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#63904 01/25/06 01:26 PM
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I've been lurking around lately just enjoying all the chatter. One thought on building a pond. My pond is a dug pond. I hired the first phase of digging and then dug a good portion myself. The guy that started my pond in an experienced pond builder, he gave me a piece of advise that turned out to be golden for my situation. He insisted that the banks should be as steep as the soil type will allow. The reason is to control rooted vegetation. I've ready so many posts about guys how have weed infested ponds but in my case the weeds can only grow within 5 feet from shore and where I have islands, therefore I don't have a problem. The weeds only grow where you want them to grow. I also have very dark colored water which helps this work for me. Just a thought.


Gotta get back to fishin!
#63905 02/03/06 10:22 AM
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Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.
#63906 02/03/06 10:29 AM
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Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.
#63907 02/03/06 10:35 AM
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Sorry, nothing I typed showed up!!! LOL

The picture of my backhoe is next the the spring I asked about in another post. It's in the bottom of my lake. I found water coming out of the ground after digging down with the dozer.

I stoped digging with it and brought in the backhoe. I dug down four feet or more in the whole area you see as a small pond, and then maxed out my depth in the corner up front.

I have a maximum depth of 14 feet and a flat bottom depth of 12 feet. I maxed it out. I also hit some small gravel at the very bottom. There are veins of iron ore on my land, but otherwise it's all clay.

The water level filled up the deep hole overnight, then the rest rose about half a foot a day. Just as the rains started, it was about full.

Now it's overflowing at a steady rate, but nothing to brag about.

The other picture shows how I had to extend my drainage ditch to keep the water level down. Rain and the spring are givng me more water than I'm ready for.

Eddie


Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.
#63908 02/03/06 01:28 PM
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Now for a question.

I've been reading about drains and the advantages of having one, which I'm thinking might be a good idea.

The picture is of two variations that I'm considering.

The top picture shows a drain pipe through the dam and the discharge pipe being at the height I want the water in the lake. This will keep the water level from overflowing to the spillway except for extreme weather.

I've seen this type of discharge around this area and think they are kid of messy with all the water splashing down from the height of the pipe.

In the bottom picture, I've added a down pipe after two 90's that connects into a discharge pipe after the drain valve.

Will this work?

One of my reasons for doing a drain line on the bottom of the pond is so it will also pick up some silt when the water level is up. Will looping the overflow pipe back into itself affect this?

My other question is about picking up silt. I realize that the suction from the pipe is limited to the imediate area when the water level is draining through the drain pipe.

What would happen if I used a perforated pipe and spread it out over a larger area at the deepest area of my lake? Would this pick up more silt over a larger area?

I sure hope this makes sense to you guys!!

Thanks,
Eddie




Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.
#63909 02/03/06 01:30 PM
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One more question.

Does it make sense to pour concrete between two anti-seep collars instead of trying to compact it without destroying the collars?

Would two sets of two collars, 24 inches square, 12 feet down on a six inch pipe be sufficiant?

Thank you,
Eddie


Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.
#63910 02/03/06 01:46 PM
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Eddie,

Looks like great fun man. I'm doing the same thing myself this year with my D5 on a somewhat smaller scale. With a regular drain pipe I wouldn't think you'd draw much silt, in fact, you need to raise the intake off the bottom somewhat to keep it from silting in, but with a siphon, maybe. Perf pipe might work if you did it right. I've never done this but I would think you'd need to cut the perf pipe to a particular length, then cap the open end. The total area of the holes in that length of perf pipe should add up to approx the same cross sectional area of the siphon pipe. That would give you a good velocity around the intake holes in the perf pipe. Too many holes and the velocity would go down around the holes.

I'd consider a siphon system if I were you. My pond will have a pretty good watershed feeding it and I'm going with a siphon and earth spillway for two reasons. The siphon will carry much more flow in the same size pipe than a regular thru pipe and the siphon pipe can go thru the dam near the top where there is less head pressure on the face of the dam. The siphon also functions as a regular drain pipe for steady state flows like springs, when it's not in siphon mode. I haven't installed one yet I'm just regurgitating what I've learned.

Good luck, looks great.

#63911 02/03/06 03:05 PM
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Thanks TN,

You bring up a good point. Will the siphon system work better?

Which one will have more suction for silt, especially if I do the slots?

Eddie


Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.
#63912 02/03/06 04:24 PM
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EW,
This is the first time that I have seen a stand-pipe BEHIND the dam as a principal overflow...probably reveals my relative rookie status at this. My principal spillway design will use a pair of 12" diam smooth bore corr. plastic drain pipes set at normal pool, horiz thru the dam and then angled downward (still within the dam) to discharge at point even with the grade behind the dam. The actual drain will be exactly as you depict in your dwg, minus any standpipes or the like...it will continue on a horiz (minimal slope) to a similar area just short of the principal discharge. I am going to leave the end buried at a point that is still below the frost line and mark it with a stake. I hope I never have to use, but if I do...a little digging and let 'er rip.
I would be concerned for a principal spillway that is deep underwater...what happens if it gets clogged? This is the reason I am using 2 principals...to increase the odds if one gets clogged. And, even then, it ain't much to clear 'em.

#63913 02/03/06 04:31 PM
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The siphon would create more suction than figure two with the valve closed (it looks like the closed loop comes up near the pond surface), but only when in actual siphon mode. When it goes into siphon mode you have a real head for the flow, depending on the elevation diff between the pond surface and the outlet of the pipe. Say the outlet of the pipe is 4 ft below the pond level. When siphoning you have a true 4 ft head, which creates a good bit of vacuum, about 1.7 psi which is pretty strong. Of course with the figures you posted above, you'd have plenty of head, way more than 4 ft. when you opened the valves wide open, in either figure you'd have a lot of suction with the valve open. But one thing I really like about the siphon is that when the water is really flowing into the pond in a heavy rain and bringing in a lot of silt the siphon kicks in without having to turn on the valve, so the siphon is drawing with strong suction during the event (without me being there), near the bottom where most of the larger suspended particles should be. I'm leary of any pipe thru the dam, so I like the fact that the siphon can pass thru the dam at a higher water level. I'm sure either way would work fine.

#63914 02/03/06 08:55 PM
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EW,
Unless I am reading your intent wrong, I would maintain serious concern for providing suitable flow for a principal spillway. You have indicated that you may have many acres of run-off feeding your pond. This, combined with the acre-feet of containment at normal pool, are driving factors in providing correct out-flow. It appears that your project may approach 30 - 40 acre feet...just a guess. If this is combined with 50 - 100 ac of run-off, your principal spillway pipe diameter better be substantial....likely a pair of 12" dia or one 18" - 24" dia. This is where I may be mis-reading you. It appears that you plan on using a drain pipe at the base of the dam as a principal outlet. This being the case, you will need a similar cross section as noted above.
IMO, I still shy away from the idea of having no riser pipe on the water side (plus a trash rack and anti-vortex baffle). If my assumptions are correct about your water volumes and run-off, you need to consider the massive rain scenario and where that water is gonna go. The goal is to provide enough water passage without use of the emergency spillway, knowing full well that in an armageddon, the emergency can handle the short term burst without damaging erosion.
You have a GREAT project going. I would hate to see you make a decision without all the possible angles on the radar.

#63915 02/03/06 10:13 PM
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Your right about the amount of water I'll be getting in a heavy rain. It will be substantial!!!

My plan was to have a spillway 20 feet wide and 2 feet tall planted in either bermuda, or st. augustine sod. If this erodes on me, then I'll concrete a lip and spillway to get it away from the dam and into the creek.

I'm thinking the drain will be a six inch PVC that will suck from the bottom at the deepest end. At this location, I'm hoping it will also take the surrounding silt out with the water.

The drain will have an upright pipe at the outside of the dam that will end at the height of where I want the water to be, but lower than the emergancy spillway. I'm thinking about a foot difference below the spillway.

That means I'll have five acre feet to drain through this pipe. With that much water, it should be a gradual process,but it should also pull quite a bit of silt with it.

The thing I'm likeing about the drain system going staight through over teh siphon system is the ease of lowereing the water level when I want. With the siphon, it apears to be a bit of a process, especially if it's cold and wet out. With a good quality brass gate valve, I can easily handle the preasure and know it will work every time.

The big disadvantage to the drain pipe going through the dam from what i understand is water leaking along the pipe. If I put in four anti-seep collars as pairs, and pour concrete between each pair, I'm hopeful that it wont leak.

How bad is my thinking?? LOL Nothing is in stone yet, just what I've picked up on this site, and hopefully put together into a workable plan.

Thanks for the help and suggestions.

Eddie


Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.
#63916 02/03/06 11:21 PM
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I think you need to make some mathematical calc's about your drainage. Meadowlark has great background in ho-made, DIY ponds...he and I both refer alot to Pub 590 for the basics. For openers, I will quote from text: "The principal spillway normally is sized to control the runoff from a storm ranging from a 1-year to a 10-year frequency event. This depends on the size of the drainage are. For pond sites where the drainage area is small (less than 20 acres) and the condition of the vegetated spillway is good, no principal spillway is required except where the pond is spring fed or there are other sources of steady baseflow. In this cse, a trickle tube shall be installed."
I think you are well beyond the described conditions. Personally, I think you will be making a mistake to presume that a vegetated principal spillway will reguarly handle the potential outflow that you may/will experience. The answers lie in the hard mathematics. What is your projected containment size? What is the drainage area size, soil hydrology, and how are these soils used (timber, crops, structures, etc.). This, combined with rainfall histories, can be plugged into basic formulae that will render a snapshot of what to do to handle run-off excess.
Regarding the drain pipe, this is where Meadowlark and I respectfully disagree. He maintains a valid posture that I understand and respect. I believe, tho, that it can be a positive device when installed correctly and I intend to do so. The experts that I have conferred with for my project (approx 35 - 40 ac/ft) lead me to a 6" pvc sched 40 pipe. I have purchased a victaulic 6" butterfly valve. I intend to use 2 anti-seep collars, both 48" sq. I am still researching the actual collar product construction. I am leaning away from the basic neoprene rubber and leaning toward the sold PVC model....tbd. I have no intention of using anything more than elbow grease, hand packed clay around both. Pub 590 also has formulas for frequency and location of application.

#63917 02/04/06 06:37 AM
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Eddie said:
 Quote:
If I put in four anti-seep collars as pairs, and pour concrete between each pair, I'm hopeful that it wont leak.
I think one main point as to whether or not this would be successful is how well you can fill concrete into the hole and around the pipe without leaving any voids. Are you planning on using pipe that is corrugated on the outside or smooth?

Does anyone here have experience pouring concrete around complex shapes?


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#63918 02/04/06 07:58 AM
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I respectfully question the wisdom of a concrete pour between 2 anti-seep collars. The collars do nothing more than to stop the lateral flow of a trickle along the drain pipe...kinda like following a tree root. It creates a zone to force the flow to divert directly away from this easy route. As it is forced away, it is faced with finding a way to get back to this "pipe highway" to continue it's journey. A 48" sq collar hinders this return to the pipe by forcing the trickle to follow 24" directly away from the pipe, then 24" back (180 degree turn) to try to find it and continue. Creating a monolithe with concrete defeats 48" of travel, particularly the severe change of travel direction to get back to the "highway". Also, and I can't provide the hydrological answer here, but how good is the seal between concrete and clay, particularly if it is rough finished (compared to the seal against a very smooth medium like neoprene or PVC)?

#63919 02/04/06 12:07 PM
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Definitely a siphon would be harder to start up purposely. But I think the best strategy toward preventing siltation is to get it while it's suspended, removing the most heavily silted water while the silt is suspended. Once it settles out, it's difficult to dislodge from the bottom and a stationary pipe inlet wouldn't be able to draw it from more than a few feet away. A siphon system will let you buy a smaller pipe to remove the same volume of water during a rain event, unless you go and open the valve during the event.

#63920 02/04/06 12:12 PM
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My thinking on usuing concrete in conjuction with the anti-seep collars is compaction and overkill.

My thought is to use 6 inch Sch 40 PVC for the line running through the dam. The sides of the pipe will act as a drain like Brettski mentioned, but the collars will displace that path. I understand how this works and I'm in agreeement on using them. Using a solid material over a flexible rubber is interesting, but I fail to see the advantage. The flexible rubber is slid over the pipe very tightly creating a water tight seal. Any solid material will rely on glue or a seal of some kind to stop the flow of water. To me, this is a weaker design.

Compaction around this area is a real issue that I'm worried about. No way to do it by hand anywhere close to what I can do with my tractors. I can get real close to it and work around it, but to really get a solid seal and maintain the maximum integrity of the dam, I'm thinking concret would work. It would be a soupy mix more for filling a void than for strength, so a little extra water in the mix wont matter.

When you say your anti seep collars are 48 sq inches, do you mean 48 inches by 48 inches? I was thinking of 24 inches by 24 inches for 576 square inches of surface area minus the six inch pipe going through the middle of it.

Another option that I've wondered about for stoping the flow of water along the drain pipe would be along the lines of creating a small solid seep colar of less than a sqare foot. Glue and silicone it into place, then pouring concrete all around it to totally encapsulate the entire collar.

Thank you for taking the time to help me with this,
Eddie


Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.
#63921 02/04/06 01:37 PM
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On your team, Eddie...engineering vicariously thru your project to help me on mine this coming summer.
Pub 590 gets into the "seepage control of pipes thru the dam" issue to substantial detail. It does, indeed, speak of a concrete diaphragm to contol seepage, but is is used as a sole unit (not in conjunction with an anti-seep collar). It goes on to say that a collar can be used in lieu of a concrete diaphragm. "If an antiseep collar is used, it should extend into the fill a minimum of 24" perpendicular to the pipe.". All of this (and much more) verbiage is related to installation of a "thru dam principal spillway pipe system". This is where I extrapolate the need for a 48" sq collar.
I fully agree with you on the ability of wet concrete to fill the voids. I think Pub 590 agrees. Consider this idea: Antiseep collars are typically installed as singular units, spaced out along the run of the pipe. Take a look at this solid unit. It is the way I am leaning. I have had discussions with my contractor and he agrees that the neoprene collars with the temporary wood frame are a pain to work with and compact around. When I told him about this product, he was impressed and thinks it will be the answer. Drop down to the antiseep collar (it is within "conventional products"): Easywayplastics
If you haven't done so yet, I highly recommend that you start a nice fire in the fireplace, open a bottle of wine, and spend some quality time with Pub 590. There is alot of technical help in there...I found this link: Pub 590 link

#63922 02/04/06 06:32 PM
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Brettski

Thank you for the links. Could you tell me what the 48 inch anti-seep collar sells for? It looks interesting.

Also thanks for the link to Pub. 590. I did read it last year, but since then I've changed my mind on the overflow and drain several times and forgot about that part of it. I dug my keyway based on their advice.

I like the idea of just using cement around the pipe and not messing with the anti-seep collar at all. After I pour it and take off the forms, I can even silicone it really thick where the pipe and cement meet.

Thanks,
Eddie


Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.
#63923 02/04/06 06:54 PM
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EW,
The Easyway Plastics 48" sq PVC anti-seep collars go for about $100 plus frt. A 48" sq. Neoprene runs about $50 plus frt. If you find a better deal, lemme know. My contact at Easyway is Tom Rhodes, Ph 877-387-5472 or email via website. Tell him Brett from Ill sent ya...we have exchanged a number of e-mails in the past 3 weeks. I had him price the same unit in Sched 80...about $140 (in excess of 15' depth of soil, sched 80 pipe/product required).
I have a hard copy of Pub 590. It is v convenient for reference...at the finger tips...and gets used alot. Your USDA office should be able to getcha one. If it saves one boo-boo, it was worth it.

(edit) p.s. silicone sux...polyurethane rules! ;\)

#63924 02/06/06 06:01 PM
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Eddie,

Trowelable grade mastic (or) roofing tar works well to seal voids between your anti seep collar and pipe. The heavy stuff not the runny stuff; available at most hardware stores and much cheaper than silicone or other sealants.

Theo asked a very valid question: Are you using a smooth or corrugated pvc pipe? Corrugated plastic pipe is far supperior when it comes to "water pipeing" along your principal spillway. Each corrugation acts as a miniture anti-seep collar.

Using concrete as a collar also works well if done properly.

There has been some discussion on hand tamping pipe versus heavy equipment tamping.
Hand tamping pipe is an acceptable method of compacting soil around the pipe if it is done properly. You will need to pay careful attention when hand tamping the bottom one-half of the pipe, as not to bridge or lift the pipe from its "bed" during the tamping process.

I honestly believe that hand tamping (the bottom half) of your pipe is superior to many other methods. Its hard work but you will have alot of control over quality of the job.

Just my thoughts,

Ed

#63925 02/06/06 06:41 PM
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Ed,

My plan, which is still evolving, is to use smooth, 6 inch Shedule 40 PVC or SDR 35 pipe for the drain and primary spillway.

The smooth pipe has several advantages that seem to outweight corrugated pipes sealing ability. First it's better for installing a gate valve. Second is that I can install water tight fittings easily and know I have a perfect seal. Third, I can go back and repair or add to it easily.

I'll have an overflow off the side of the dam, on un-desterbed soil for the emergancy spillway.

I'll see how grass does on this, but if I get some erosion issues, then I'll pour concrete across it to carry the water away from the dam.

Thanks for the tip on the roofing tar. I hadn't thought of that one.

I'm starting to think about not using an anti-seep collar at all, but instead just using concrete. It I'll dig under the pipe 2 feet into virgin soil and frame above the pipe 2 feet. That will give me plenty of surface area, eliminate teh need to worry about compaction at that point and should seal off the pipe. For overkill, I can coat the pipe and surface of teh concrete with the roofers tar.

The pipe itself will rest on virgin soil, so compaction wont be a problem below it. I'll fill and compact it with my backhoe by driving over the dirt as it's built up until I get the top of the trench. Then I'll build the dam in lifts over the entire area.

Thank you,
Eddie


Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.
#63926 02/06/06 07:28 PM
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Eddie,
Just a FYI, virgin soil is not compacted. Compaction is suppose to be, I believe, 95%.
As Ed just stated, hand compaction is prefered around pipes through the dam, esp. drain pipes.
Think about what Ed said. He is giving you good advise.


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#63927 02/07/06 09:43 AM
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Ric,

My thinking on laying the pipe on virgin soil is that it is already solid. Compacting aroudnd the side of the pipe makes perfect sence, than I'll use my backhoe and drive over the fill material on top of the pipe in lifts to compact the trench up to grade.

Avoiding voids under the pipe is also achieved by digging a flat bottom on the trench, or bedding the pipe into the trench with a shovel.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Eddie


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It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 773
Likes: 1
My girlfriend took this picture on Sunday. The drainage ditches are moving the water out of the lake site and to the lowest point as seen in the picture, but I still have 2 feet of water left that wont drain.

The big pile of dirt on the right is for the core trench in the gap of my dam for the drain.

Once I'm comfortable with the best aproach to put in the drain, then I'll get on that part of it. So far I'm still reading and learning what I can.

Eddie




Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.
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