Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Federal agencies run amok.....

Norm in all the cases you mention their are laws/constitutions to deal with the problems. The beauty of our system is the founding fathers were well aware of these type things. If you recall the Crown owned all and the founding fathers were well aware of its power to enslave them by restricting their resources. That is why we have private property (be it land or bank accounts or things [like cars and household items]) and rights in them. The founding fathers in their wisdom protected private property as the cornerstone for all freedoms specifically so the gov. can't take them away from an individual with out both public need and just compensation. Here is the catch -- the gov can take property , like water, but when we have legal private property rights in the water they have to pay us compensation. They want to take it without paying and there in lies the problem. If they have to pay market value for all they take it would cost so much they would have to raise taxes. Then the population would have to determine 1) Is there a public need at this cost and 2)do we want to foot the bill by higher taxes. Thus the people would have to decide if the need was great enough and if they collectively (not me or you individually) would be willing to carry the burden. It is this simple -- those burdens , if they are important enough to the people , should be born by the people through general taxes, and the cost should not be forced upon single citizens by taking their property.

Very ensightful post, Ewest. Notice that along the Gulf Coast from Tx. to Ga./Fla. there are very few large reservoirs in the southern portion of these states. Look at all the lakes in metroplex, east Tx. north La. north Miss., Al., Ga. Most of the rain comes to these areas along the coast. Harness it. It just sickens me to see all the rain water going into the Gulf when people in N. Tx, Ok. and others are hurting. Build reservoirs, run pipelines alongside the new natural gas lines that are being planned. Lake water from Lake Superior is only used by some local communities. A very small percentage. Distribute it. JUST PLAN AHEAD, dont do like many cities which are choked by their growth due to no foresight.

This is an interesting take on our resources…its five minutes long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ&mode=related&search

joerocker
I hate to pop anyones bubble but they have drilled wells in the panhandle and are sending the water TO Houston for their water supply already.Didnt anyone notice that in the middle of the worst drought last year that the Brazos river was at capacity all summer?West texas oil drilled wells and paid the river auth. to use the riverbed to move the water south,then pump it back out in Houston.I dont know why they cant save the excess rainfall and use it.
OOPS,yes I do,we all do.Its a simple and easy and common sense and...well your dealing with the gov't and money,does that explain it?!!!

D.I.E.D, you're right, thanks for correcting me. ewest, I really appreciate your comments. I'm trying to make some general points.

Water is such a serious thing that our particular situation must be taken in the context of the larger picture.

While one small pond might not make any difference, hundreds or even thousands of them can make a serious impact on a watershed.

Downstream interest might have a legal right to the normal or natural runoff of water from our land.

No matter what the laws are now, when the demand for water intensifies and push comes to shove, the greater interest will win.

Our NRCS was extremely helpful with our lake. I recognized from the beginning that they have rules and regulations that they have to follow. If they don't follow them, they get fired. Our lake is small enough that we avoided the state regulations. If our lake had been bigger, we would have hit regulations left, right and upside down.

Norm I understand your comment.

"No matter what the laws are now, when the demand for water intensifies and push comes to shove, the greater interest will win."

I suggest that the greater interest is "freedom" which can only exist if there are protected individual rights including private property . That is the basis of the constitution that protects individual rights against the will of the mob/hoard. With out that constitution there is no freedom and you have nothing but your gun and mob rule.

ewest, I agree with you completely. I wish it worked like that. The water in the Missouri River comes from Montana and the Dakotas. But the downstream states won't let us keep it. So they destroy a $50 million a year recreation industry to support a $7 million a year barge industry.

On a brighter note, we thank all of you taxpayers for all your money to build a water pipeline to bring us cheap, clean and plentiful water from the Missouri River.

Does everyone know the definition of government waste? It's taxpayer's money that goes to someone else. You know what taxpayer's money that goes to me is called? It's an essential investment in our national security.

By the way, I should thank all of you for my continued payments for the lake under the freedom to farm act. The fish are doing great and national security has definitely been improved!

y'all ever read Cadillac Desert? just curious. i think the fellas name was weisner or reisner....been a while, but a good read. gives you a real good idea of just how powerful government and local "authorities" are when it comes to water, and how yer tax dollars are put to things that'd make the founding fathers roll in their graves.

here i found it, its author...marc reisner.

Norm,
Glad to hear that my tax dollars are being used for the good of the native fish.I was worried it was all being used in wasteful gov't projects like building bridges to islands in alaska.
Tom

You know...some areas were simply NOT meant to support HUGE numbers of people. So, if they INSIST on living there, they should pay a "paradise tax". You want to live in LA where the weather is beautiful and there isn't much of that "annoying" rain to deal with...then you PAY (a lot) for your desalinization plant. Don't expect me (living in a hell hole compared to where you live) to give up my water (the ONLY blessing I have living here) for you so you can have IT ALL.

Someone mentioned "natural runoff" and how downstream people are entitled to it. Well, it will STILL happen after my pond is filled. Sorry, but what is it Realtors say...location location location. If you don't want people looking into your yard, move to the top of the hill. If you want water...move somewhere wet!

Last time I looked, the population of EVERYWHERE was rising. Does it matter WHERE the population increases come from? Do white people use different water than blacks or Mexicans? There are TOO MANY PEOPLE. We simply cannot keep growing like this without MAJOR ramifications. The government will grow larger and larger and become more and more intrusive because SOMEONE has to manage the decreasing resources and keep the hoards from killing each other over what is left.

Guess you noticed that the "smart" 1st world people have realized this and they're barely if not at all replacing themselves while the idiot 3rd world people are breeding like rabbits regardless of not having enough for them to eat let alone their children.

We need to invest in massive birth control programs...

Then we can cut back on government...

I've lived in San Diego for most of my life and I can appreciate your point. I do feel a couple of comments are in order however. First, living in Southern California you do pay a HUGE "paradise tax" it's called the cost of real estate. Do a search on the average home price in Southern California and you will see what I mean. Second, California is currently building 18 desalination plants thorough out the state. This would have occurred much sooner but the fact is that Colorado was willing to sell California water at a significant profit. It's the old supply versus demand theory. Colorado had more water than it could use and California was willing to purchase it. Since the water has been cheaper to buy that to convert though desalination it was a easy decision to purchase the water. Finally, it's also important to remember that California uses a lot of water for agriculture that helps feed the nation. Our climate is very conducive to growing.

I understand your frustration but there are two sides to every story. That's my two cents.

"There's three sides to every story ...
There's yours, and there's mine, and the cold hard truth."

-Don Henley, "Long Way Home"

Jeff,

Though I sympathize with what you pay for a house. What I mean by a "tax" is just that. You should be paying HUGE amounts of money for your water. Someone mentioned "downstream rights", I think that Mexico would disagree with Colorado selling you all the Colorado Rivers water.

I hope those who rely on the desalinized water have to pay the TOTAL cost for it and this cost isn't spread out for everyone else to pay for too. But alas, I'm sure it will, it always does...

Maybe IF the cost of providing resources to "deserts" were born by those living there and not spread out for others to share in, you'd be paying a LOT less than you do now for a house. Because others a "subsidizing" you (through money and by providing resources) S CA has become a very desirable location. Well it was...it's now being overrun but that's a different story for a different thread/forum.

And WHO do you think is REALLY paying for these "desert" farms? The taxpayers. They use 10X the final cost of the product in WATER alone! Maybe a slight exaggeration but I know that farms in the desert are not making a profit without government help.

While I did not intend this to degenerate into this type of disagreement I guess I just get tired of California bashing.

A few items to keep in mind...

California is the 5th largest producer of food and agricultural commodities in the WORLD. We out produce the next closest state by a two fold margin.

California's economy is ranked by the 8th and 10th largest in the world(depending upon the information source).

The last numbers that I saw (2004 year) California contributed 203 billion dollars in federal taxes (both business and individual) and yet received 189 billion in federal benefits. Which results in a federal surplus of income over spending of 14 billion dollars. So we are not only paying our own way we are largely contributing to the nations economy.

Alas, I guess we can agree to disagree.