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#82566 - 02/08/07 03:30 PM Snow! How long is too long?
Blaine Offline
Lunker

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 449
Loc: Central Indiana
This is my first post and I want to start by saying that Pond Boss general forum has helped me tremendously over the past year while constructing my first pond. It would have been a struggle without you. Thank you 1000 times.

My new pond is approx. 3 surface acres. 15% at 13' with an average of 7' deep. Tile fed currently running at approx 40 gal. per minute. First fingerlings (1500/BG;500/RESF;10 lbs.FHM) were stocked last Sept.

Currently has approx. 4-6" ice. Two weeks ago accumulated 2-3" of snow and 5" more the other day. The temp. today is 5F with at least another five days below freezing. How long can the basic foodchain sustain itself without sunlight before I need to consider snow removal? Hoping for a thaw!
_________________________

2008, 2011 & 2012 conference attendee.
Striving to be the person that my dog already thinks I am.

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#82567 - 02/09/07 06:33 AM Re: Snow! How long is too long?
Cecil Baird1 Offline
Hall of Fame

Lunker

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Blaine:
This is my first post and I want to start by saying that Pond Boss general forum has helped me tremendously over the past year while constructing my first pond. It would have been a struggle without you. Thank you 1000 times.

My new pond is approx. 3 surface acres. 15% at 13' with an average of 7' deep. Tile fed currently running at approx 40 gal. per minute. First fingerlings (1500/BG;500/RESF;10 lbs.FHM) were stocked last Sept.

Currently has approx. 4-6" ice. Two weeks ago accumulated 2-3" of snow and 5" more the other day. The temp. today is 5F with at least another five days below freezing. How long can the basic foodchain sustain itself without sunlight before I need to consider snow removal? Hoping for a thaw!
A question first: What do you mean by "Tile fed currently running at approx 40 gal. per minute?" Do you mean there is that much water feeding in --- even this time of year with a connecting tile? How would you know this for sure?
_________________________
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.







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#82568 - 02/09/07 07:05 AM Re: Snow! How long is too long?
Theo Gallus Offline
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 12394
Loc: Central Ohio
I think you get a couple weeks' grace period before complete snow cover causes O2 problems, IIRC, in a mature pond. Metabolism of the fish is low enough in Winter that food production or lack thereof isn't a major issue.

Since you have a new pond, you should have some advantages: 1) little or no built up organic sediment load, so there's very little decay going on in the pond to use up O2 that way, 2) the biomass of the fish hasn't grown to match the pond's capacity yet, so I expect you have very little O2 demand compared to the amount of O2 that was present under the ice to start with, and 3) small fish tend to be more forgiving under low oxygen conditions. Someone like Bill Cody would IMO have very good thoughts on how long O2 would hold up in your situation.

If I was you I'd have to start thinking about how to clear 10% or so of the ice to let sunlight through. Any aeration capability? If so I'd open a small hole through the ice/snow with judicious use of the aerator, then let it refreeze with clear ice.

FWIW my pond overwintered the first year with absolutely no aeration, snow removal, or loss of the startup forage fish.
_________________________
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling

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#82569 - 02/09/07 08:46 AM Re: Snow! How long is too long?
Blaine Offline
Lunker

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 449
Loc: Central Indiana
Cecil,

I am blessed with an abundance of incoming water. 40 gal. per minute is somewhat slow for my pond. I estimate this from the incoming creek flow or the spillway exiting. 15" drain pipe currently running at approx 15% capacity. It is common to see this same spill way pipe running at half capacity after steady rain. This pond filled in 3 months over the dog days of summer (mid July thru mid October).

Keep in mind Cecil that I am a newby at this. What I have written above is why I "think" I know this.

ps. I am a new found genius in the eyes of my wife and friends based upon turning this old farm ground into a beautiful resource. Don't let this fellow Hoosier fall from grace.

Theo, Thank you for your input... Dul'ly noted.
_________________________

2008, 2011 & 2012 conference attendee.
Striving to be the person that my dog already thinks I am.

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#82570 - 02/09/07 10:29 AM Re: Snow! How long is too long?
Blaine Offline
Lunker

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 449
Loc: Central Indiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cecil Baird1:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Blaine:
This is my first post and I want to start by saying that Pond Boss general forum has helped me tremendously over the past year while constructing my first pond. It would have been a struggle without you. Thank you 1000 times.

My new pond is approx. 3 surface acres. 15% at 13' with an average of 7' deep. Tile fed currently running at approx 40 gal. per minute. First fingerlings (1500/BG;500/RESF;10 lbs.FHM) were stocked last Sept.

Currently has approx. 4-6" ice. Two weeks ago accumulated 2-3" of snow and 5" more the other day. The temp. today is 5F with at least another five days below freezing. How long can the basic foodchain sustain itself without sunlight before I need to consider snow removal? Hoping for a thaw!
A question first: What do you mean by "Tile fed currently running at approx 40 gal. per minute?" Do you mean there is that much water feeding in --- even this time of year with a connecting tile? How would you know this for sure?
Cecil,

I am blessed with an abundance of incoming water. 40 gal. per minute is somewhat slow for my pond. I estimate this from the incoming creek flow or the spillway exiting. 15" drain pipe currently running at approx 15% capacity. It is common to see this same spill way pipe running at half capacity after steady rain. This pond filled in 3 months over the dog days of summer (mid July thru mid October).

Keep in mind Cecil that I am a newby at this. What I have written above is why I "think" I know this.

ps. I am a new found genius in the eyes of my wife and friends based upon turning this old farm ground into a beautiful resource. Don't let this fellow Hoosier fall from grace.

Theo, Thank you for your input... Dul'ly noted.
_________________________

2008, 2011 & 2012 conference attendee.
Striving to be the person that my dog already thinks I am.

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#82571 - 02/09/07 11:01 AM Re: Snow! How long is too long?
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19590
Loc: Miss.
Welcome Blaine to the PB Forum. If you have water coming in from a running creek into the frozen pond that water should be high in O2. Is that water running in under the ice or on top? If on top your snow should melt some and you would have some clear ice , if under the ice it should add O2 to the existing water.
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#82572 - 02/09/07 11:42 AM Re: Snow! How long is too long?
Blaine Offline
Lunker

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 449
Loc: Central Indiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by ewest:
Welcome Blaine to the PB Forum. If you have water coming in from a running creek into the frozen pond that water should be high in O2. Is that water running in under the ice or on top? If on top your snow should melt some and you would have some clear ice , if under the ice it should add O2 to the existing water.
ewest,

The creek originates on my land from the tile feed. It runs approx. 75-100' before it goes into the pond over a 1.5' falls where the ice doesn't form in an approximate 3' circum. The water then runs under the ice for 650' to the spill way. The average width of the pond is 100'... 225' wide at the dam (long triangle).
_________________________

2008, 2011 & 2012 conference attendee.
Striving to be the person that my dog already thinks I am.

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#82573 - 02/09/07 12:05 PM Re: Snow! How long is too long?
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19590
Loc: Miss.
You should not have a winter DO problem in your pond if you have some open water created by a water fall. You guys agree ?
_________________________















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#82574 - 02/09/07 01:09 PM Re: Snow! How long is too long?
Theo Gallus Offline
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 12394
Loc: Central Ohio
Yup.
_________________________
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling

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#82575 - 02/09/07 01:10 PM Re: Snow! How long is too long?
Cecil Baird1 Offline
Hall of Fame

Lunker

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by ewest:
You should not have a winter DO problem in your pond if you have some open water created by a water fall. You guys agree ?
Agreed! And if his fish would find they are having oxygen problems it's very likely they would find the inflow for relief. Not only that I concur with somewhat of a safety net in that his pond is new and his fish are small. It's the larger fish that go first. Good proof of this are the ponds in Minnesota that can't support larger predator fish through winter but easily suppport minnow populations that are harvested in the spring.

One important note though: Be aware that you could have some ice anomolies anywhere on the pond due to the inflow. Be careful getting on the ice!

I would also surmise that your ice will come off sooner than other bodies of water with that inflow.
_________________________
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.







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#82576 - 02/09/07 01:15 PM Re: Snow! How long is too long?
Theo Gallus Offline
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 12394
Loc: Central Ohio
Good point, CB1 - with the constant water flow, going on that ice could get interesting.
_________________________
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling

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#82577 - 02/09/07 04:32 PM Re: Snow! How long is too long?
Blaine Offline
Lunker

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 449
Loc: Central Indiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cecil Baird1:
 Quote:
Originally posted by ewest:
You should not have a winter DO problem in your pond if you have some open water created by a water fall. You guys agree ?
Agreed! And if his fish would find they are having oxygen problems it's very likely they would find the inflow for relief. Not only that I concur with somewhat of a safety net in that his pond is new and his fish are small. It's the larger fish that go first. Good proof of this are the ponds in Minnesota that can't support larger predator fish through winter but easily suppport minnow populations that are harvested in the spring.

One important note though: Be aware that you could have some ice anomolies anywhere on the pond due to the inflow. Be careful getting on the ice!

I would also surmise that you ice will come off sooner than other bodies of water with that inflow.
Cecil,

You are correct about the rapid ice melt when the temp exceeds freezing. Early December it went from open water to a 3" ice layer within 3 days. Temperature rose to mid 40's... Open water to the banks in 2.

Your comments reveal the root reason for my initial question about snow removal. I am terrified of getting out on that ice. When I am there, I am by myself without a neighbor in sight. The article about the poor man falling through the ice (God rest his soul)really struck a chord. Based upon the majority of feed back, I am going to assume that I can stay on shore and look forward to the thaw!? Otherwise, what is the minimum thickness recommended that will safely hold the average man.

Thank you all so much for your prompt and expert advice. Blaine Hession (future Lunker)
_________________________

2008, 2011 & 2012 conference attendee.
Striving to be the person that my dog already thinks I am.

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#82578 - 02/09/07 05:09 PM Re: Snow! How long is too long?
Cecil Baird1 Offline
Hall of Fame

Lunker

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Blaine,

I would say 4 inches for good safety but on your pond the thickness may vary. Another thing that may make you feel better is unless winter hangs on abnormally long you probably only have 4 weeks at most of ice. We usually lose our ice in early March and sometimes even late February.
_________________________
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.







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#82579 - 02/10/07 09:30 AM Re: Snow! How long is too long?
Bernie H. Offline
Lunker

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 101
Loc: Northern Ky
Blaine , Chainsaw,chop,or auger a number of holes as you walk out on the ice. Measure the ice thickness as you go;if it's thinner in some places be safe and avoid that area. We've had below freezing temps for two wks yet thurs. afternoon found holes only 2" thick, along with many at 4" of clear ice. BTW, this is a great time to place fish structure in the pond.

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