Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site my first pond

Hello everyone! This site has been very informative and interesting for me. I have had a subscription now for a few months to Pondboss and ordered many of the old issues including the ones with Mike Otto's pond building series (which were great!), I have also read Bob Lusk's books (also very good), I even read the USDA Agriculture Handbook 590 on ponds (not such good reading). I live in central Iowa and my wife and I just bought about 65 acres of pasture land that we will be moving to in April '05. Eventually we will be building a new house on the south end of the land and I hope to build a large (6-8 acre) pond near the new house. However this spring I would like to build a pond about 1 acre +/- on the north end of the land by the existing farmhouse. This will be my first pond building experience and I hope to make my mistakes on the small one before I build the big one. I attached a topo map of the area, my land is the blue box and I have drawn in the proposed small pond in pencil and what I think would be my watershed in red. The watershed is approximately 30 acres, most of which is pasture land and a small portion crop land. The pond will basically be an excavated pond fed by surface run off. I plan a spillway on the southeast edge of the pond that will follow the existing water run off path under the highway to the east and eventually to the creek to the south. I had planned to go approximately 10 feet deep in the deepest portion,the USDA handbook recommends at least 7-8 feet in my area. According to the calculations from the USDA handbook that gives me a total capacity of about 4 acre feet (1 surface acre x 10 feet deep x .4) In Iowa the handbook says I need about 7 acres of watershed for each acre foot of storage, so to me it seems the watershed should be good for a 1 acre 10 foot deep pond. FYI in my area the annual rainfall is 35-37 inches a year. I have a soil map of the area and the map states the soil is type 5B, however the map does not have a key and I have not been able to determine what soil type 5B means (is that good or bad for a pond?) In my own digging around in the area there seems to be a fair amount of nice top soil with what seems to me to be good clay underneath. I have contacted a local excavating/construction company and told them of the possible project. I told them that they could have the fill dirt in exchange for excavating the pond. Over the phone they were interested but wanted to come see the area before they agreed. I have not found any "pond building experts" in my area but these guys have built some around here and seem reputable. If I have things figured correctly I think I will end up with a nice 1 acre pond for a minimal cost. What I would like is any input from you guys and your vast experience. Thanks!

Matt,
I'm in a similar situation to yours, read the books, mapped topos, etc. It seems to me your watershed is quite a bit larger than you estimated based on the map above. I think it actually extends from the NE corner of the pond along the ridgeline to the northwest to a point where the picture is cropped off, then back down to the southwest where it intersects your property line. If the watershed you have outlined is 30 acres I would guess you have roughly 15-20 acres more outside your propertyline. Like I said I'm not experienced at this but based on my research this is my opinion. I'd be interested to hear from someone with more experience to confirm or refute.

thanks for the input jsec.
I met today with the excavator, he seemed to know his stuff well. He told me of some ponds he has built in the area, a few that I was somewhat familiar with so I'll be checking with those folks. He too thought that I may have a little more watershed than I figured, but not too much. He recommended we start with some test holes, he is going to be sending out a backhoe to dig 6-8 test holes. He said they have run into some sand veins in the area that would be a problem. He is still saying that they will build the pond in exchange for the dirt. He also says that they may try to dig it yet this year(he would like the dirt for another project they are doing). I am very excited but I must admit it seems too good to be true. Has anyone had experience with a situation like this? Honestly I called them and proposed it figuring I would have to kick in some money also but it isn't working out that way. The dirt has several feet of good Iowa topsoil. I don't have any idea what that is worth, maybe more than I thought. Anyone have any idea? Thanks!

Matt:

Find out how much good topsoil sells for in your area. Here (midway between Iowa City and Burlington) it brings $10-12 per ton. Figure an area 200' x 200' 2 feet deep of black soil roughs out to approximately $45,000 for him. I'm sure he's more than happy to do $8-10K worth of work for $35K in profit.

Get a contract. Make sure he guarantees it won't leak. Make him responsible for obtaining the necessary hardware (overflow tube, hydrant if you want one, etc.)

Get hold of your local NRCS office and they will tell you exactly how much drainage you have, and will design the dam properly. Make sure he agrees to build the dam and pond to the plan.

In short, this may be the best deal you'll ever find, but it might be the best deal your contractor ever finds as well. Make dam sure you both get treated fairly and get what you contract for.

I finished my pond 1 year ago this month. My contractor was the one who told me all this stuff, and that was before I hired him. In fact, that's why I hired him. He pointed out all the potential problems up front and told me how to handle them. It's a great project...

Matt Clark

Thanks for the reply Matt!
I had no idea the dirt was worth that much. Now I understand why he was willing to do the deal. I am still going to jump at the opportunity, I have no use for the dirt and sure don't want to fart around trying to sell it on my own. Sounds like a mutually beneficial deal, which is great!
I have been to my local NRCS office and they were no help. The lady I talked to was very nice but told me she couldn't do much for me. She said they used to have people to design the project but they don't do that anymore. She said on a project this small they have the person doing it submit a design that someone reviews and either approves or denies. She didn't seem to think this project would be a problem but also said it was not her call to make. She gave me a soil map and a list of people who build ponds in the area which is where I got this companies name. She however could not comment on the quality of work from any of them. I called these guys first because they have a good reputation in general for their excavation work but no one I talked to knew anything about the quality of the ponds they had built.
Happy Turkey Day everyone!!

matt d
This really does sound like a good deal, keep us posted.

otto

Hope everyone had a good holiday!
I spent part of the time at the new land, after reading jsec's post again I decided to go investigate the watershed a little more. I had previously looked along the road to the north and did not see any culverts for the water to drain from north side of the road. However after looking a little closer after jsec's post I decided to go explore in the ditches. Turns out there are two culverts, they were both hidden by tall weeds. That drastically changes my watershed, I thought I had about 30 acres, turns out it is more like 75 to 80 acres. I outlined what I think it would be in pencil. As this all occurred over the holiday I have not talked to the excavation guys yet to see what they say about it. I would like any input you guys would have for options. From what I understand this would by a very bad situation with a one acre pond and not accounting for the extra watershed. Some ideas I have considered 1) making the pond bigger--I would rather not as I eventually plan to sell this land as a 9 acre plot for someone to build on and I don't want the pond to take too much of the land 2)making a second pond to the west--I drew it on the new watershed map, I don't think I could get as sweet a deal on the second pond because the excavator would need to build more of a dam and would not get as much good top soil out of the deal 3)trying to divert the water coming from the east culvert around the pond to cut down the watershed, I think this would make it more like 50 acres. I am very interested in any input, Thanks!!
PS I posted these pictures using www.picturetrail.com, it is free and easy!

Does your proposed pond site have a seasonal crick bed or tile? If not then how much water is flowing through this valley? Is it so much that it could wash out the damn? or would you have an almost constant overflow?

the other possability is that there is a sand vein diverting water into underground storage. My pond is being built on an ex-sand vein, now its a gravel pit. Find out what the price of sand is in your area
(in southern MN its about $.75/yard) that eqauls a lake plus profit. Worst case scenario you build a large pond on site #1 and hold on the the acerage.

TyW33,
There is not a constant flow of water, right now there is nothing flowing. I have only had the land for a few weeks, but it looks to me like water only flows in these areas after it rains or the snow melt in spring. There are two main areas that are washed out like a small creek bed. They start at the two culverts from under the road to the north. They seem to flow south and east to a larger culvert that goes under the highway on the east edge of my property. The large culvert is just south of my initial proposed pond and just north of the driveway. The water that flows through that culvert under the highway eventually meets up to the east of my property with the creek that flows through the south part of my property. I don't know for sure but it does not seem that the water goes undergroud anywhere in that course as I can see gully or small dry creek beds along most of it. My concern with these areas is that we get a big rain and the large amount of water coming through them could destroy the pond. In my area the USDA handbook recommends about 28 acres of watershed for a pond of this size and from my new calculations I believe I have 75 to 80 acres of watershed. I assume this could be a bad situation.
The excavator is suppose to be coming out soon to dig test holes checking for sand viens. Apparently they have run into them on other projects in my area.
Thanks for the input!

I was wondering if you saw significant over surface flow, and it sounds like you do. If you can't get your pond big enough make sure your overflow is well built. If your spillway is capable of handling your excess water then I don't see how you could have a problem. Good luck, worst case scenario you have to build a bigger pond!

Talked to the excavator today. I discussed the situation with him and I think I am leaning towards building two ponds as shown on my second picture above. He recommended making each pond be filled by a culvert and then routing the overflow so that they both drain into the main culvert under the highway. That would basically cut the watershed about in half. It would leave me with two ponds each about an acre in size. Each with a watershed in the 35 to 40 acre range.
He was going to be sending a back hoe out there today to dig the test holes. He planned to dig 6-8 holes in each proposed site. Looks like I may be getting TWO great Christmas presents!

I talked today to the excavator. He said with the test holes they dug they got down to 10 or 11 feet and started to hit some sandy soil. He says that if we stay at about 10 feet deep the ponds should hold just fine. The USDA handbook recommends a minimum of 7-8 feet deep in my area, therefore I would think that 10 feet would be enough but I also don't want to have a problem with fish kills in the winter. Will 10 feet be enough?
Also I had used picturetrail.com to post the pictures and said it was free and easy, turns out it is only easy. I got an email today from them that my free trial period will be ending soon and I can start an account for $19.95, bummer!

Seems like 10 feet is close for Iowa. My pond is 16 feet and I'm in the Catskills of NY which has got to be warmer than there over the winter.
I'd worry about 10 feet.

How about excavating beyond that and then back fill with the clay material after the deeper holes are dug. The whole pond does not need to be very deep b ut a few good deep holes are a good idea.

I had wondered about doing something like that too. I called the excavator today and discussed it with him and he said that he thought we could try do that.
I had a meeting with the guy that I have been dealing with and the owner of the company yesterday just to make sure we are all on the same page. They are going to build the pond in exchange for the dirt. However in meeting with the boss he was not willing to do the same deal for the second pond to the west. They are instead going to build the first pond I proposed a little to the west of my inital spot so that the drainage from the east culvert will not drain into the pond. This will make my watershed about 40-45 acres. I discussed with them all the things I learned in Mike Otto's series and they say they will include varying topograhpy, a 3:1 slope and all that stuff. They plan to get started on Monday next week!
By the way Tuzz according to weather.com the mean temp is about 5-7 degrees warmer over the winter in Greenfield, NY but you have almost 3x times the precipitation we get here.
Thanks for the input!

I think we've had 3 times more rain than we need here. It has rained so much since we started our pond project and after we finally finished that we are having a hard time maintaining the correct pH levels. We put 4 tons of limestone in during July and got the pH up to a reasonable level but then it started raining again and now we are acidic again. There has been so much runoff and we have a water shed rich in hemlock forrest that I'm not sure how to maintain the pH level. Any thoughts?

They started clearing sod today!! I'll try to get some pics and post them later. It's so exciting!

Have they continued to work on your pond? I'd be concerned with digging deep and capping with clay this time of year. If it gets too cold or wet to work, they may come back to find a small "pond" that thay can't dry up to pack in the clay.

Hey Matt,
I can give you up to 10Mb Of picture space for free.

Just go to:
http://www.bassinsight.com/user.php
and create an account, then go to:
http://www.bassinsight.com/index.php?module=photoshare
and then create an album and upload away.
It's free and I wont charge you nothin'.

I am looking forward to seeing the pics myself. Sounds like its gonna turn out pretty good. You can also add text and descritptions to each picture so you can keep us up to date. I hope things are going well for you.

If you don't need a whole picture gallery, you can just create a journal too.

Here is my
Fishing Journal As you can see you can upload a 1 picture and add text around it. It's free too.

Good luck.

Hello everyone!
Sorry I haven't been keeping up to date. We have been working on our house to get it sold so we can move out to the farm. Once we finally got it on the market it sold in 3 days for $16,000 more than we'd hoped!! Anyway the pond did get started in december but did not progress too far. They cleared the topsoil and did a little excavation and stuff to get dirt for a project they were finishing up. It has since been sitting on hold. We had a fair amount of snow in January. Today the temp got into the upper 50s so I went over there to see how things looked. Just as Matt Clark said there is a small "pond." There was a lot of water flowing into the area from the snow run off. I couldn't tell for sure but I would say there was about 2 feet of water in the deepest part of what they have done so far. I don't know what they are going to do about it. In a way it scares me that it will compromise things in the end. However, it was also pretty awesome to see the water flowing into the "pond" and it starting to take shape even if it is still in its infancy. If anyone can tell me how big a problem this water is I'd like the input! I'll try to keep up with the post but now I'm off to start packing!

Your contractor willl just pump it out. Should not be a pose much problem.

Hello Everyone!
I just wanted to give a quick update to anyone who is interested. I haven't posted anything because nothing much has happened with the pond since winter. In its current state it is about 1/2 acre in size (will be 1 acre when done)and approximately 11ft deep when full. It has been full twice, once when the snow melted and once about a month ago when we had several days of rain. Both times it flowed over the spillway and then started to drop. It is dropping much slower now than it did the first time it was full. When they came and did the work last winter they did not compact the basin, I assume because it was only half way done. Originally they planned to be back in the spring to dig the rest of it because they thought they would need the dirt for a project. I talked to them 2 weeks ago and they said that things had changed and they didn't need it yet. They said that they will eventually need it and be back to finish the excavating sometime this summer. When they finish the excavating and compact it I am hoping that it will not drop again. This being my first pond I do not know, Is it normal for a new pond to drop a lot the first time it fills?
Thanks for the input, love the forum!

matt d,

Yes some is normal in an embankment type of pond...I'm not sure about an excavated pond, i.e. no dam. Seems like it should not leak right off the bat. Expect some absorption, but not a lot. Keep a close eye on it.

Well...it would have been nice to have a contract so that you'd know when they'd be back. Now, you're kinda stuck, huh? My ponds' just a dammed up ravine in s.e. Iowa...dam wasn't anything special. Lotsa clay where I'm at. Thing got about 6 feet deep first winter, dried down a foot or so, then up another 3 or 4 feet that first summer, then down a foot or so, then up to it's current 15-16 foot level, but still needs 2 feet or so.

It never really dropped terribly after the soil first got saturated, but as it climbs, I notice it goes up several inches, then backs down a bit before it stabilizes. Sounds like you need more rain, or compaction or a clay cap if there's any sand there...

I'd sure find out what "eventually" means....don't want them coming back in 2-3 years after the dang thing has completely filled (as much as it's going to) and demanding the rest of the free dirt you "owe" them.