Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Creating habitat Structure?

Posted by ML..."Imagine the amount of forage and feed in 90 degree water temps for several months for 1000 pounds of fish per acre...thats a surprising recommendation to this average pond owner, even if no one else finds it surprising."

Again, I did not suggest 1000 lbs per acre of HSBs along with forage fish in the same pond.

Todd if you get a chance I would like your input in regards to the question I posed to you on page 1 of this thread. This forum has become a wealth of learning experience for me, and I would like your opinion either on forum or by pm.

Thank you in advance!

Here's a post from Bob from awhile back. He is much more eloquent than I, and covers many species.

Geez, guys. I'm not sure I completely understand the question. Is the question how many fish can be raised in a single species put and take pond situation? Or, is the question which combinations of these different fish work well together and how many of each can you grow? Or, is the question how well will all these species of fish work in one pond? And then, recruitment comes only from restocking, based on what we might assume 'natural' mortality to be, basing that concept on old age?

To understand how to answer all of these questions, we first need to understand a pond's ability to produce, then sustain a population of fish, artificially propped up with pelleted fish food.

Here's what I have learned through experience...watching, thinking, building, draining, measuring and weighing lots and lots of fish. Oh yeah, and reading, too.

One variable will be age. Different fish have different age limits, based on geography, habitat and food chain. For example, a native northern strain largemouth bass in Texas can live to 8 years of age, sometimes 10, but one fish in particular, in Illinois, as I recall, was documented to live to 22. For discussion, let's assume each fish has 'x' number of heartbeats, then passes on to the big skillet in the sky. Relatively speaking, the number of heartbeats is an environmental consequence, since fish are cold blooded (like a handful of our distinguished colleagues on this website)

So, my take on the individual fish are as follows...

LMB-Largemouth bass. Two key thoughts here. LMB are instinctively predatory, so a pond's carrying capacity is directly related to the amount of natural food available. Typically, a one acre pond can support 50-75 pounds of LMB, with strong support from bluegill. The second thought is concerning LMB conditioned to feed. I know the fish farmer who started this trend, and they claim 4-5,000 pounds per acre. But, they can exchange water, feed the fish religiously, and use the most expensive feed on the market. But, for John Q. Pondmeister, 300-400 pounds per acre is probably more reasonable. The limiting factor is how complete the feed is. Keep in mind bass on feed are typically obese, and their lifespans are shorter. How many fish to stock? Depends how big you want them to become. In the first example, stock 50 fingerlings, or as few as 20 advanced intermediate size fish to begin. For the second, stock as many as 100-200 fish per acre. Expect pellet trained bass to convert about 3 to 1. Bass which eat live food exclusively convert around 10-1.

SMB-Smallmouth bass. SMB can be maintained at similar rates as largemouth bass, when stocked as the primary predator. Standing crops are similar to LMB. Habitat issues are considerably different for SMB compared to LMB and have a direct impact on the pond's ability to grow and sustain the population. As goes the pond, so goes SMB. Not as much for LMB. If feed trained, expect 3 to 1, maybe a bit less.

HSB-Hybrid Striped Bass. HSB are 'patrol' type eaters, opting to stay on the move, in deeper, open water. But, an average pond owner can expect to grow as much as 400-600 pounds of HSB in a one acre pond, all things being even for the 'right' habitat. Numbers of fish? Again, depends on the size. I would go with 100-200 in a single species stocking, dependant of fish food. An old hybrid striper in the south is 8-10 years. I honestly don't know how long they will live. Expect 2 or 3 to 1 as feed conversion rates.

CC-Channel catfish. These are the easy guys. We can easily stock as many as 100 in a one acre pond, not feed them, and they will thrive and grow to 2-4 pounds each. But, feed them, and you can stock up to 1,000 and expect them to make it to one pound apiece, when productivity is maxed. When a pond pushes to 1,000 pounds of channel cats, expect nature to push back. A 15 year old channel cat, in the south, is old. They convert fish food near 2 to 1.

Sterile Grass Carp. These fish are less known, because no one raises them for a put and take fish. They are used to control excess vegetation. But, they convert wet weight of food somewhere in the range of 40 to 1. I've watched grass carp go from one to seven pounds in a Texas lake from November to July. But, how many can a pond support? These fish are quite different. They eat methodically, all day long, and gain weight fast. But, once the food supply goes away, they drop that weight almost as fast. I have seen grass carp grow from 35 pounds to 12 in less than six months. So, a put and take pond of grass carp could literally see 20 fish swell to 700-800 pounds totally, then shrink and maintain at 300. Again, feeding alters the equation, but not much with grass carp, unless you plan to add lots of grass clippings, hay or bibb lettuce. These creatures normally live to 13-14 years in warmer climates.

Walleye-these top line predator fish fight to make a life. They eat other fish, including each other, often, without conscience. If a one acre pond can support 30-50 adult walleye, give yourself a big pat on the back. But, to get them as big as six or seven pounds, budget 8-10 years and lots of gallons of northern fathead minnows. While walleye are predators, their habits are such that fish as bluegill aren't efficient forage fish. Walleye would rather live deep, in structure. Bluegill choose shallow, in dense cover. Walleye convert live food at the rate of 8-12 pounds of fish to one pound of walleye.

HBG-Hybrid Bluegill. Lots of debate about this fish. As a target, singular species, a one acre pond can easily support 500-600 pounds. If they weigh an average of half a pound, stock 1,000-1,200. Want bigger? Stock fewer. Pushing the limit? A pond could grow as many as 1,000 pounds of HSB, but water quality issues would quickly follow. These guys convert fish food at less than 2 to 1. They live as long as 6-8 years.

Now, let's shift gears. Combining these fish completely changes the equations. Think about how each species lives, what they eat, their behavior patterns, habitat requirements and you will see what I mean. Alone, each fish might thrive in a one acre pond. But, put them together, and it's like the Pittsburgh Steelers lining up against the Nebraska Cornhuskers as they tease your favorite high school football team. In the meantime, HSB pirates are raiding the fridge in the middle of the pond, while LMB fight for space with walleye, who have an advantage over smallmouth bass, while spinach eating Popeye-sailor man grass carp are vegging out. Over there, in shallow water, laughing and munching, the HBG dart in and out, eating while trying not to be eaten. Then, spread an even helping of "productivity" around, and soon, you see fewer fish of each type as they thrive, while the other decline due to high competition, room rent and a run on the grocery stores.

Throw in one other factoid. Different individuals within each species exhibit different behavior. Some are aggressive, some are passive. Some grow fast, some grow slowly, just like all other creatures.

Here's the bottom line, from my beady little brain. A one acre pond, fed moderate amounts of fish food, will safely sustain 600-800 pounds of game fish. We can pick the combinations, but Mother Nature will choose the success, based on habitat, size distribution, growth rates, aggressiveness and luck of the predatory draw. (If a fish is eaten, is it our fault?)

Regarding the restocking question, the only way to know is to figure it out by regular monitoring of individual fish and their body condition. If regular samples of fish determine the little gems are overweight, the pond can support more. Stock a few. But, if the little toots are bit on the runway model side of size, there are too many, or not quite enough little food nuggets.

Now, what was the question?

I would like to request that all of the posts on this thread be left on the forum, and not edited or deleted.

Everyone should be able to read these postings and make their own decisions.

By the way, if any HSB fans are seriously concerned about the topics currently debated, a reference manual from the American Fisheries Society, CULTURE AND PROPAGATION OF STRIPED BASS AND IT’S HYBRIDS, edited by Reginal M. Harrell, Jerome Howard Kirby and R. Vernon Minton, is highly recommended.

It covers many of the points currently discussed on this topic

Thanks for the information Todd. As usual it appears that maximum lbs per acre depends soley on the pond owner's willingness to spend time and money on "his/her" project through feed, water quality, aeration, and upkeep. While I don't agree with you that most of the members here are into a lot of upkeep (rather they are individuals who want a "decent" pond for casual fishing), I do appreciate your taking the time to research that info for me. Differences of opinion are healthy... that is how we learn.

Regardless of our experiences, our jobs, our age, or any other factors I believe we can all agree that learning is a daily job for each of us. The day we refuse to learn from one other is the day we might as well ball up and die.

Thanks again,

Deb

Thanks to Todd for posting Bob Lusk's excellent remarks. In an effort to advance our collective knowledge of the subject, I'd like to raise a couple of points for further discussion.

First, Bob stated "an average pond owner can expect to grow as much as 400-600 pounds of HSB in a one acre pond, all things being even for the 'right' habitat"

I will yield to his superior wisdom, but it still sounds high to me based on my limited experience. It isn't 1000 pounds, but still sounds high. Larger HSB (larger than three pounds) suffer 100% mortality from angling in my ponds in summer temps, regardless of tackle used. This has made me question the sustainability of a large biomass of large HSB...not to mention the viability of the fish as a large pond predator. Is this observation unique to my pond only? Perhaps. I intend to do more experimentation on this question in the future as it bears significantly on the viability of HSB as a small pond predator to meet my pond objectives. Bruce is the only person I have read that has warned about this danger, and I now understand his warnings and respect him even more, if that is possible.

Second, Bob, in the paragraph on HBG, stated "A pond could grow as many as 1,000 pounds of HSB, but water quality issues would quickly follow."

Did Bob mean HBG in that paragraph or HSB? Or maybe both?

Larger HSB (larger than three pounds) suffer 100% mortality from angling in my ponds in summer temps, regardless of tackle used.

ML, how many 5 # summertime HSB have you caught and released during the life of your pond?

How do you monitor survivability?

None yet...that is what I plan to do this summer and what I meant in part by additional experimentation. My oldest HSB are just now approaching 5 pounds.

It is a "catch 22"...on the one hand I want to grow larger HSB, and on the other, I'd like to catch some during prime summer fishing times. Last summer, I shut it down completely to the extent I could when I observed the mortality from angling on the largest HSB fish...it isn't hard to recognize a dead 4 pound fish.

My temps in June through September run 100 daytime and 80 at night. Hence, the average pond water temps are around 85 degrees....much higher at the surface layers through which the HSB must fight when caught by a fisherperson. I wonder if the fight in that upper level of water which is probably at least 90 degrees is the death knell for the large HSB. I don't know, but intend to find out a lot more this summer.

This has been discussed before, because I remember reading a study that showed that stripers and hybrids were suseptable to high mortality if caught in the heat of summer. I don't think having them is the problem, it's catching them when it's hot out. You'd have to do a search to find link though, I don't have time.

I commend you for your HSB growth, as well as your fishing skills.

We first stocked 100, 4-6 inch HSB in the fall of 2003.
I rightly or wrongly recall that we first stocked about the same time?

With limited hot weather experience it is difficult for me take make survivability assumptions, but have yet to catch any over 3#’s.
We did have a LMB predation problem however, and not certain the numbers that survived.

Due to 7+ inches of rain in one day on new pond renovation dirt, our pond is muddy, so no 4 pounders to report this spring.

The link in this post which some have read has info on HSB summer temps and effects and raises some questions.

Looking for info on HSB in ponds. Check out this thesis link - study. It was the basis for a peer reviewed study which some may have. This is the longer version with some interesting charts on things like water charts on where they ate and avoided and how they effected other fishes including a regular LMB/BG pond.

http://uaex.edu/wneal/pages/Publications/Publications/manuscripts/thesis.pdf


Here is the thread link.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000450;p=1#000000

ealong59,

Catching them is kind of one of my objectives

Considering the amount of expensive feed they require to attain the growth I've experienced, eating them isn't enough to justify the feed costs for me. Catching them more than once in the summer would add to a justification for their existance in my ponds....just having them does not for me, personally.

ML
I'm not asking you to stop catching them, I don't think I could do that my own self, but you may have to fish very early or very late for your HSB to keep the mortality rate down.

Here's that link to those 2 studies on stripers, that have the same high mortality rates on summer catch and release.
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002407

You do have some TGG's you need to keep sampling, maybe the warmer part of the day's a good time for this. Just grab a pole with some light line or maybe a flyrod, and have at it, and I bet you'd have as much fun as the grandkids :p

Thanks for the link...and you know what, I'm not ashamed to say that catching those TGG's is as much fun for me as any fish I catch anywhere.

Well, ok maybe not as much fun as a Tarpon or bonefish, but its all fun, isn't it?

ML, was it you or George (or someone else) who posted the story of the HSB who "died with honor," literally giving everything he had fighting the line and then expired pretty much right after being landed?

They have many other good characteristics, but that post sold me on the HSB as a sporting fish.

That was me Theo...I thought it was a character attribute at the time. Only later, when I realized that every single one of the large ones was dieing in hot weather, did I realize it may be a character flaw instead of an attribute in the southern latitudes.

The more I know, the less I know.

I've also seen HSB die after a fight in cool water, but much more frequently in warm water. Another interesting note is that sometimes a HSB will suffer from a cramp after a warm water fight. They will curl up and can't draw oxygen. You can salvage many of these fish if you run them through the water, face first, rapidly back and forth. The air across the gills will allow them to "uncramp". It's a Kreb's Cycle thing, I guess. :rolleyes:

It's fun to fight a fish on light tackle, but hard on the fish - any fish.

I make a practice to land the fish quickly, do not handle (I use a Boga Grip), revive it as Buce suggests, and return it to the water as soon as possible.

For striped bass, I use 9 and 10 wt flyrods on Lake Texoma - not only to land fish as quickly as possible, but to turn the fish from mean structure.

The same holds true on our ponds - 5 wt for BG - 9 wt fly rod for LMB and HSB.

If you follow these practices your survival rate will improve dramaically.

George Glazener

I continue to sit in awe as I read the fish threads that you guys produce. The depth of your collective hypotheses and analyzation is fascinating...borderline geeky. 7 months ago, I didn't give a hoot about fish. Today, I can't help but be drawn in and continue to read on. This is the first time, tho, that I have encountered such an interesting set of "mortality challenges" for one species as has been noted WRT HSB (to you guys, this is probably "old hat"). When Bruce sums up: ...I have to read stuff like this twice and reassure myself that he's not goofin'....the fish neophyte sits here shakin' his head "whodathunk?" I'll be damned if I get caught off guard when the next post describes prescribed execution of the Heimlich maneuver on HSB to expel a deeply embedded hook.

Brettski,

Its all about knowledge....expanding it, capturing it, pushing it beyond the limits, so that everyone can benefit.

You do the same things with your posts, whether you realize it or not...you are expanding the collective knowledge of this community and that, my friend, is what its all about, for me.