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If you have a healthy small bass population is there a big downside to having greenies in a sunfish pond? If so, what are they? I've read the bass will outcompete them so if there a few genes to hybridize what would be the overall effect? Also, I noticed some redbreast in my stock with the little bit longer ears that are very round like a bluegill. Will they interbreed with the other species??? I am sure of haveing a majority of cnbg then some redears, a few greenies, and a few redbreasts. I stocked some small greenies before I knew what I was doing:( but some appear to be of the opinion that this is not neccesarily a bad thing. I'd like to hear what you guys think so I know what I should do.

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hey keith, there is a small minority (like 2 members out of over 3,600 \:D ) that like the GSF only cause of how big they grow in our particular ponds. but i think you'll find the majority of pondmeisters who manage for big bass dont like them cause they have bigger mouths than other sunfish and compete with young bass for forage.

it all depends on yer objectives. mine is to have a diverse bream pond full of quality fish in my front yard, and i dont know if what i am doing will get me there, but i'm having fun trying, and will do it over if it doesnt pan out like i think.

as far as interbreeding, that's been discussed here a few places, and no one really knows....it happens in some ponds, and not in others. constantly murky water may be a contributing factor to interbreeding, and clear water may keep the species true (as dr. condello has suggested)


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so are you one of the two? If you keep predator bass will the greenies get nice and big and will the genetic diversity help to creat some island of doctor moreau sunfish that are like two ponds? I have a 50ft diameter pit with many different big sunfish as my goal. Are the green ones good to eat too??? I do have some big greens in a aquarium and trying to decide if I should throw them in the pond since there are already little ones.

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busted.....

i love the GSF. pound for pound the best sporting fish in a pond IMHO, and yes, as table fare they rank right up there with all the other lepomis.

i live near a ranch pond that has only lmb and GSF. the lmb are overpopulated and mostly stunted and the GSF reach over 12-inches and well over 1 pound, maybe 2 lb. the average size caught is a very FAT 8-10 inches. i stocked some of these lunker GSF last year, and they spawned, i have YOY sunnies this year, but dont know if any adults survived.

here is a pic of one the adult stockers:



before you let me talk you into filling yer pond with GSF, you might want to hear some other opinions.......


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Kieth there is a fair amount of info on BG and GSF and HBG their cross. There is more info also on the various lepomis and their crosses. Here is a long thread with pics on HBG and BG and GSF crosses.

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000439

Many (almost all) Centrarchid fish (bass , lepomis and crappie) have some ability to cross (there are a couple of exceptions). Their viability after birth is good in many crosses but not good in some others. It is often hard to tell about crosses especially their % of one lepomis or the other ( ie 25 % BG , 50% GSF and 25% RES). Looking at the gill rakers is a common method of id but is not easy.




TEMPO OF HYBRID INVIABILITY IN CENTRARCHID FISHES by DANIEL I. BOLNICK AND THOMAS J. NEAR :


" The only crosses with total inviability in
both directions are M. salmoides 3 (Ambloplites rupestrus,
Pomoxis annularis, or Pomoxis nigromaculatus) at 28.94 million
years, while 10 other crosses of that age have some
viability in one or both reciprocal directions (see online Appendix).
Centrarchids also retain nonzero viability and heterosis
for much longer than most other taxa."






This is a start. Lets see where it goes from here.
















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That clears it right up for me :rolleyes:

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ewest's first (eye) chart shows various pairs of Centrarchid species and the compatibility (viability) of these crosses and reciprocal (sexes reversed) crosses. IIRC these were all laboratory crosses using stripped milt and row; in the wild, factors such as geography, coloration, and behavioral differences preclude most of these crosses from ever occurring.

Note the high viability of such commonly used crosses as BGxGSF and Northern LMBxFlorida LMB. Most of the intra-genus crosses (e.g. LepomisxLepomis and MicrolophusxMicrolophus) exhibit high compatiblity.

The second "family tree" chart shows the relationship between the various Centrarchidae with the estimated divergence points (how long ago) between different species. In general, the longer two species have been separated, the less viable crosses between them are.

------------------------------------------------

If I were interested in keeping several different species of Lepomis in a pond, I would not have a problem with including GSF as long I was going to use a LMB (and/or other predator) heavy management approach.


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I'm the other GSF fan. I don't really consider them a problem. Their more elongated shape make them pretty easy for bass to control. Now, in a sunfish only pond, it goes back to your goals.

My Grandson caught one the other day that could only be considered a trophy by D.I.E.D. and I. I put it back in.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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DD1, too bad you didnt get a pic of that Hurst & Bowie TX trophy sunny, would have liked to see that.

we cant forget my friend mr. jeffhasapond......so that makes 3 out of 3,600 \:D

interesting note about lmb being able to easily control them....this is VERY true in the ranchpond to the point where you absolutely cannot see (or catch) any other size GSF except the big ones....all smaller year classes are decimated, however there must exist those very few individuals that hide in the weeds and escape predation to become lunkers.

from what i've seen, by themselves, GSF are insufficient forage for a bass pond. throughout the year all the ranchpond lmb have bellies full of their own fry or YOY (or frogs when in season). conversely, in a sunfish pond, my guess is that GSF dont cut it as the top predator, couldnt keep up w/ BG production, and as theo says, you'll need that higher end predator like lmb....i'm going to try out spotted bass in my little experiement.


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well then fine, I will roll ahead with some greenies and keep my plan for the LMB. Now, are there any differences in taste between gsp, cnbg, and resf???? I want the tastiest ones.

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oh, and newbie question, what are YOY, year old something?

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YOY = Young Of the Year



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I can't recall anyone noting a difference in taste between any of the Lepomis species; I've never noticed a difference with BG, HBG, and RES. There's probably a larger variation from body of water to body of water than from species to species.


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 Quote:
Originally posted by Keith Wolfe:
well then fine, I will roll ahead with some greenies ..........
ahhh keith....a collective groan from 3,597 PB forum members.......hey just kidding......i think the point is like ewest has said many times, its YOUR pond, do what YOU want to do, and have fun along the way........

my only caution would be to learn as much you can like i am trying to do, and it appears what you are trying to do just by being here....good move \:\) .....and good luck sir.


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I knew those charts would elicit a collective groan. You should try reading the outstanding study.

Thanks DIED. Learn all you can and do it your way because it is, after all, your pond. Always , always enjoy the journey. Good advice.

All lepomis that I know of have a known propensity to stunt except RES. Control by a predator is needed to keep a balanced population. On the scale of stunting at small size among the most common lepomis I rank GSF first (worst) followed by PS second and then BG and then RES (at 0 to min.). You can grow them all to their genetic potential in the right situation. In a mixed pond it should get very interesting. I would sure like to see the results. \:\)
















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Keith, I'm a green sunfish fan but only as a part of the sunfish population. Since they only spawn once per year, I don't consider them a problem. However, if these suckers spawned like bluegill, I wouldn't want them.

I think of the green sunfish as just another member of the population and neither good nor bad. I can definitely tell when I hook a good one. I think they outfight a BG.


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Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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I'm one of the majority...I dislike GSF, but will admit they fight much harder than BG, CNBG, & RES. I only dislike them because they degrade the gene pool over time into a bunch of mutant fish...if you have native BG & CNBG present. Just like the controversial Georgia Giants, mixed populations like that degenerate over time. The heron introduced a few GSF into my pond (another controversial topic) \:D

However, I'm in the 2% minority when it comes to Crappie...I love them ! Let them eat all the YOY of any species they want...my tilapia will soon outnumber just about everything, creating an unlimited buffet for all !

Now, what do you want to eat...a GSF, or Crappie \:D

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A couple years ago I had the opportunity to stock a small 1/5 acre pond and contacted Texas A&M for opinions. The pond was only 3 or 4 feet deep at it deepest point. They actually reccomended that I stock only hybrid green sunfish if we were interested in ever having fish to consume. They said that Bluegill would overpopulate the pond within a year and the end result would be many 2-3 inch fish. They also mentioned that green sunfish were extremely drought and heat tolerant and that they are one of the few species that can survive in small ditches in 100+ degree Texas heat. My experience is that Texas A&M views most fish subjects from the harvest aspects. They actually suggest that you stock the pond, grow the fish and catch them all for consumption and then start over again. They suggest this for catfish as well.

I ended up putting every type of perch I could find - 5 different species plus 3 or 4 Warmouths that I caught in an area lake. The fishing was phenomenal for the first 18 months with bluegill the highest number caught but the green sunfish were by far the largest.

The past 2 years have been bad droughts in our area and the pond level went down to about 2 feet deep last summer and I noted a frequent vistor to that pond - a blue heron. Late last summer I did catch some fish...nearly all large green sunfish. I have no idea what is left in that pond now believing that the heron probably consumed many - but will look forward to seeing now that the weather is warming. Based on my limited experience, I think that green sunfish only in this small pond would actaully be a pretty darn good idea, especially for a small pond in climates like Texas.


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I used to toss GSF on the bank when I caught them. Then, I noticed their elongated body. Just what a predator needs. With a low spawning rate, they can't add much to the forage base but I've just not seen them become a problem as a predator. I see no way they can effectively compete with other predators. If they clobber an occasional YOY bass, that's not much loss and BG can drastically outspawn them.

Without a proper bass base, BG can get out of control just like the bass themselves can. Anytime I see too many GSF or BG, I can bet that the pond doesn't have enough bass or EFFECTIVE predators. This stuff has to be PROPERLY balanced between predator and prey. And that goes back to goals regarding stocking and management plans.

Captain, I expect you still have some BG. I think you have just about as much chance of erradicating them as you do fire ants.


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 Quote:
Originally posted by Eastland:
I only dislike them because they degrade the gene pool over time into a bunch of mutant fish...if you have native BG & CNBG present...
However, I'm in the 2% minority when it comes to Crappie...I love them ! Now, what do you want to eat...a GSF, or Crappie \:D
I'm with Eastland on both counts.

I have never actually seen a pond ruined by GSF, but fear their genetics creeping in.

I HAVE seen a couple of ponds ruined by their cousin the longear sunfish. They breed like flies, and 6" is a big one. GSF, maybe. Longears? Panic time! Shoot the heron, drain the pond, start over.

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Thanks for all the advice and different views!!! Now that I think about it when I fish in our creek I catch more gsf than bg. Maybe they are a better creek predator since in our creek I've only seen one very small bass and it tends to dry up every other year except for the deepest holes. There haven't been any fish to speak of in my creek yet this year, atleast not many. I guess the water is still warming up. I tried worms under a bobber in the creek the other day for some additional pond stock but couldn't get hit, even by the snags in the holes. Our creek is one of the feeders to lake lavon if anyone is familiar with the area. It is called pilot grove creek. I'll try to get a screen grab of our property. I with I could make my own lake out of that creek, I tell you what:)

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maybe this will work. Our land starts in the bottom left and the border stairsteps to the top right. All the trees are our as we have the biggest stand of woods for quite a ways around us. The bottom border is straight along the botom and the right border is winding pilot grove creek. the pond is to the mid right. I've been trying to put out feed for wild pigs, fish, hunt, and anything I can think of for the last 13 years out there. I'm afraid the city will swallow us and we will have to find a new piece of land one day.

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GREEN SUNNIES!!!! I likes my green sunnies. Can you tell that I'm the third member of the Green Sunfish Fan Club?

Like DIED I have sunfish soup in my pond. I purchased my property with an existing old pond. There had never (as far as I can tell) been any pond management of any sort. My pond had Large Mouth Bass (stunted) and Green Sunfish in it already. I have what I would call a healthy population of GSF.

I agree with DIED, pound for pound, I think GSF have got to be one of the most agressive fighting fish. They will hit a lure like a freight train and fight like crazy. Mine love a "bumble bee" top water lure or a "Rooster tail" lure. Compared to other sunfish of a similar size they have HUGE bass-like mouths.

My pond is a perfect illustration that the GSF by itself will not provide a forage base sufficient to support a healthy bass population. The bass will stunt. That is exactly why I added Bluegill and RES. Actually I added the BG for forage base and the RES to eat the annoying snails.

What will the effect of trying to maintain GSF, BG and RES in a pond with LMB? I'll tell you in a couple of years. I posted my concerns about hybridization and it seemed to me that the general consensus was that since the various sunfish spawn at different temperatures and as long as your water was not completely murky the likely hood of genetics destruction is not very high. Seems like common sense. Could there be some hybridization - - sure, will this cause each of the populations to deteriorate into a mongrel fish - - unlikely. But I'm no expert so don't quote me. I'm just a numbers monkey trying to have fun with my pond. \:D


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took 20 something nice ones out today (15cnbg, a few pumpkin seed, 2 redear and two green)and with all the small and medium I already had I think I have a good base of all sizes. Saw a turle and a bunch of baby crawfish on the bank edge and haven't seen them(the fish) take the floating food yet, maybe they are getting plenty with the baby crawdads and bugs??? They are used to bread at the pond they came from. can we throw our old bread in????

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Keith, you could but fish need high protien. Bread is mostly a filler. I doubt that it would hurt them but it is pretty useless stuff.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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