch of my wife's flower plants. I'm planning on using a lot of the worm castings for fertilizer.

Ken, I recently released all of my jumpers, and the West Va immigrants, back around the side of the shed whence they came. Sustained 100+ temps was taking its toll on them and some really nasty, stinking, Black Soldier Fly larvae got into the containers.

I transplanted some, and their soil, into a couple of places on my lawn where clay and shade kept grass from growing. Actually, I dug out the old clay and used the worms and castings in the holes. I now have grass spreading over the bald areas.

For anyone who doesn't know about Dave's Texas Jumping Worms, they are absolutely spooky. The ones I got from Dave a few years ago have thrived in my garden beds -- and they have been quite prolific. They like to stay near the surface when the ground is a little damp. They also grow to near Canadian nightcrawler size. I'm still not accustomed to having them in the garden. If I'm picking weeds or planting seeds, some will jump out of the ground -- and I immediately think "snake." They are much firmer and stiffer than regular night crawlers. Actually, they are kind of brittle, and will break if not handled properly.

They make great bait worms because of their size, ability to stand really high heat, and their tenacity. Dave needs to go into business exporting those critters.

Funny story Ken.

About 30 or so years ago, I started a backyard worm farm in an old free standing military foot locker. Those were in the days that earthworm raising took over chinchilla ranching and preceded ostrich raising as a sucker deal. The worm scam involved buying 100 select breeders for about 25 cents each + shipping and handling and then selling them back to the worm dealer by the pound. The sales pitch was that you could get your original investment back in 6 months and the more you bought, the more money you made. Any idea how many worms it takes to make a pound? Heck, I just wanted them for fishing. However, worms are highly prolific and I was giving a lot away.

Then a couple of guys wanted to buy my worm farm. One was a bearded hippie and the other was a Dallas Cop. They figured to get rich on selling worms(or so they said). I think I sold them for $175.00.

About 2 years later one of them contacted me and asked if I wanted to buy my worms and their progeny back. They had over a dozen beds. I said no. Later I found out that they had gotten busted for raising marijuana in the worm beds and needed Lawyer $. Evidently they figured the super charged soil ought to grow good weed. I wouldn't know.

*puts rock on top of worm bin*

your turn chickens...

When I was a kid on the farm we had New Zealand White rabbits...70 breeding does and 20 breeding bucks...and all the little ones growing out to dressing size. Anyhow, we used to use the rabbit poop as media for our red wigglers. We must have had millions of them. I couldn't even tell you how many could live in the manure produced by over 100 rabbits, and whoever mentioned the worm poop being just about the best garden soil additive on the planet? That is spot on. Rabbit poop, transformed into worm poop, is the BEST garden soil additive you can find. We would put a whole layer of it over the vegetable garden every year a few inches thick and till in all into the soil.

I didn't really have anything to add. Just wanted to share the story LOL.

kept this thread in my bookmarks.....
fantastic advice, 1. question...living here in nc is gawd awful hot, but my worms seem too cold and get mushy when i keep them in the fridge ....any advice on this ?
ty mike

Glad someone brought this post up. I hadn't seen it before. I hope more people read it.

Any tips for setting up a compost 'corner' or bin? I have a back that isn't up for a lot of turning compost and I don't have a front end loader on my tractor although if I could find a used one I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I have tons of leaves, mostly Oak and maple and I'd love to mix them with soil and turn them a few times through the fall, winter and spring.

If it was in a big tote with sides then it isn't so easy to work in or to add to, or subtract from the pile.

I was thinking of trying to build a 3 sided enclosure, but would need a smooth solid bottom to help with scooping out right? Maybe I could source some plastic pallets (smooth top) and put out a few for the bottom, then add some sides by adding wooden or plastic pallets set up on their sides?

Is there an advantage to buying a IBC tote (275 gallons) and maybe keeping the top on and maybe partially cut open, but cutting open one of the sides to allow turning of the pile? Working in a confined space like that may not be so easy?

Then I'd like to have worms grow in that. I'll have it down by the pond where I usually dump grass clippings and leaves. I dump my FA there too, but mine is so tenacious that I can't figure out how to shred it up to add it to a compost pile.

Great ideas in this thread. I'm always trying to figure out the gardening thing. Raised beds sound interesting. I rototilled today and was thinking that maybe this year I'm going to plant my beans REALLY high on a raised platform of some type so when I have to pick them I can pretty much stand upright!

I have found that turning and loosening the actual soil doesn't impress the worms. They seem to need something firm enough to crawl through and extract whatever they need.

I dump some leaves and grass clippings and really don't mess with them. The number one place to find them is an old horse blanket next to the piles of composted junk.

it's crazy how things pop up here and provide information that I need from time to time. I like that about this site and the people who contribute, that is just cool

So, last week my son show up with an old refrigerator and tells me of his plans to have a worm bed for fishing worms. I am thinking holes will need to be drilled in the bottom (back side) when layed down. This would be for drainage of excess moisture. And maybe a layer of rock in the bottom?

Another note, my son is a junk collector, not commercial, just a collector of junk. Ben that way ever since he was a small boy. He is now 37

Tracy

Tracy if you raise them you need a bottom of screen and a top to keep them in during rain and lightning events.... Had a neighbor loose all his worms during a storm, they bailed out the top .....

Bailed Huh !! Now that is funny

Thank Pat

Tracy

Rabbit poo is the best all around fertilizer that can be had ... It doesn't burn plants right out of the bunnie. Tomatoes are the sweetest that they can be on rabbit poo, when we raised them to show when the daughter was young we put it on everything that would grow with amazing results. There is a composting barrel that you turn the crank to turn it over that works amazing.... Compost in two weeks if you get the mix right.