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#73877 - 08/12/06 11:28 AM What's happening?
BarO Offline
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Registered: 01/23/05
Posts: 473
Loc: east Texas
Got back from 10 days on the east coast(son got married)and my pond (3/4 acre, 13' deepest, avg about 5') was down about 6 inches, so I started putting water(about 16 GPM) from deep well in 24/7 yesterday morning. This morning at 6am, there were fish (all 3 of my CC, all three of my 20# grass carp and about 5 12-15" bass and 2 11" CNBG) congregated at the well output line sucking for air. I noticed many small fish at the surface around the entire pond. I have run a bottom aerator in the deepest part of the pond 24/7 since first of June. Could I be experiencing a DO crash? I started my gas trash pump throwing water into the pond at 100GPM. Any suggestions or comments? Thanks
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20 acres of trees & 3/4 acre pond.

"Home of the future Texas state HSB record for Private ponds"

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#73878 - 08/12/06 01:15 PM Re: What's happening?
burgermeister Offline
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Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
Loc: Houston, Tx.
Turn off the well water asap. You have put 30,000 gal. of low O2 water in. As to whether to leave the aerator on or off, hopefully one of the aeration experts will post.
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#73879 - 08/12/06 01:25 PM Re: What's happening?
Bruce Condello Offline
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Is your water really clear? If so, you may have had an algae crash.

Does your water go through a pressure tank? If it does you can use horizontal aeration method I've outlined earlier.
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Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.

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#73880 - 08/12/06 05:11 PM Re: What's happening?
BarO Offline
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Registered: 01/23/05
Posts: 473
Loc: east Texas
The water has about 18-24" visibility and I have turned off the well water(about 8am). The well water is on a pressure tank so I will try the horizontal aeration method. I have been spraying water across the surface(100 GPM trash pump) for about 3 hours. The wind is blowing about 15MPH so I am getting some natural aeration too. The only casualties so far were two 11" CNBG (that were having a hard time staying vertical and next to shore) that we'll eat tonight.

Should I only add well water by spraying under pressure or having it splash on rocks?

Thanks for the other posts.
_________________________
20 acres of trees & 3/4 acre pond.

"Home of the future Texas state HSB record for Private ponds"

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#73881 - 08/13/06 11:13 AM Re: What's happening?
tecman Offline
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Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 56
Loc: Central Coast, CA
Sorry to hear about your fish.

Re: adding well water; I use venturi injectors placed at the bottom of the pond to mix air with the well water. Bruce's horizontal aeration would not work for me because my water tank is gravity fed to the pond so I only get about 20 psi. The injectors work really well for my application. In the summer I run about 20 gpm overnight every other day to maintain the level.

Here is the link to the manufacturer:
http://www.mazzei.net/agriculture/index.htm

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#73882 - 08/13/06 11:25 AM Re: What's happening?
Bruce Condello Offline
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I wouldn't bother to splash it. Then you're only adding O2 to the well water itself. If you buy a cheap sweeper nozzle and place it 1/2 inch under the surface and run full pressure, parallel to the surface of the water, you aerate BOTH the well water and all of the pond water that is disturbed by the agitation and circulation. In my opinion you'll get way more O2 mixing this way. My DO readings last summer went through the roof went I changed to this method. Lusk was out here taking pictures of the process last week.

I've now gone 12 months without losing a fish to O2 stress, which for me is pretty dang good.
_________________________
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.

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#73883 - 08/13/06 01:42 PM Re: What's happening?
tecman Offline
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Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 56
Loc: Central Coast, CA
BarO,
If you have the pressure available then I would agree that the circulation method is more efficient and cheaper. It's not practical for me. Here on the Central Coast of California off-peak energy costs can run as high as $0.36 kwh. That's an additional $130-$150 a month for me to use a pressure pump.

Bruce,
What do you mean by "splash it"?

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#73884 - 08/13/06 01:44 PM Re: What's happening?
Bruce Condello Offline
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I'm referring to "splash it" as the method of letting well water cascade over rocks or some other material before it hits the water. This is good and well for oxygenating the water that's entering the pond, but nothing for the pond itself, which probably represents hundreds of thousands of times more water volume than what's coming in from the well.
_________________________
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.

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#73885 - 08/13/06 03:26 PM Re: What's happening?
BarO Offline
Lunker

Registered: 01/23/05
Posts: 473
Loc: east Texas
Bruce,

Can you elaborate on the "sweeper noozle"? I am not sure what it is and where I can find one. I have a 1-1/2" PVC line running to the pond that runs 30PSI(approx 22GPM)wide open. I have a gate valve at the pond so I can reduce volume while increasing pressure, so my wife can enjoy some pressure in the house. The well house is about 175' from the pond and I have 88 Gal pressure tank that is switched 48/68 PSI.

I will put in the horizontal system ASAP if I knew what to get for sure. Is it patented yet?

Thanks in advance for your help. I had my 18-21" LMB hugging the shore this morning. Two 17"ers were floating along with 1 of my 3-CC(transplanted from my neighbor).
_________________________
20 acres of trees & 3/4 acre pond.

"Home of the future Texas state HSB record for Private ponds"

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#73886 - 08/13/06 03:34 PM Re: What's happening?
Bruce Condello Offline
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Available at any Tractor Supply Company or WalMart, etc.

Instead of paying $1.50 for a plastic one, go all out and spend four bucks for a brass attachment. They're for sweeping your driveway, hence the name "sweeper nozzle". I run them on all of my ponds and my pressure tank generally runs from 45 to 60 psi.

By the way...No patent yet, but if it works you need to buy the first round if we ever meet. \:\)

P.S. I will endeavor to get a better photo, possibly today. The setup as shown wasn't perfected yet. I actually set the nozzle another 1/2 inch higher which creates a nice frothy plume in front. This photo shows the surface disruption but it's not set properly.
_________________________
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.

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#73887 - 08/13/06 07:28 PM Re: What's happening?
BarO Offline
Lunker

Registered: 01/23/05
Posts: 473
Loc: east Texas
Bruce,

Thanks. I now have a 4 "sweeper nozzle" manifold on the end of the 1-1/2" pipe at the pond. It is now about 2" above the water line but shooting down at a 5 degree angle. You can actually see the water moving out about 25+ feet with lots of bubbles..... that's good, huh? I am maintaining 50 PSI at the pressure tank so the missus can have water in the house. Had about 10 more 15" bass floating this eve. I will run 24/7 til I have more DO than I know what to do with.

My fingers are crossed, hoping the morning brings a normal pond and not fish on the bank and skimming the top for air.

Many thanks again and the first & second round will be my treat.
_________________________
20 acres of trees & 3/4 acre pond.

"Home of the future Texas state HSB record for Private ponds"

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#73888 - 08/13/06 10:37 PM Re: What's happening?
Bruce Condello Offline
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Yes, that's very good. Make sure you can see the generalized circulation in the pond. 3/4 acre is a little bigger than my smaller ponds, but I think you should be OK. Experiment a little with the angles. Perhaps two nozzles could have the 5 degree orientation and two others could have zero degree and half of the exit hole above the water line. This gives lots of froth and lots of momentum to the water for general circulation. The concept is the same as an airlift aeration system, except the water is moving sideways in a circle instead of up and down from an airlift.
_________________________
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.

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#73889 - 08/14/06 08:37 AM Re: What's happening?
Theo Gallus Online   content
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Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 12394
Loc: Central Ohio
Should caution be applied when starting up horizontal aeration in a previously unaerated pond, like when an air injection aeration system is started up?

If so, what initial pond situations would need the most concern?
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"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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#73890 - 08/14/06 11:47 AM Re: What's happening?
Bruce Condello Offline
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Posts: 8854
Loc: United States
Good question, Theo.

I suspect that it's not as necessary to be cautious when implementing this system. My reasoning stems from personal observation. When I've started a traditional airlift system I've observed the water turning black for a couple of days because of the tremendous power of the system oriented just a foot or so off of the bottom of the pond. This seems to start a cascade of events that temporarily creates an oxygen sag and a strong hydrogen sulfide smell which I think is bad for the fish. Starting a horizontal system doesn't create this smell or "look". I hope everyone realizes (I've said this before ;\) ) that I'm not bad mouthing traditional systems--they work great! It's just that if you have a pressure tank and a small pond, horizontal aeration can become part of your armamentarium. If you factor in the cost of electricity to pump the water, my setup is cheaper to start, but probably quite a bit more expensive for long term use, unless you were going to pump the water anyway, in which case you get fresh influx and some additional O2, which is good.

OK, I'll shut up now. \:o
_________________________
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.

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#73891 - 08/14/06 01:41 PM Re: What's happening?
ewest Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19590
Loc: Miss.
Bruce :

How does your system (or does it) put O2 into the new water coming out of the system. I understand what happens when it hits the pond and how it works wrt that. Is there air added to the pumped/sprayed water?

Here is a excellent fact sheet on aeration (commercial).

Pond Aeration

http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/13098998-SRAC3700.pdf
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#73892 - 08/14/06 02:24 PM Re: What's happening?
Bruce Condello Offline
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Registered: 08/01/04
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Loc: United States
I think that in effect it acts like a traditional system in that only minor amounts of O2 are brought in initially (by high pressure disturbance at the air water interface) but high amounts of O2 are added by getting the water moving. Take some Kool Aid powder and sit it in the bottom of a glass, then carefully pour water over it. Now put your finger in the glass just barely under the surface and start to spin your finger round and round. Eventually the powder starts to mix due to the circular current. This is where I believe almost all of the O2 is added.

Low levels early, but where you need them, and higher amounts later on.
_________________________
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.

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#73893 - 08/14/06 08:13 PM Re: What's happening?
Rich777 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/10/06
Posts: 16
Loc: Quitman Texas
This topic has just stopped us from making a moumental error! Thank You Pondboss.

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#73894 - 08/14/06 08:18 PM Re: What's happening?
Rich777 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/10/06
Posts: 16
Loc: Quitman Texas
monumental. Glasses, Richard, Put your glasses on!

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#73895 - 08/14/06 09:22 PM Re: What's happening?
ewest Offline
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Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19590
Loc: Miss.
So all the O2 is added by water movement in the pond and not by the system before the water sprays.

What about water temps (cold coming out) Have you seen any effect on plankton bloom ?
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#73896 - 08/14/06 09:43 PM Re: What's happening?
Bruce Condello Offline
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Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 8854
Loc: United States
Rich777! Explain what you mean. I'm curious.

I'll tell you something ewest that you'd find amazing.

In my little .15 acre pond I have 20+ gpm of 54 degree well water spraying into an 84 degree pond. If you get a mere 5 feet in front of the nozzle the difference in H20 temp is unmeasurable. Maybe .5 degrees at the most! I was astounded by this fact. I thought the differential would be a lot more, but it's not. Consequently the only effect the cool water has had on the pond is that the overall temperature of the pond seems to stay about 2 degrees lower than my 1.25 acre pond. And that I can't even say for certain is from the cool water spray. No effect on plankton that I can discern. Same species and same concentrations as other ponds. One thing I've noted is that the algae stays more consistant day to day and week to week. Lusk says this is because of the circulation.
_________________________
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.

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#73897 - 08/14/06 10:00 PM Re: What's happening?
ewest Offline
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Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19590
Loc: Miss.
Thanks Bruce . I would think that the small pond would have better O2 carrying ability with lower water temps. Another small advantage.
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#73898 - 08/14/06 10:50 PM Re: What's happening?
Rich777 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/10/06
Posts: 16
Loc: Quitman Texas
Bruce,
We recently built a new home in a rural developement surrounding a approx. 60 acre lake. A well managed lake with a strong harvest, stocking,FA,lilly pad, fertilization program. I know this is boring stuff, but the lake team is top notch. I was fourtunate to be asked to join the team( jumped on it ). History out of the way, this is our situation.
We have access to an old deep water well that was used as the water supply for the developemnt before the rural water system was installed.
We kicked around the idea of bringing the old well back on line, running poly pipe to the lake and turn it on. Let the well put water back in the lake. Just open ended to the lake.
Like everyone in our area we need rain, the well seemed like a good solution to at least keep up with evaporation.
This topic caught my eye and I read through it. WHOA! I e-mailed the president of the lake team and asked him to take a look.
Bruce I have fished Fork for years. The fishery these guys have built here is awesome. The LMB are the strongest I have ever set a hook on. The thought of fish floating because we made an honest mistake was scary. I cannot thank Pondboss and all posters enough. This one topic probably saved a fishery.
We would still like to use the well. Reading the posts above I see alot of good ideas! Keep them coming. Thanks

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#73899 - 08/15/06 01:13 AM Re: What's happening?
dave in el dorado ca Offline
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Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 3261
Loc: el dorado ca
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Condello:
..........
I'll tell you something ewest that you'd find amazing.

In my little .15 acre pond I have 20+ gpm of 54 degree well water spraying into an 84 degree pond. If you get a mere 5 feet in front of the nozzle the difference in H20 temp is unmeasurable. Maybe .5 degrees at the most! I was astounded by this fact. I thought the differential would be a lot more, but it's not. Consequently the only effect the cool water has had on the pond is that the overall temperature of the pond seems to stay about 2 degrees lower than my 1.25 acre pond. And that I can't even say for certain is from the cool water spray. No effect on plankton that I can discern. Same species and same concentrations as other ponds. One thing I've noted is that the algae stays more consistant day to day and week to week. Lusk says this is because of the circulation.
Thermodynamics is a cool subject...Ha

Bruce, are your temp. measurements inclusive of the greatest depths in the pond? Waters of varying temperatures and chemistries stratify and form currents within the overall body of water. Without the good circulation this is what happened to BarO, now thankfully corrected. You might find that the bottom of your little pond is quite a bit colder than your bigger pond.

Water is an amazing sink of thermal energy. The amount of energy required to raise or lower the overall temp. a few degress within a large static body of water is huge.
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#73900 - 08/15/06 08:24 AM Re: What's happening?
Bruce Condello Offline
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Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 8854
Loc: United States
I apparently have great circulation because I did a water profile a couple weeks ago and the water temp is the same all the way to the bottom in all parts of the pond. No thermocline--no nuthin'. Wild, isn't it? As best I can tell the net temperature is about the same as in the big pond, which has higher surface temperatures, but a nice cool deeper area.

It's all a surprise to me. Somebody told me my name yesterday and I was surprised at that too.
_________________________
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.

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#73901 - 08/15/06 10:20 PM Re: What's happening?
bz Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 844
Loc: Minnesota
In another thread someone said that engineers are always thinking. I think that at least one particular dentist does more thinking than most of us. I could just see the advertisement - "Invented by a dentist so you know it will work in your pond"
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