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#87925 - 05/17/07 10:19 PM Ideas needed to build a boat house
eddie_walker Offline
Lunker

Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 773
Loc: Just North of Tyler, Texas
I have a client who has enough money to build a boat house on the lake that will not be on wooden piers. His goal is to build it right the first time, and know that when his kids are grown, they will be able to spend time there with thier kids.

I can get wood piers sunk into the lake in any arragement I want. That's easy, but it's not what he wants.

We've discussed galvenized steel pipe and having the company that sets the wood piers install them, but don't know how long they will last. Can a guy buy large, heavy duty aluminum poles?

He's looked into fiberglass poles, but isn't sure of there strength, and I don't have a clue about them. Concrete is my first and favorite idea, but I'm unsure of how to do it.

One idea is to have some ten or 12 inch PVC pipe set into the floor of the lake. I don't know if the wood pier guys can put PVC pipe into the floor of lake deep enough to be effective. I don't know if I can pour concrete in the pipe so that it's solid and there are no gaps that will allow the rebar to rust out on me.

Cement pilings should do it, but getting them and installing them in way beyound anything I can figure out how to accomplish.

We're in the early stages of discussing this. I'm remodeling his offices and building a custom house for a different client right now, so it's not gonna happen for at least three or four months. I'm just seeing if it's something I can do, or get done.

Thanks,
Eddie
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Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

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#87926 - 05/17/07 10:38 PM Re: Ideas needed to build a boat house
Theo Gallus Online   content
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Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 12394
Loc: Central Ohio
Eddie, how about big steel I-beams driven into the bottom? Heavy steel seems to last a long time in fresh water, or am I wrong? IIRC ODNR uses it for pier pilings at state parks in Ohio.
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#87927 - 05/17/07 10:41 PM Re: Ideas needed to build a boat house
dave in el dorado ca Offline
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Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 3261
Loc: el dorado ca
hey eddie,
the shallow subsurface geology of the lake bed will be a factor to consider. my first thought was like theo's, i immediately pictured a pile driver driving steel I beams.
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#87928 - 05/18/07 07:15 AM Re: Ideas needed to build a boat house
Dave Davidson1 Offline
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13600
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Eddie, I think that several guys on here have poured concrete, with rebar, into PVC. The only potential problem I see is UV rays eating the PVC and possibly looking unsightly. Since you are spening another guys $, I like the steel idea.
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#87929 - 05/18/07 07:47 AM Re: Ideas needed to build a boat house
eddie_walker Offline
Lunker

Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 773
Loc: Just North of Tyler, Texas
Thanks for the quick response. I'm meeting with him sometime next week and neither of us have thought of I beams.

I'll do some searches for State Parks in Ohio and Steel I Beams for building piers.

Eddie
_________________________
Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.

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#87930 - 05/18/07 07:56 AM Re: Ideas needed to build a boat house
Brettski Offline
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Field Correspondent
Lunker

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 6908
Loc: Illinois
There are grades of steel known as HSLA or high strength, low alloy. It is a composition that is basically a generic low carbon steel (SIW qualtiy....guaranteed to sink in water...steel inside joke), but a small percentage of columbium or vanadium is added to the melt to provide increased tensile and yield. It keeps the product cost way down, yet bumps up the strength. Ryan Freeze (bridge builder for the state) will recognize the product as it usually carries an ASTM spec with a grade number behind it; like ASTM A-715 grade 50. The grade number is the tested minimum yield strength in PSI; 50,000# min PSI yield. This stuff is REALLY BIG in automotive and structural (bridges, buildings). Anyway, there is are spin-off grades of the this product line that has enhanced corrosion resistance properties. They used to add small amounts of copper to multiply the corrosion resistance to twice and 3 times the norm. (I used to be closer to the technical stuff, but we have gotten away from the product line years ago) A very large vendor of the product had a trade name: corten (2x) and triten (3x) resistance. If this is the direction you start to head, let me know and I will see if I can come up with more.
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#87931 - 05/23/07 05:38 PM Re: Ideas needed to build a boat house
Winston Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 76
Loc: Riverview, FL
Sorry so late to the thread, but considering the weight you are planning to put on them, the pvc pipe idea is not good idea. They would have to be sunk to a level for end bearing and you would have a tough time getting them there. Treated wood piles would last a long time. But if he wants the best, some 10" H piles would be your bet, coated with an epoxy before driving, you can buy them that way. Also, the guy that could drive the wooden piles should also be able to do these with a new driving cap that you may have to buy. Concrete piles or any larger pile would in no way be cost efective. The weight of even a small concrete pile and the equipment to drive im sure he does not even want to pay for. Keep in mind, its really only at the water survice and above that a steel pile needs protected. The amount of piles is based totally on the weight of what you are wanting to put on top of them. For most part, piles are thought of as end bearing, as in tons or kips. In general, find out how much the building or boat is going to weigh, know to what bearing you are going to drive the pile to, your pile driver should be able to tell you what he thinks he should get, divide it, and it will tell you how many you need, figure on a 2 to 1 safety factor. Keep in mind, depending on how far they extend out of the water, lateral forces will come into play. This is a whole nother thing, believe me the wind load on the side of the building generates large amounts of forces. Depending on the amount out of the water, even the way the pile are turned comes into play for lateral loads.

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#87932 - 05/24/07 09:08 AM Re: Ideas needed to build a boat house
eddie_walker Offline
Lunker

Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 773
Loc: Just North of Tyler, Texas
Brettski and Winston,

Thank you for the advice. I've printed out this information and some other good stuff I've come up with to see what he wants to do.

We'll get an engineer involved, but my experience is that if they don't know all the options, they wont admit it and charge him thier time to educate themselves. If we prestent a few options and then have it designed, we hope it will go allot smoother.

The weight of the cement piers makes allot of sense. Using metal is probably what will happen, but fiberglass seems to be very popular in New England.

If this happens, it won't be for a few months at the earliest, and maybe even next year.

Thanks,
Eddie
_________________________
Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.

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#87933 - 05/24/07 11:13 AM Re: Ideas needed to build a boat house
Toby Davis Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 93
Loc: Sarasota, FL
Eddie,
Wooden pilings have been used forever here in Florida saltwater. The pilings last generations. Is it possible that your friend is just not informed enough about the durability of wooden pilings.
Toby

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#87934 - 05/24/07 01:34 PM Re: Ideas needed to build a boat house
Winston Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 76
Loc: Riverview, FL
The problem with fiberglass is the section modulas is very low compared to steel. The simple way of it is, it bends to easy. I have tried to use fiberglass sheet piles in a couple applications for permenant instalation. It all comes back to how much of it will be sticking out of the ground, and how far in the ground they will need to be installed to get bearing load.

Your best bet is to tell the owner that to do what he wants, you are going to have some upfront costs. First, meet with an engineer that is familar with this type of work. Keep in mind, that is not just any engineer. In general, the engineer will not be able to tell you to much with out soil borings or the load of the building and its size. With out these he can not do much.

You can probally get a soil boring for $750 to $1,500 on the bank. After that you have to come up with a weight and size of building.

With that he can come up with what size, length, and number of piles. Penatration and soil will have lot to do with your lateral loads. As an example, if you only have 10' in soft, wet soil and 10' out and it hits rock, you will get great end bearing load, but it will not resist any lateral loads, you could push it over. But if you have only 5' above soil, it will resist more lateral loads. If it drives 25' and does not hit rock, you can still get bearing load by skin friction, considering the small loads you will be looking for, this will probally be the case, unknown with out soil borings. But if you have 25' of the pile in soil and then 10' out, you can understand how this would resist lateral loads.

One more for your understand about pile loads, it is nothing more than a force calculation. The simplest form is a drop hammer, used for ever. If you pick a certain weight up a certain distance and drop it, it will create a certain donward force. When the object you drop it on stops moving, what ever that force of drop is what the pile is rated at. This is making it very simple, but used for centuries.

This is probably more than anybody wants to know about it, but i get to feel like i actually helped somebody on the board!

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#87935 - 05/24/07 02:58 PM Re: Ideas needed to build a boat house
TOM G Offline
Lunker

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 2086
Loc: Dawson Tx
Excuse me for asking a silly question.Why do you want to piledrive your posts in?I set mine in place(steel pipe)and pumped water down the center of the pipe and washed em down to where I wanted em.Cheap and quick with no problems.
Tom
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#87936 - 05/24/07 03:20 PM Re: Ideas needed to build a boat house
Brettski Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 6908
Loc: Illinois
Tom,
Very interesting method...please expand a little. Pipe O.D., pump used, depth achieved during washout, did you hit a brick wall when (if) you hit a hard clay layer (which ultimately was the support you seeked)? Describe the process a little.
thx
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#87937 - 05/24/07 04:32 PM Re: Ideas needed to build a boat house
Ryan Freeze Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 1285
Loc: Southwest Ohio
At one time ASTM A588 steel "self weathering" was used here on bridges over waterways where future painting and paint removal eviromental concerns exist. It contains a small amount of copper that forms a patina that helps protect itself when allowed to oxidize. It is more prone to cracking than A36 but probably not a big deal for your application. Many standard structural shapes are commonly available. Special welding rods are also required and readily available as well. The problem is that the protective layer is formed during the wet and dry cycling. The protective layer cannot form underwater on self weathering steel. It can be painted with a good quality marine coating on what will be below surface but the coating may be comprimised during the installation process. A good painting system we use is an organic zinc primer, and epoxy intermediate coat followed by a urethane top coat.
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"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking

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#87938 - 05/25/07 09:46 AM Re: Ideas needed to build a boat house
Winston Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 76
Loc: Riverview, FL
Jetting piles in is a common practice in sandy or very silty soils, even with large concrete piles in coastal areas. It gets them to a depth very quickly, but after that point, they still have to be struck for load testing. Typically, if the soils are very high in clay, you can forget jetting. I am not sure what the soils are like in Texas.


The biggest problem and should be his concern is a building permit. With out proper engineering controls showing that the foundation piles will support the building, he will never get one.

That is not even touching on his liability for not having an engineer design it. Keep in mind, hes building a house.

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