Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations TGG Experiment Results

The url listed below contains 1) a synopsis of the experiment 2) pictures of each sampling event including initial on Dec. 3 '05, end of Dec. '05, Feb. '06, and April '06, followed by a summary data table.

If there are any questions on the approach or if the data is unreadable, please advise.

http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slideshow.js...7&Uy=ravcw&Ux=0

Were you able to catch any of the HBG to do a comparison?

DD,

Sorry don't understand the question...the pictures shown are of the TGG's. I don't have any other HBG on my place other than the TGG's. I have CNBG and native BG in other ponds. Are the pictures visible to you?

Robinson,

As stated on the synopsis page, the pond is 1/4 acre and designed for Kid's fishing. Are the pictures visible?

Pretty exciting to finally see a photo of GG's.

ML, when these fish get up to 7+ inches, which I'm sure is gonnna be pretty dang quick, can you get a closer picture of the head?

Thanks,

Bruce

Bruce, they are already over 7 inches...the average is 7.3 inches right now. The largest of the three fish sample shown was 7.5 inches. I will try to accomodate your request for a "head" shot.

ML, I thought you had HBG, not HSB in there. Guess I need to learn to read.

No LMB present...unless delivered by a bird.

The whole point of stocking an aggressive predator was to reduce/eliminate the Fx generations for pond sustainability....just as Deb has stated many times.

We have a long ways to go before ANY conclusions can be reached.

ML, I think you are going to have some very happy kids when they "discover" this pond.

Ml, if you have the same results as I did with GG they will grow alot this first summer
Good Luck
Bill

Robinson, why is it an artificial environment; HBG and HSB is the common recommended stocking strategy. "because of the 40 hybrids, which are rare to virtually non existant in most southeastern US ponds, ". What does this mean? They can be stocked in any pond in the Southeast. of course, as anywhere else, they are not naturally occurring.
Go fishing, or tell about your pond or something.

Now, now, boys, keep playing nice. Here in Ohio ANY pond is an "artificial environment,", seeing as how the state has ONE natural lake.

BTW, ML, it has been implied but not mentioned that your link shows 6 screens of data. Text is legible, photos look good. When I get home I will compare photo resolution from Feb pic with the E-Mail version, may download the April pic to blow it up.

Way cool...even I understand it (must be because it was geared to a kid's GG pond). I start to read most of the threads you fish-nutz dissect, and my head spins. I keep a paper bag next to the keyboard, JIC. So far the ML GG EXP is v interesting to even the fish neophyte.

Theo,

I'm kind of proud of that April picture...not being a skilled camera person...and getting three flopping fish to hold still and smile at the same time.

ML, any worries on HSB in such a small pond? Wouldn't a pond that small get very warm unless you have a spring or well?

ML:

Three at once is more than I try to photograph, unless they're on a stringer. I spend an average of 3 shots to usually get a decent picture of one live fish (even the ones that I'm getting ready to clean).

PI:

You'd better add "and for the young at heart" to that statement. Every time my bobber goes under, part of me is 6 again.

Bobad,

Yes, that is definitely a concern and coupled with no aeration and shallow water in that pond will make this a very difficult test for both the HSB and the TGG's. If they can survive this environment through the Texas summers, then they can survive most anything.

Night aeration is forthcoming? ML, check your email.

Is there some trick ta view the pics?

Bob-o - Use this link:

http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slideshow.js...7&Uy=ravcw&Ux=0

A new screen should appear. Above the original image on the right side is three buttons. "play' and two arrows "<" ">" ! Click on the far arrow and you should go to the next photo which is the stocked size GG. Keep clicking the same arrow untill you have seen all the photos. If that does not work type colonmadcolon (a colon is ":") Hope this helps.

It is the middle of the night and I can't sleep anyway!

Does anyone have a "textbook" answer as to what the normal growth rate is for regular BG? I know it has a wide variability depending on several factors. I would like to have a benchmark comparison to the data I am seeing and recording. I'm recording it as "growth rate in inches per day" but can easily convert it to any units. Thanks for any info.

ML :

Look at this link which is BG RW and it is a place to start. I will see what else I can find. Chart is at the end of the article.

http://www.lakework.com/articles.php

Yes, I have RW tables for BG but was looking specifically for growth rates correlated to age. Thanks.

I thought so and will see what I can find. I know it will vary based on location and conditions.

PI said,"Easily eating sized, but I don't recall them being as big as the GG's in your picture. Then again, the ones I have seen were not on a regular feeding program. " What, is he softening up, nah, he puts a disclaimer about the feeding program.

PI, that is the kind of thing that really is contradicting. I here and read about little green sunfish after a few generations. Then here comes this pic of a 5 pounder as round as a big plate from a 20 yr. old stocking of GG. Either this was a 17-18 yr. old fish, or it was an f-15 with mostly bluegill characteristics. I really wonder what the deal is. Was this fish aged by any method I wonder?

The article said 300 times growth rate; I'm sure they meant 300% gwowth rate, or 3 times.

That fish is an enigma to me. 17 to 18 years old is the equivalent of us living two lifetimes.

If you agree that faster growing Southern fish don't live as long as slow growing Northern fish my above statment makes sense.

I'm not sure what it looks like. Other than a freak of nature.

Is there a picture of Bubba somewhere?

OK, maybe it was F-1 or F-2 that turned into a hog or "HAWG". An F-1 or 2 could still live 10 years. Given lots of high protien food or even abundant natural forage, it could still make it. But, I'm still not sure what it really was or what it's genetic makeup would have to be to get that size. Strange piscator!

Bubba's a freak even Deb says so
Dave I just used a bad word in the Southern Saying thread if you want to go be the free speech police.

No you didn't, Duggan. Dont worry about it.
Hey, Meadowlark, since this is your thread, would you please summons Debra King to give an input on the details, if any, regarding testing, aging of Bubba? Debra's pretty shy, so ask her nicely to post if you would.

tnx

Here's yer picture of Bubba, Shorty.

Burger,

I wouldn't hesitate to ask Deb, if it were relevant to the experiment. I see no relevance at all to the experiment which is about evaluating growth rates, aggressiveness, and sustainability of the GG's as delivered from their fish farm. I certainly have no expectations of raising 5 pound TGG, nor has Deb or anyone associated with their business ever made such a claim to me.

It is interesting to me that no one is discussing the results of the experiment. How many of you expected to see a TGG over 7.5 inches 4 winter months after stocking? How many times have you been told that it is a waste of time to stock fish during the fall/winter because they will not grow until spring? These fish have grown each and every month since they arrived...the photos do not lie. How many CNBG reach 7.5 inches in April after stocking as a 4.5 inch fish in December? I've never seen it and it is shocking to me....if you all experience that, then I'm sorry to show my ignorance because I've never seen such a thing in my lifetime of observing fish.

I certainly did not expect to see all fish above 7 inches at this point in time. That bottom fish in the April picture was a pig! It was over 3.25 inches in girth. I was very surprised by that fish and that all three fish caught were over 7 inches, even before the growing season has started.

I've requested Bill Cody to provide a baseline growth rate for BG in the south. Bill has promised to research that request. I really want to see what we are dealing with here...and I must admit to a great deal of surprise at what I am seeing. I expected these fish to grow...wouldn't have been surprised to see the growth take off after the water warmed, but this kind of growth in the winter is really shocking to me.

I honestly believe the growth is due in part to the Gambusia minnows and the GG's propensity to feed on them. I have reported that the GG's have absolutely had their way with the Gambusia from the first day they arrived...on mornings of 32 degrees I have seen GG's attacking Gambusia. I would never have believed that. Also interesting to me, is that I see very little evidence of GG feeding at the artificial feeder. The water is turbid, but it appears to me that the principal fish at the feeder is the HSB, not the GG. They are very easy to distinguish even in turbid water.

The experiment is just heating up. Maybe the growth rates will not be sustained, maybe the Gambusia will be eliminated. maybe the pond will fill up with greenies as Robinson claims, but at this early point in the experiment, even if no one else is surprised, I am surprised at what I am seeing.

Burger, ask Deb about Bubba if you want...I'm a lot more interested in what I am seeing right before my own eyes and in what is going to happen in the next few months. Thanks all.

ML, I guess the thread did get skewed off topic, didnt it? It started out with me trying to deflect off topic comments, then when the 5 pounder was mentioned that naturally caught a lot of attention.
Regarding winter growths, I was given 2 1/2 inch RES in Nov. and was told that they may spawn as 4 to 5 inchers in April. Your GG growth rates are really astonishing. They must be a feeding machine if they can eat enough gambusia in turbid water to get that big. Do you ever see them around the shallows chasing? Is there cover for the gambusia to keep reproducing? They may need more and larger forage soon. Have you caught any that appeared to have been caught before? What does your fly resemble? Lots of questions.
One more. How do they fight?

ML, I did not winter feed my GG for the first two years and were still amazed at the winter growth. I wish now I had kept records as you are

Burger,

First question, yes every time I go to the pond they are hiting Gambusia right along the shoreline. From day one that has been the case.

Second question, no there is no cover for the Gambusia. I expect them to disappear but so far thay have held their own...an amazing result in and of itself.

I am thinking very hard about stocking Tilapia for additional forage...but it is a very small pond, without aeration, and with 40 HSB. The Texas summers are brutal. This pond is very shallow. I'm still thinking about it.

No, I have not caught any that appeared to have been caught before...although that will/may have happened because little Bethany caught 38 of them two weeks ago...thats 38 out of 200.

The fly I used for the first aggressiveness test was just a regular Bead Head (BH) zug bug. It is usually very effective on BG. I didn't expect the GG's to win that first test and they didn't because I was not using a minnow imitation fly. When I use my " Gambusia" fly, I expect the GG's will tear it up. We will see.

How do they fight? Well they do not go in circles like a BG, more straight line fight...but remember this is still very early in the experiment...the fish have only been here 4 months in the dead of winter...lets see what happens in spring and summer....the brutal Texas summer awaits.

ML, re: stocking tilapia, would this be for the HSB? I was thinking golden shiners for the GG for when the water quality goes down and you have to slow or stop feeding. You could put up the blocking net for sanctuary. The shiners will take off in the heat. Some should get large enough for forage for the HSB. Not sure if you could put gambusia with them behind the net. They may eat the young ones. Maybe someone with experience will weigh in.

Here is an update....recall that I requested some baseline data for comparison in growth rates.

Bill Cody kindly sent me some data which I converted to my units (and kept a suspect very high data point of 203mm for the growth rates).

The baseline data for Texas in the first year of growth says that BG achieve .012 inches per day. The TGG thus far, through winter months (unlike the baseline data which is across the entire year) have achieved .023 inches per day or about twice the rate of the BG in Texas.

There you go, now that's some data to chew on....assuming my math is correct.

ML, I have a request that you take some closeups of TGG mouth/gill/opercule areas in future samplings, if possible.

The last batch of pictures were great shots of the whole fish.

Here's some more analysis results from the data Bill Cody sent me.

Baseline BG rate for Louisiana = .013
Baseline BG rate for Tennessee = .015
Baseline BG rate for Alabama = .011
Baseline BG rate for Texas = .012
Growth rate for TGG for winter months = .023
All rates expressed in inches per day


Theo, yes your request will be met.