Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Sunday Evening Poll

I think it is much, much more likely (hate to say always or never) to be Bruce's mutually beneficial evolution explanation.

I had a close opportunity over the weekend to observe how marvelously well adapted the influenza virus (or at least one of it's many variations) is to spread itself through the human population.

The flu can be picked up by breathing, ingestion, or skin contact which is later transferred to mucous membranes such as your eyes or nose. After infecting a human, what does it do? It makes a gazillion copies of itself which it procedes to distribute in various clever ways throughout the human environment, by forcing it's host to expel virus particles in every conceivable manner (sneezing and coughing being two fairly non-disgusting examples). The human is aggravated into expelling flu particles to the point of exhaustion. The flu even preys on the social nature of humans by making us sick enough to draw other humans into close proximity to assist in caring for us. The flu strains that can produce this response quick enough to replicate and distribute themselves before the human immune system finally takes the upper hand, without killing the human host (a dead host doesn't move around other humans and sneeze or cough on them, so most of the time we live) are the most successful ones.

Is the flu doing this instinctively? I don't think any of us would argue that it was. The flu strains that are the most successful at replicating and spreading are the ones most likely to live to infect another human, passing their traits on to the next batch of flu.

I can't rule out the use of instinct in the case of birds stocking ponds, but it is clear to me that instinct is not at all necessary for the event to happen.

Theo, your last sentence clarifies a lot for me. I appreciate what you are saying about how events happen due to no cause by instinct.

Regardless of where our dicussion end up, I'm not looking to have a conclusion. Although, Brettski may have found the missing link.

There is a parasite that lives in herons that transfers to the fish during the catching process, if the heron fails the parasite resides in the fish and influences the fishes behavior. The fish becomes lackadaisical and is easily caught, the parasite moves back to the heron and the process starts again. Could be a similar arrangement, parasite give bird diarrhea, fish passes alive in new pond?

"Parasite give bird diarrhea, fish passes alive in new pond?"

Aha! Now I see. The parasite instinctively gives the bird diarrhea and the bird runs, so to speak, instead of flying. Since it is running as it runs, it deposits fish eggs in hoofprints, mud puddles, and the next pond. What a great life-cycle.

Ain't science wonderful?
Lou

I've chimed in on this subject in the past but it will never go away, so I will put my 2 cents in again. I am not aware of any scientific proof or notation supporting the stocking of fish or fish eggs by birds into previously "fishless water". I am in northern California in the middle of what is arguably one of the most fertile fish areas in this country. My pond is less than 200 yards from a fertile brook (about 100' in elevation above it). In addition there are numerous ponds, creeks and lakes including Clear Lake within minutes of flight time of my pond. My pond was 18 years old when I bought the property and there was not a fish in the pond. It was absolutely full of frogs and other amphibians and more insects and larvae than you could imagine. It was also home to a variety of waterfowl which would be the likely vector for transplanting fish or eggs. I stocked the pond and in 6 years was catching truly huge fish, so fertility of the pond was not an issue to explain the sterile fish enviornment. I have subsequently met several other people in the area who have had the same experience as me. I am not suggesting that this is proof of a theorem, but the number of reported spontaneous eruptions of fish will always be suspect to me. As a younger person and particularly as a teenager I was always spiriting fish into strange waters, and while I started growing the odd hair in new places then, they never looked like feathers until recently.

Cecil said
"he believes the eggs may be sticking to the webbed feed of visiting birds and transferred to nearby ponds." I then wonder how these "stuck" eggs get off the webbed feet of visiting birds. Carp and goldfish eggs are very adhesive. Once stuck to something the eggs are literally glued to the surface. They will not just drop off when the bird relands somewhere.

I vote NO. I need more proof than sticky eggs. Mosquito (Gambusia) fish do not lay eggs.

No, it's not "instinct", but yes it happens, there are "Smart Birds". In fact, some Birds are smarter than some Humans.

Can YOU get to the Moon ? NO, but the smartest men can. Take away your electricity, can you re-create it ? Probably not.

Also, being the source of this topic...I sure hope someone told that blue heron on lake grapevine where the lake ended, and someone's pond begins...because I witnessed him relocating a crappie he couldn't eat ! After he ate 5 crappie, and couldn't stomach the extra one we threw at him ! He's a lot smarter than you give him credit.

Every evening swifts skim the surface of my pond, I think they are drinking, but I would guess that they also pick up all sorts of eggs, larvae and an occasional fry. Who is to say that all are digested, what if Gambusia are indigestible? Some things might just thrive in that warm, moist bile, yuk, some people drink diet Mountain Dew so I think it's possible.

Jim,

Maybe your birds aren't the same as ours in the South. From my observations, there is no doubt that birds are a vector for fish. Do they instinctively do it? I haven't observed any behavior to support this, but it's possible. Nature always seems to find a way. There are many complex symbiotic relationships in nature. Many of these instinctive behaviors are far more astonishing than simply dropping fish or fertile fish eggs in a nearby body of water.