Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Crappie Pond

The drought has had one positive effect...it has enabled dry areas to be worked that otherwise are not accessible...that's small compensation indeed.

In the past, I've mentioned a desire to build a pond dedicated to crappie and have received much great info from several of you regarding the feasibility of that "experiment". My thanks to all who have supplied that info.

I have now completed clearing a 2 to 3 acre area for that pond. We will shoot grade in another day or so and may begin pushing dirt in the next few days.

The purpose of this post is to solicit any additional inputs from Forum members, especially as related to construction to help with the management of crappie. No shallow areas? Steep banks? Depths? Anything else anyone cares to offer.

If no additional comments, that's fine also and I thank everyone for what they have provided to date.

ML :

I will see what I can find on this, that you don't already have. I know they like deeper water and move up and down in the water col. -- so think about vertical structure. You might want to leave a ridge or 2 in the bottom.

One of my life's goals is to dedicate a pond just to white crappie and fatheads. Vegetation would have to be kept to a minimum (tilapia, maybe?) and fatheads would be fed from an inexpensive feeder, which would increase their fecundity and numbers, and make them more susceptible to crappie predation. Then I would put massive angling pressure on all crappie under ten inches. Once a crappie was ten inches he would be "protected" for growth to trophy size. Structure would be added using grids of 8 inch diameter corrugated drain tubing encased in a stainless wire matrix that would strategically be placed near the areas that the fatheads were feeding on the pellets. I think it would be a daily slaughter, as I've seen this in practice with HSB and fatheads in my own ponds. I think you could raise a four-pounder. In effect you would be moving inexpensive pellet feed into crappie biomass.

Also, I might add my thought on how I would do it.

Fathead minnows and threadfin shad from the start.

Let them spawn then stock up to 200 white crappie per acre...not blacks. This stocking rate is rather high but since you are trying to control crappie reproduction the initial stockers are what you are trying to grow...then you can thin them out if you need to.

Stock bluegill one year later in the spring at a rate of 500 per acre for crappie fry control.

Stock 50 HSB per acre when you stock your bluegill.

Stock tilapia 2 years after crappie were stocked for more forage production if desired.

Stock 20 lbs golden shiners every February to eat crappie at their larval and fry stages.

I think Bruces' suggestions about cover are good, also add dense vertical cedar cover.

This plan is experimental. I've yet to have a customer actually follow the plan as prescribed.

I think threadfins are very important here, as well as a combination of management and stocking techniques aimed at crappie population control.

I don't think you should stock LMB, partly because they may restrict your options later on if you decide to stock more crappie or baitfish. Also stunted bass are like stunted green sunfish...they can eat your potential crappie forage when it is small.

I would minimize crappie spawning habitat, maximize depth, add congregating cover, build a long narrow upstream creek bed for spring migratory habits.
What forage species will you use? Whatever you choose, maximize their spawning habitat and give them some dense cover.

Here's an answer I gave to a man asking how to manage a small club pond for crappie fishing. It may not be an exact fit for what you plan, but it may add some thought to the process.
"Knowing the lifestyles of crappie helps to understand what to expect from them in small waters. They are voracious predators, limited by mouth size. They can't eat each other, because of body shape. They are unpredictable spawners. When they do reproduce, they are first each spring.
Those facts suggests the need for other species, both prey and predators. It also suggests constant attention to population dynamics.
So, as the pond manager, you need to pick the predators and prey which allow crappie to be the marquee fish, while staying on point with population dynamic management.
Keep in mind most ponds will allow a standing crop of top line predators somewhere between 50 & 100 pounds per surface acre, depending on level of management. Plus, it takes somewhere between 4 and 10 pounds of forage fish to grow a pound of predators.
In order to try to manage for maximum crappie production, while minimizing their recruitment, you need to be creative. Stocking 100 black crappie per surface acre, after establishing a fathead minnow population, with golden shiners, might be the best way to start. But, at some point, expect to run short of minnows. The initially stocked crappie will grow well. It's when they begin to reproduce you will have issues. A common suggestion for additional forage fish could be bluegill, but they become a dominant species with crappie, so are not necessarily your best bet.
Then, you must consider fish to eat baby crappie, other than crappie. Look at stocking five or six known male largemouth bass per surface acre. They don't grow large, are active predators, and won't dominate. The down side is if you happen to get a female, by some quirk of nature. Baby bass completely rearranges your fishery. Another idea is to stock a few hybrid stripers for predators. They are fairly easy to get, will readily eat fish food, and will prey heavily on small fish.
You asked me what I would do. First, be sure you know all the consequences you can think of, and be prepared to deal with them.
Here's what I would consider.
Stock 30 pounds of fathead minnnows per surface acre, and feed them. Provide spawning habitat, allow them to reproduce several times, then stock 100-150 black crappie per surface acre. Do these things this spring. Next fall, stock 8 male largemouth bass per surface acre (10-12" long). Or, stock 5 male largemouth bass and 5 8-10" hybrid stripers per surface acre.
Monitor growth rates for two years. Monitor reproduction rates after the first year. Seine sampling two or three times each spring and summer helps keep your fingers on the pulse, ready to make some changes when the need arises. The biggest problem is watching for change, and being poised to make quick alterations, primarily removing baby crappie if and when the predators can't do it.
Here's what to expect. Expect the originally stocked crappie to thrive and grow large. Members will be happy, after the first or second year....then for two or three years beyond that, crappie fishing will be pretty good. Here's the catch. A four acre pond will produce 150-250 catchable size crappie per year. Whenever someone tells me they want crappie, it's not because of the sporting nature of that fish. It's because people want a fish to eat. Even if you choose to feed forage fish, the standing crop of fish which should be removed may not accomplish the goals your members want. Even if there are 200 catchable crappie per year, it won't be wise to harvest that many.
So, there's my spin.
What's really cool is that I could be totally wrong. Figure out what you want to do, go for it, then be sure to let others in on your findings."

There are conflicting opinions above regarding whether to stock white or black crappie.

I think black crappie would be better in smaller ponds due to their tendency toward more diverse food patterns. My literature seaches indicate white crappie are more piscivorus than black crappie. I think the varied diet of black crappie will allow for better growth rates if forage fish become limiting in the pond.

Can others provide discussion why they think white crappie are beter to stock in ML's crappie experiment.

I specifically picked white crappie for my pond because I was going to try to have them exclusively feed on fatheads and not need to rely on zooplankton resources. It seems like there could be some merit in having a cheap easily available protein source like pellets "leapfrog" into a white crappie population. In a small pond with more natural feeding patterns, in this case zooplankton, I would always choose black crappie.

Why not threadfin shad?...Bob

We recently performed a survey for some folks that had a booming threadfin shad population and several 2#-3# white crappie were taken off bruch piles. Seems reasonable to me.

Since there is some debate then about which type of crappie to stock...why not stock both species in equal numbers and see how they grow?

Thanks to each for the inputs. The spawning unpredictability factor and its implications to management intensity are somewhat daunting. If this were the only pond, or even the last pond I'll build it might be different. This sounds like possibly too much to bite off with everything else. If professional assistance were available nearby, then it might be different. I think you guys have talked me out of this one. Another F1 LMB pond sounds better and better. Thanks.

No... don't give up (you will ruin your reputation as a mad scientist )

I can't help at all with the construction part but what about this:

How about stocking a heavy supply of Gambusia minnows in the Spring, follow with 3-5" Crappie in the Winter (speaking from our southern months), then adding HSB or LMB the following Spring. Or if the pond is really ready now go ahead with the minnows and 3-5" crappie now. The minnows could control mosquito populations while bearing live every 28 days or so through the summer. When the Crappie are introduced, a food base will already be established with the minnows (also a bug light would not hurt). Then the bass could also feed on the minnows, but as they age they would dispose of the crappie offspring the following year. It seems the offspring might be a bit more like a Burger King Whopper versus a Krystal Burger (minnows) once the bass get a good size on them. For this example we could leave the BG out of the equation! Just a thought!

Bear in mind I am drawing my hypothesis off the thoughts of an experiment we did with Ken's Hi-Tech Speck (hybrid crappie). Bass were not in that exact equation, but Ken placed a number (don't have pond size or fish amount in front of me since I am at home) of hybrid crappie in an experimental pond for one year. He continuously added minnows (about 5K per month) and was able to grow them from 2" to 14" in one year. Good looking crappie for a one year project.

I do not know of any customers who have tried the exact experiment that Ken did, but we have had a lot who grew the hybrids 8” plus in the first year in combination ponds (BG, LMB …). These customers ALWAYS stocked with minnows in the beginning (some added more later), and most used the Bug Light we sell to supplement feeding. In fact, we are currently working on a way for the bug light to trigger a quick feed burst from a bank feeder to fool the crappie into hitting pellet feed.
Our hybrid crappie is not the hybrid black that others advertise. This fish is actually very attractive (and highly aggressive). A mature adult displays the white belly, graying center with some stripes, and a prominent black stripe down its back. We are only 5 years into dealing with this fish, but customer response has all been positive. Unfortunately most of our customers do not do the heavy documentation and record keeping that is displayed by the pros here. The largest we have grown out was just less than 5 lbs in a three year period (again with a heavy minnow supply and low to no other predators).
Depending on what results you are looking for in a pond, stocking ratios should be relevant to your cause. In a standard stock I generally do not suggest over 60 specks to the acre (in a pond over 2 acres). BUT if large crappie are your goal then you can raise these numbers accordingly as long as you raise your forage base. I think a high forage base is the real key.

Personally, and this is just my opinion, too many people get caught up in trying to have one pond with a variety of monster fish. They throw everything into the pot and expect to make world records. If you were to do a small crappie pond I would stay away from the BG and LMB. Stick with the crappie, minnows (lots of them), and bass. Besides you could always cull out any GG offspring that escape the HSB (from the TGG pond) and toss them in for the larger crappie. Again this is just my opinion!!!

edit: reading back over the post I noticed the size of the pond in question. It would not be economically feasable to have minnows as the only forage. Enter the bluegill, but not GG's. Their mouth size might compete with the crappie.

edit #2: I just read the profile of the new member. Just how many Texas engineers are on this forum, and exactly what are you all up to (engineering wise)?

Deb,

The problem I'm worried about is what Bob Lusk mentioned above as unpredictable spawning...hundreds of thousands maybe one year and little or none the next. That has significant implications to management involvement, in my mind. It also has significant implications to my overall system objectives. I'll try to explain those implications briefly below.

I don't know how to hire and fire predators depending on the spring spawn of crappie. It means frequent seining and very heavy fishing pressure and removal. Seining is not a one person task in a three acre pond.

Also, like some of my other ponds, this new one will be "back in the sticks". That's great for keeping poaching down, but not so good for inviting friends and neighbors over to control crappie populations on a daily basis....in the manner that Robinson aptly described. Also, a good way to loose friends is to ask them to help seine a pond. . If professional assistance were available, then it might be different.

Now to the real reason...the implications to the system I'm after. My long term objectives (the real secret method to my madness ) are for several more ponds to enable the establishment of a world class fishing experience (as defined in other posts I've made).

I've developed the management techniques which utilize Tilapia and eliminate the need for artificial feeding and chemicals. This minimizes the amount of pond management and expense required per pond. This enables me to achieve my intent of more ponds....more ponds without more work or much more work. More ponds reduces the fishing pressure on each pond and as a result, catch rates for the skilled angler are terrific, world class. That's the grand scheme of things. A world class fishing experience in a system of ponds. I will get there some day soon. It is within reach. I've simulated every aspect of the system and it works. Now, all I have to do is build it.

My fear, again based on this unpredictability factor, is that a crappie pond will adsorb so much management attention, that my end objectives and dreams of a world class fishery on my own land will not be met. Give me a crappie with predictable spawning habits and I'm back in the game. Otherwise, its continue with my journey toward my objectives. Thanks.

Todd...threadfin shad are a great choice, but don't live in the same niche as crappie. Crappie like to congregate in deeper water most of the year, imbedded in dense cover, if available. I commonly electrofish them in the middle of dense cedar, heavy pondweed, etc. I'm not sure crappie would find their way to open water to shag shad. But, the up side is volumes of fish, available part of the year, especially during cool fall months.
I tend to lean toward shiners because they can survive long enough to spawn for several years.
Gambusia stand a chance because they live around the edges in half an inch of water.
Fatheads don't stand a long term chance at all.
Bluegill grow bigger, faster, and aren't a logical choice for forage fish for crappie.
Throw in the unpredictability of spawning and you have a challenge with crappie, balancing them with their forage base.
If someone comes up with a marketable source of triploid or hybrid crappie, my mind will completely change,and I will jump onto the bandwagon.

ML :

A couple of thoughts. There is a reason almost all the state fisheries scientists/extension services say do not use crappie in small (under 80 acres) ponds and you have just posted (ided) the reason , giant swings in reproduction. Some studies suggest that crappie (like gizzard shad) can sense the population dynamics of the water and somehow stop or hold down reproduction in the entire pond. The more I read the more I think many fish may sense population dynamics and adjust reproduction strategies for a host of reasons.

I know of no way to have a good crappie pond that does not involve a lot of work. But there may be one. I don't think all the options are in yet and the time for making a final choice is not here yet. The pond will be built the same no matter your final choice. All you have to decide now is building the pond questions and that should be the same -- leave some bottom features like humps and ridges and stumps etc. leave some spawning places (gravel if there use it) - deep water near humps/spawning areas , islands -- all the stuff you already know. Use that scientific method -- gather all the facts -- test in your mind the outcomes - then draw a conclusion. No need to rush the choice yet. You know the drill well . I say stick to the process that has worked well - make the choice at the right time and you will know when you are there.

FWIW, the only small pond that I work with that currently produces 13+ inch crappie is not fed, the crappie are blacks and the only other species is LMB, and the bass are incredibly dense in numbers. They are everywhere, and probably average 8 inches. My theory is that the LMB greatly control black crappie reproduction, but don't compete very well for available zooplankton resources. The few crappie that we've kept were loaded with phantom midge larvae.

EWEST,

You are 100% correct on the scientific method and decision making...and if a solution to the unpredictable spawning factor implications to management intensity comes along in the next two or three months, I'm in. Otherwise, it is another F1 LMB pond and one step closer to my end objectives. I don't feel I can sacrifice my overall objectives to spend lots of time on a crappie pond, as rewarding as a crappie pond might be.

Ok maybe back to the drawing board. ML what are the chances of you digging a smaller pond, say .25 to .50 acres to designate for a crappie pond. If that is feasable then you could possibly go back to my original plan of stocking loads of Gambusia in the Spring, following with hybrid crappie in the Winter, then adding a bass predator the following Spring. That small of a pond should be easy enough to maintain. Just don't forget the high forage base.

Deb,

The chances of that are 100%...but again back to the fundamental question...do your hybrid crappies overcome the unpredictable spawning problem which drives the management factor? Yes, 1/2 acre is more easily managed than 3 acres, but still sounds like lots of time. Do you have any data on the spawning results of your hybrid crappie? Like I said earlier, if there is evidence of overcoming that problem, I'm in with both feet.

ML

I agree that you are going about this the best way and I thought that was what you were doing anyway. Keep that end goal in mind - it is the constant in the equation - no sacrifices with it.

EWEST,

The end objective is never out of my thoughts and plans. GG's and crappie are fun, but my end objective has not changed and no deviations from it have been made. I'm almost within shouting distance. The property was closed on last fall and I've been clearing places for the ponds ever since. Dirt starts moving in a matter of days. My dreams are becoming reality...thanks to people like you who have provided tons of info and encouragement.

ML,

This one is an oldie but may be worth another look.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000117#000001

Deb,

This may interest you and also further my mad scientist reputation on this Forum, which you seem concerned about. .

Bob Lusk, the master at this game, always asks what's your objective. So, what's my objective for a "crappie" pond. Well, it is to have a predator fish that is excellent eating, readily catchable on flies/lures, and consistently reaches 1.5 to 2 pounds, with possibilities for somewhat larger. This fish would fill a part of an overall system of ponds which includes other, much larger predator fish in other ponds. At the same time, this fish has to fit my low management requirements. I don't care if it is silver with spots or pink.

The traditional crappie fails in that last management category...however, the GG, okay pick yourself up off the floor, may pass that criteria. It is a virtual crappie, without the silver looks, but nonetheless, a good eating, aggressive, small end predator that MAY meet the stated objectives. If the experiment in the 1/4 acre Kids pond works, the GG will be my "crappie" in a 3/4 acre pond heavily stocked with GG's, Gambusia, and HSB. How's that for radical thinking? Sure glad Bob posted the no flaming rules.

I'm not concerned about you honey, heck remember I said I wanted to adopt you.

As far as the GG's serving as a predator in a 3/4 acre pond I see no problem there (but don't forget you will have to find a way to remove the offspring either by seining or stocking HSB). Let's just make sure you like them enough in the 1/4 acre pond first.

As for our hybrid crappie we have noticed a decrease in spawning with these hybrids. Do they reproduce? Yes, but not with the numbers seen on the normal black or white (at least cut by 1/2). This being said you might opt out for stocking the hybrid crappie, LOTS OF MINNOWS, and a handful of predators. Use LMB if you think you can cull out the larger ones over time. I think you could exceed the 1.5 to 2 lb. goal on the crappie in a 3-4 year period if the forage base is kept high enough. Provide alot of minnow cover for spawning, and add Gambusia and fatheads when you see the need.

Deb,

It's the unpredictability of the crappie spawn that is the killer for me...do your hybrid crappie have a predictable spawn? I doubt it, but anything is possible.