Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations pier building questions

I'm getting ready to build a wooden fishing pier and have mostly made up my mind about how I want to do it. It's going to be 6' wide, 16' long, and near the end on each side I'm going to build two benches to sit on. It will have a swim ladder at the end, and the end will overhang past the last pilings. I decided not to put a roof on it as it won't really be wide enough, and I don't want to make a large platform and make it look out of place on a small .3 acre pond. I'm going to put the pilings in place and let them sit until the pond is full, and then finish the dock once I know where the "normal" water level will be.

Anyways I'm trying to decide on two things before starting:

a) There is alot of limestone rock and it's not going to work to dig deep postholes. I was thinking of digging postholes as deep as I could, and then using sono tubes or maybe even forming up some "boxes" around the posts to fill with sackrete above the pond bottom.

b) Can I get away with treated 4x4s for this project?

Any ideas would be much appreciated, and I'd also love to see pics of everyone else's docks. (Already read and read again the pier building thread)

Thanks,
Eric

Eric,
Your "a" point sounds reasonable. Besides, I don't think this is a project that warrants blasting. If you were REALLY concerned for bearing stability and horizontal shear, you could drill and grout epoxy coated #4 rebar dowels into the bedrock...jeesh, that would be overkill and I highly doubt it would be needed. Most of the piers that I have seen on this forum set the vert timbers right into the concrete and it sounds like you plan the same. I cannot argue with that method...it's as old as the hills. For me, I still see my near future project with a concrete pier supporting a SS post anchor and going up from there.
WRG to the 4 x 4's. Upgrade to 6 x 6. 4 x 4's will twist and crack. Yes, 6 x 6 will also, but the additional mass will reward with additional integrity and stability. If you are planting these things permanently in concrete, git it rite the first time. Don't pull up short.
For my/our benefit, and most importantly, take pix and show us your progress. I'm relyin' on you guys to keep me pumped.

edit/footnote: is there any fear of compromising your pond "seal" by drilling down to a rock layer???

One more reason to upgrade from 4"x4"s to 6"x6"s - since the 6"x6"s carry a heavier load, you won't need to dig as many holes in your difficult limestony soil.

For what it's worth, Eric, I think you can get away just fine with two posts in the pond and two at the edge of the bank. My own dock is constructed like this. It uses four 12 foot 2"x8"s to span from the shore posts to the pond posts. Width-wise, the posts are 6' center to center; the deck is made of 2"x6"s which stick out about 8" past the 2"x8" joists. It is very stable. I used 5" diameter treated fence post stubs for on shore and 6" diameter hedgeapple posts in the water.

If you want a little more margin of error, use 16 foot 2"x10"s for the joists; you should be able to cantilever the last 4' of these out past the pond posts (as you described above) without any problem.

Thanks for the info. I'll go with the treated 6x6s, for only 4 long timbers there won't be a huge cost difference. I can buy one 6' 6x6 timber to cut in two for the two on the shore. I probably don't have much in the way of options for the footers other than putting them "above ground".

I have a design in mind I'm pretty happy with but if you guys have any ideas I'm all ears. I was going to sink the 2 short timbers into the bank, and then the four long 6x6's farther out at the bottom of the slope of the bank in a "square" shape. The two timbers on each side out in the water would be 5'-6' apart. 2x8's would run on the outside of each side and cantilever 3' past the last 6x6 timber on each side. The end would also be finished with a 2x8. I would probably need to run two more 2x8's down the middle to properly support the deck planks. Then 2x4's widely spaced for the planks so rain could run through easily. The benches will be made out of 2x4s or 2x6s in between the 6x6s that are out in the water ... one bench on each side ... facing each other ... a sturdy plank or two behind each on the outside of the 6x6s for a backrest. These backrest planks will be screwed in rather than nailed. I'm plannning to use SS nails throughout, put an aluminum or SS folding swim ladder on the end, and copper or synthetic caps on top of the 6x6s ... going to leave the timbers sticking up high that the benches are between.

Eric,

If you are bumping the post size up to 6x6's, I would consider using shoulder cuts for additional joist support. With the extra material the 6x6 offers, this should not pose a problem.

Just an opinion.

Eric:
I saw these deck brackets at the hardware store the other day. They look very sturdy and are relatively inexpensive... in case you're interested. http://www.2x4basics.com/other-products.asp

Eric,
One thing to keep in mind is that any pressure treated lumber that sits outside in the weather for any length of time will become very hard. You will probably have to drill pilot holes just to drive nails in it. Also, all of the piers that I have built have been built after the lake was full and I secured the bank posts in concrete and the lake posts are just sitting on the bottom of the lake. I usually attach a 5 gallon bucket to the bottom of lake posts so I could move them around easier in the water. I have never had a problem with the lake posts settling very much.
Bill

Brettski, sorry I forgot to answer your question about the pond seal. I wouldn't be too worried about drilling in the limestone because it's not solid ... just chunks and rocks here and there in the soil. But I don't think drilling will be necessary. The part of the pond that has water in it is holding water good and I don't want to take any chances. I've already put a few hundred pounds of bentonite in the bottom and banks too.

Schroeder, that is exactly the type of benches I had in mind, I'll have to check out those brackets.

I don't have electricity out there so the wood will need to be cut with a chainsaw. I'll also have a cordless drill out there.

I know that I have already provided this link elsewhere, but it's worth duplication if it inspires additional thought: Tommy Docks

Here is something intereseting that might work if you didn't want to drill into or dig into the clay bottom. You could replace the paper sonotubes with smooth wall CPP and place these things on the bottom. I might try these on a bridge design this summer if I can find a local supplier. Bigfoot

Instead of 6x6s I would recommend using three 2x6s laminated together with waterproof construction adhesive and screws. This will greatly decrease the chances of warping or spliting. The 2x6s will also be treated more thoroughly compared to 6x6s.