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#77545 - 10/22/06 08:50 PM Nature: Asian Carp
Sunil Offline
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I was just watching a PBS show called "Nature: Animals Behaving Worse."

At about 40 minutes into the hour long show, they were discussing the Asian Carp problem.

While I didn't catch the whole segment, it did show carp just jumping out of the water all around moving boats.

Then the showed some Fish & Game guys with an electroshock unit; they put the boom in the water and turned on the juice, and the whole cove (maybe 100 x 100 feet) just started exploding with carp.

It was wild. You gotta see it.
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#77546 - 10/22/06 10:05 PM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
Brettski Offline
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I just watched the same show and it reminded me of that crazy video circulating somewhere in the PB forum of the guys in the fishing boat with fish flying all over the place.
I caught the entire segment. They said the fish are stimulated to jump out of the water by the boat motor as it passes. They had a rectangular net, maybe 5 ft tall x 6 ft wide, stretched across the bow of the boat like a sail to block the jumpers from impacting passengers while cruising.
The electro-shock seemed to stimulate 3 or 4 times the number of aerial fish.
Link to Nature show
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#77547 - 10/22/06 10:53 PM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
Sunil Offline
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Nice work, Brettski! You nailed it.

In that other video that was posted a few months back, I could never tell what type of fish they were.
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Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
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#77548 - 10/23/06 09:31 AM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
new_water_ways Offline
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Registered: 08/07/06
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Loc: Ava, Missouri
I saw that show as well, it really sadened me to think the rivers are so over crowded with these fish, talk about corrective stocking!!! Geesh. Any way, I don't know what they will do if they ever get into the Great Lakes. Just goes to show how someone with little knowledge can impact nature. I understand that when the south flooded these fish were washed into the rivers. Really sad. \:\(
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#77549 - 10/23/06 09:59 AM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
trialsguy Offline
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Registered: 05/03/06
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Loc: Mo.
It seems that since these fish seem really easy to harvest maybe they could use them as a food source or heck even a fertilizer since they seem so abundant.
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#77550 - 10/23/06 10:26 AM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
new_water_ways Offline
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trailsguy, that would be a good idea, although they said on the show that anglers didn't like to eat them as they have a lot of small bones. But you would think they could find something to do with them. When they shocked the water and they came jumping out all over the palce it would seam they would be easy to catch.
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#77551 - 10/23/06 10:44 AM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
trialsguy Offline
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Grind them babies up and make a high protein cat food or heck fish food.
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#77552 - 10/23/06 12:41 PM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
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I saw that show also. It was pretty wild to watch those carp come flying out of the water. Is this the same fish as the "grass carp" that is so restricted?
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#77553 - 10/23/06 02:43 PM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
Dave Willis Offline

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"Asian" carp refer to an entire suite of introduced species. The good old common carp (feed extensively on aquatic insects on the lake/river bottom) is incuded! However, the grass carp (true herbivore, eats plants), bighead carp (zooplankton), silver carp (phytoplankton - the microscopic plants), and black carp (molluscivore) are also in the "group." The silver carp are the ones that jump so much, hit people in boats, and commonly land in the boats.
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#77554 - 10/23/06 02:45 PM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
dave in el dorado ca Offline
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jeff, there is a sterile grass carp you can buy from hatcheries (dont know if legal in CA)....its a different strain than the asian carp...which i believe is the breeding gold colored "naturalized" carp you can catch all around out here (in the Sac and American rivers, and lakes like folsom, natomas etc.)
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#77555 - 10/23/06 02:49 PM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
dave in el dorado ca Offline
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thanks for the proper education there mr. willis.

so the hatcheries take the grass carp and somehow make them sterile??
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#77556 - 10/23/06 03:02 PM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
Dave Willis Offline

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Ah, DIED, now here's another complicated subject. I suspect the sterile grass carp you are referring to are the "triploid" grass carp. They are created by fooling around with the fertilization process. They have "3n" genetic material, as compared to the "2n" genetic material in diploid fishes, dogs, cat, humans, etc. By getting three sets of chromosomes instead of the standard two, the gametes are all messed up in the triploids and are not viable. There is a simple blood test based on the size of red blood cell nuclei that can certify the triploid status of a grass carp that you buy. Because of the extra chromosome in the nuclei, the red blood cells are measurably larger. \:\)

Now, the next obvious question is how do they create the triploids. Well, they can do it with any number of "shocks" to the eggs early in the fertilization process. So as not to drag this out, here is one technique that can be used. Grass carp normally spawn when water temperature is in the low 70s F. Biologists spawn the eggs from females and then add milt from the males. At 2 to 4.5 minutes after fertilization, they put the eggs in a cold-water bath 41-45 F for 25-30 min. That usually creates a high percentage of triploid individuals. However, some will invariably be diploid, so the blood test is needed to certify the triploids.

Once again, how's that for "too much information?" \:\)
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#77557 - 10/23/06 04:32 PM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
ewest Offline
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If you want to know more -- read on.

SRAC 427 Induction and Verification of Triploidy in Fish

http://srac.tamu.edu/fulllist.cfm

http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/13452410-427fs.pdf?CFID=13452410&CFTOKEN=70431263

Triploid fish have been produced by preventing the second meiotic division of the egg (after the sperm enters the egg). Therefore,two sets of chromosomes are contributed by the female and one set by the male (2n egg in sperm = 3n).

Triploids , kinda like sterile interspecific hybrids, normally cannot produce viable gametes because the extra chromosome cannot make a homologous pair at meiosis, meiosis is disrupted, and viable sperm and eggs are not formed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiosis

During meiosis, the genome of a diploid cell, which is composed of long segments of DNA called chromosomes, undergoes DNA replication followed by two rounds of division, resulting in haploid cells called gametes. Each gamete contains one complete set of chromosomes, or half of the genetic content of the original cell. These resultant haploid cells can fuse with other haploid cells of the opposite gender or mating type during fertilization to create a new diploid cell, or zygote. Thus, the division mechanism of meiosis is a reciprocal process to the joining of two genomes that occurs at fertilization. Because the chromosomes of each parent undergo genetic recombination during meiosis, each gamete, and thus each zygote, will have a unique genetic blueprint encoded in its DNA.
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#77558 - 10/23/06 04:50 PM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
dave in el dorado ca Offline
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Being all geo and no bio, DaveW and ewest, THANKS, this is a perfect example of why i love PondBoss.

Hey jeff......how's that for an answer? \:\)
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#77559 - 10/23/06 08:37 PM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
Theo Gallus Offline
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Registered: 05/14/04
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Dr. Dave:

IIRC a chemical shock can also be used to induce triploidy. Correct?
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#77560 - 10/23/06 09:07 PM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
ewest Offline
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This procedure is usually accomplished through chemical, thermal, or mechanical methods.
Chemical methods are primarily experimental and restricted to research laboratories. Thermal and
mechanical methods are commonly used in production facilities. Triploid fish are commercially produced by applying thermal or
pressure shocks shortly after water is added to the egg and sperm mixture. The precise timing of the second meiotic division and thus, the
application of treatment to induce triploidy, varies with the species of fish and water temperature.


** Note this is 1991 info and things may have changed somewhat.
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#77561 - 10/23/06 10:45 PM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
Dave Willis Offline

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Pretty darn cool, eh Theo??
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#77562 - 10/24/06 09:10 AM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
Theo Gallus Offline
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Registered: 05/14/04
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I will not be surprised if they use electrical stimulation or RF fields. \:D
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#77563 - 10/24/06 09:40 AM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
burgermeister Offline
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Registered: 02/27/05
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Theo Gallus:
I will not be surprised if they use electrical stimulation or RF fields. \:D
After working on radars for 10 yrs. and only I son in 7 yrs., I figured the RF had done the job. Then here comes another little surprise. Our 2nd son looks just like me. We didnt have a milkman. \:D
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#77564 - 10/24/06 11:19 AM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
jeffhasapond Offline
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Registered: 07/28/06
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 Quote:
Originally posted by dave in el dorado ca:
Hey jeff......how's that for an answer? \:\)
Ok, now my eyes are bleeding. \:D
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#77565 - 10/24/06 11:24 AM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
jeffhasapond Offline
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Registered: 07/28/06
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 Quote:
Originally posted by dave in el dorado ca:
jeff, there is a sterile grass carp you can buy from hatcheries (dont know if legal in CA)....its a different strain than the asian carp...which i believe is the breeding gold colored "naturalized" carp you can catch all around out here (in the Sac and American rivers, and lakes like folsom, natomas etc.)
Dave, I've looked into the Tripoloid grass carp and from the research that I have done (internet only so far) you can in fact get Tripoloid grass carp but it takes special permits and it involves inspection by the CA Fish & Game Dept, also you might be required to fence in the pond, etc. I wonder if this "gold" strain of carp is something different.

In other words you are subjected to the typical California carp! (see how I did a play on words there, dang I crack my self up sometimes). \:D
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"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)

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#77566 - 10/24/06 11:33 AM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
Theo Gallus Offline
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Registered: 05/14/04
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Back on the meds, please. :p \:D
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#77567 - 10/25/06 11:46 AM Re: Nature: Asian Carp
jeffhasapond Offline
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Registered: 07/28/06
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Theo Gallus:
Back on the meds, please. :p \:D
Awe come on Theo, where's the fun in that??? \:D
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"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)

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