Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Crappie Pond

Going back to reasons to stock black or white crappie. I calculated the standard weights for black & white crappie. Calculations show that black crappie typically contain 12.0% to 12.5% more body mass than whites of the same length. So if you are looking for table meat then blacks may give you a slightly larger fillet.

Bill,

I wish I knew the right name(s). I just can't distinguish it from Southern Naiad and various pondweed species, but as best I can determine it is pondweed. Could you id it if I sent you some...or posted a picture?

Also, Bill, what is your take on this unpredictable spawn characteristic of crappie in small ponds? If real, and it sure seems to be real, it would seem to make crappie stocking in a small pond a crap shoot...at best. I know of no management techniques in which you can effectively "hire and fire predators" to keep the crappie in check, With that characteristic, crappie management has to be an intensive effort, at best. I'd really like to hear your views on that. Thanks.

BM,

Not that I recall. I did say Gambusia are found in ditches or other temporary low places with water.

Grass shrimp are a barometer of clean water. Around here, I only see them in relatively clear ponds, not muddy disturbed water and in the presence of pondweed. They are the "canary" in my big pond...when I see them I know all is well, if I don't see them, a problem may be looming.

That's sounds like a double-whammy survival advantage for Gambusia over small minnows like FH - live birth that produces "advanced" fry (which I assume aids in increasing the % living to adulthood) and a propensity to eat small fry from similarly-size species of minnow, which ought to reduce their competition to some extent.

BM,

By the way, Todd did a shock survey a year ago on my pond and he also noticed large numbers of grass shrimp in the pondweed...they were jumping everywhere trying to escape the jolts...maybe Todd would like to comment on those and/or the type of weed I have.

ML, I can't recall what type of vegetation you have. You can post a pic if you like for identification. Sorry

Thanks, all, for the good information. As usual.

ML - I will work on a discussion (answers?) for your Jan 6 2006 posted questions.

I second that Burg. The great crappie ponds I have fished had plentiful and diverse forage. Plenty of shallows with weeds, minnows, shiners, and insects produce big crappie in good numbers.

To control the population, I intend to set a strict "inverse" size limit on my bass. Any bass over ~3 pounds will be released. That alone should help quite a bit. It will also frustrate my guests, but that's life.

Edit: I consider grass shrimp to be the holy grail of crappie forage. My pond will be a grass shrimp and minnow factory first, and a BG/RES/Crappie/LMB pond second.

ML – Do you currently have viable weeds growing? If so are they the same ones that you see in mid-summer?. I can ID the weeds. First let’s try a close-up photo. Get at least one clear photo as close to the weed leaves as your camera will produce a clear focus. Sometimes it helps to put a few sprigs of weeds in a shallow pan with about 1/2" of water; then take a photo. If I or Kelly Duffie cannot ID the weed I will have you send me a small bunch of weeds. How many different types of submerged weeds to you think you have?

Bill,

No, the weed goes dormant and retreats every year away from the shoreline during winter and then returns in spring. I'll drag up a specimen and try to photo as you described. I think there is only one type of submerged weed that has survived the Tilapia and grass carp. Grass shrimp love it, but not sure what they do in the winter months when the weed seems to be dormant. Thanks.

Meadowlark,
Here are a few thoughts regarding your crappie stocking idea.

This crappie stocking / management thing seems to be pretty complicated. Lots of conflicting opinions as what to stock. The difficulty, or maybe a better term is unpredictability, is obviously why crappie are often discouraged as a sportfish in ponds. Bob Lusk emphasizes unpredictability in the links below. A prime example of this difficulity and unprediciability is evident in the previous conflicting advice that you have received in the above posts. Lots more crappie advice can be found in this long winded crappie link ……
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001332#000000
PS - ML I noticed you did not participate in the above discusion so it may be new to you.


See these shorter crappie threads-
http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001319

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=20&t=001230

You are probably hoping for some real pearls of wisdom and “magic crappie raising tricks” from me, but I am not sure that I am able to give you any easy answers. I have only limited experiences with mostly black crappie. I have avoided working with white crappie for reasons mentioned in the literature. Crappie are definitely an enigma. So far there are no easy answers how to grow crappie easily and trouble free in a pond. At least no easy answers until, as Bob says, someone comes up with sterile crappie or triploid crappie.

I also noted that Deb did not provide an answer to your (Jan 04, 9:36am) question about the predictability spawning behavior of Ken’s hybrid crappie. They likely do not have lots of details or complete data on their hybrid crappie spawning ethology (behavior in natural environment).

I think one of the several important unknowns about crappie behavior / management in ponds and lakes has to do with their spawning habits. Several years (1980’s) ago I did an extensive literature search for crappie spawning after a fish raiser “let me in” on a crappie spawning fact that I had to promise not to publicize. Since that time the fish raiser has moved on to other nonfish raising interests. So I assume that I can release his crappie spawning “secret”. I am not sure how exact, precise, reliable or even consistent this spawning behavior information is. I am sure that all crappie have not read and signed this spawning pledge or oath ! A few rogue crappie with unorthodox spawning habits probably exist in every population which probably partly explains their unpredictability.

My fish raising buddy’s crappie spawning secret was this. He was a scuba diver and he claims he watched crappie spawning several times and it goes like this. Firstly, crappie build a depression-like nest similar to the other fish in the sunfish family. However crappie build their nest adjacent to some upright structure such as a tree, weeds, cattails, logs or even overhanging tree roots or grass. I found this fact about structure located near the nest verified several times in the literature. Here is the unpublished part. During the spawning ritual the female deposits the eggs on the upright structure. Then the male removes the eggs with his mouth and puts them in the nest; an unusual behavior indeed. Parenting behavior from that point is typically the same as for the other sunfishes, i.e. defending and guarding the nest. Supposedly if the egg deposition and removal “dance” does not take place the nest is not successful. I am pretty sure this informant was not “pulling my leg”. IF THIS IS TRUE, it could explain at least some of the reason for the “boom or bust” of crappie populations. Why some ponds do not seem to have any or very few small crappie could be due to they lack the proper structure and crappie have difficulty producing productive nests.

Without a doubt there are hatcheries that probably raise crappie in bare bottom ponds with no vertical structure. I cannot explain that occurrence, unless the crappie are nesting near overhanging grass or underwater tree roots. Or they are rogues and when desperate, they nest just like other sunfish. Maybe my spawning information came from a fluke occurrence.

Another key habit of crappie that I think contributes to their unpredictability is behavior of newly hatched swim-up fry. They leave the nest and the shallow, near shore areas to forage in the open water. Several fishery references have reported this migratory behavior. Authors think this is an instinctive survival behavior that lowers vulnerability of crappie fry to near shore predators such as young bass, sunfish etc. If phytoplankton & zooplankton populations, as food items, are not “right” or abundant enough for the arriving wave of fry, then lots of fry are lost in the open water zone due to starvation.

Predacious and or filter feeding grazers can take a large toll on the numbers of crappie fry in open water. FYI - Many people do not realize that there are a couple of planktonic insect species that are predacious. If these predators are common or happen to be abundant when crappie fry go pelagic, then reductions in numbers of crappie fry will result. We also should not forget about the importance of filter feeding and often pelagic fish such as some shiners and shad. They can consume lots of planktonic crappie fry. I think there are times when a good crappie hatch can end up with very poor numbers of surviving crappie fry due to the predation factor in the pelagic zone. So if you take into account poor nesting success (weather, structure, substrate and behavior) and in combination with pelagic predation of fry, these can explain at least some of the reasons for boom and bust crappie.

What does all this mean for crappie as a dominant or important species in ML’s plans for a new pond? 1. Well if you want to minimize numbers of young crappie, I suggest you try and eliminate spawning areas for crappie. I would build the pond with steep sides and no vertical structure. 2. Maximize forage fish for crappie. I think the earlier suggestions of Bruce, Overtonfish (Todd) and Bob were good – use fatheads, shiners and or since you are southern - threadfins. Small threadfins are frequently reported as common to abundant in crappie diets. However, crappie will probably eat whatever small fish and or insect larvae, and large zooplankton that are most abundant during each season. I think crappie feed on insects, invertebrates, and large zooplankton when small fish are scarce, i.e. winter and early spring before the first minnow hatch. The presence of larger golden shiners and or shad should also consume lots of planktonic crappie fry. Fatheads are not normally pelagic grazers or feeders.

In addition to t.shad, shiners may be an important addition to your crappie pond because by fall YOY shad may grow beyond the optimum forage size for the smaller to medium sized crappie. Whereas I think YOY golden shiners that hatch in mid to late summer should remain in the optimum size range for most sizes of crappie throughout fall, winter and possibly spring. I am not real knowledgeable about t.shad behavior in ponds. Second opinions are good. Bob also tends to question how long YOY t.shad are vulnerable to crappie foraging especially the smaller crappie who probably need more food intake per body weight annually than the largest crappie.

Crappie offspring will probably have to be thinned at some point. Most of the suggestions above emphasize LMB or another predator fish. I think small forage fish are going to be the backbone and necessary for producing rapidly growing crappie. We have a stumbling block here, you need lots of predators but lots of predators including crappie will tend to overeat the consumable sizes of forage fish. You are almost required to maintain high numbers of predators for population control when crappie are successfully and routinely recruiting YOY crappie into the pond. ML your concern is well founded about the notorious unpredictability of crappie.

I am not sure how successful one can be at simultaneously maintaining relatively constant numbers of lots of small forage fish and also high numbers of smaller predators. That sounds like a difficult balancing act to me. I think if I were raising crappie in a small pond, I would periodically set or pull an appropriate size meshed gill net through the pond to selectively remove overabundant crappie. A specific size of gill net mesh will entrap a certain size range of fish. Note that similar sizes of other fish would also be removed with a gill net. This gill net method would reduce at least some of the necessity for lots of predators who I think could easily over-eat the necessary forage base of small fish. Another option in the smaller pond situation, is to keep crappie numbers quite low so the few remaining crappie have surplus food resources and then grow rapidly. However, this results in having lower densities of harvestable crappie. And again we have a stumbling block. I assume you want to harvest crappie – for table use. Having to harvest low numbers, as Bruce eluded to above might dampen the benefits of all your hard work of raising crappie in a fairly small pond. Does all the hard work jusify the limited or small annual harvest of the eating sized crappie?

Another technique for supplimenting good crappie growth would be to maintain good zooplankton populations. I am not sure how feasible this would be if you had abundant shad or shiners that are heavy zooplankton feeders. Numerous studies have documented that large forms (species) of zooplankton are scarce in lakes that contain abundant shad or filter feeding shiners. Reduce the shad or shiner populations and the larger zooplankton populations return(biomanipulation). Fertilization would produce a definite bloom but larger forms of zooplankton can be selectively eliminated by shad as noted above. Crappie are only able to utilize the larger types of zooplankton and small types pass through the gill rakers. A fertilization program would probably be necessary for maintaining good zooplankton densities. Since I am familiar with “bugs”, I would key on Bruce’s advice and make sure that phantom midges were encouraged and that the larvae were seeded and hopefully thrived in my crappie pond. A study of phantom midges (Chaborous) will reveal more info on this topic. Grass shrimp as Bodad and Burgermeister mention are other very good food items for any sport fish pond.

Well ML there you have my 5 cents worth out of my fishery dollar about raising crappie. I think if you really love crappie, as you probably already realize, it will take work to CONSISTANTLY produce quality crappie over the long term. As you said earlier, maybe you are not that much in love with crappie compared to the amount of the required work and the amount of potential results. If it is just an experiment and just for fun, then that is an entirely different story. It boils down to what I usually say - it is all about your goals and it all depends.

Bill notes "A few rogue crappie with unorthodox spawning habits probably exist in every population.."

These crappie are undoubtedly Pirates.

I think (don't remember) that I answered ML in an email. The hybrid we have has only been "fiddled" with for about 5 years. We have noted substantial decrease in reproduction, and we always suggest a predator when stocking. Seeing as how I am a SMB fan I would go with hybrid crappie, SMB, and gambusia in a small pond. Easier to manage that way. I don't do a lot of research with the crappie (working on a monster hybrid crawfish right now) so I can't offer a lot of info. Sorry!

Deb, I am not picking on you but I am a stickler for details. ML's specific question was: .."but again back to the fundamental question...do your hybrid crappies overcome the unpredictable spawning problem which drives the management factor?" I understand that the Ken's "hybrid" crappie may have decreased spawning as you pointed out, but I THINK ML's question was how predictable is the decreased spawning or is the tendency for decreased spawning consistant from year to year? Is it predictable or consistent each year? I assume that since they have only been working with the hyb crappie a few years it is really hard to determine the longer term predictibility. I figured my comment would bring you back into this topic.

I am not sure how well SMB will perform long term in smaller ponds in TX. Bob L. is doing some hobby research with these fish in one of his ponds. He will update us in the magazine on their progress in 2006. I question how effectively SMB will control abundant small crappie (3"-4"). SMB have a less tendency than LMB to go pelagic for forage.

I don't believe that Deb means Small Mouth Bass when she uses the acronym, SMB.

She has used SMB before when I believe she was referring to Hybrid Striped Bass.

Then again, what do I know? Maybe Holyoak has a new Small Mouth Bass.

Sunil if he (Holyoak) does have a new small mouth bass, it darn sure ain't me. We all know how I can rattle on, and on, and on,...

You are right though! Down here in the deep south we interchange HSB and SMB when referring to the hybrid stripes. I will try to be more clear in the future. Thanks!

Cody you are picking on me so admit it . In reality you are good about calling me out on details, and I consider that a plus my "sensei". Thanks for the free education. I'm sure I will get a hefty bill in about 5 years for all of the knowledge you have given me.

Your post above was both interesting and educating. We do not know the spawning behavior of the hybrid crappie, only that the offspring #'s are less than in the standard crappie. Thanks again for the info.

Bill -- very interesting observation on crappie spawning behavior! Fish are more complex than we realize - time after time, we see that! Just think of the complex social behavior in bluegills.

When I was in grad school, we spawned black crappies in a series of small culture ponds. In half the ponds we added wood structures for cover (upright and overhead). In the other half of the ponds, we added no structures (bare ponds).

When structures were available, the crappies ALWAYS spawned next to them. However, the ponds without structures produced similar amounts of young crappies. When structures weren't present, they excavated nests in the Chara, and spawned just like a sunfish or bass (as you indicated above).

Bill,

Simply an outstanding response. You addressed the very concern that I have, the crappie spawn unpredictability, which drives the associated level of management intensity. I've described it in layman's terms as the need to hire and fire predators every spring depending on the crappie spawn. Even if Deb's fish has reduced spawning, that does not solve the unpredictability factor, which is the critical element, in my mind.

I would love to have a crappie pond, but until the above is adequately addressed will pass on it. There is only so much energy and time available and it just isn't worth it to me to spend an inordinate amount of either on one individual pond.

Bob Lusk, if you read Bill's above post, a version of it in a Pond Boss magazine edition would sure help a lot of people, I believe. It is the best single post on the subject, maybe any subject, that I have read on this Forum. Thanks Bill.

ML - thank you for the compliment.

Ewest sent me several articles about crappie and one dealt with research about crappie spawning. Spawning resusts in the article were similar to those Dr Dave mentioned above. The behavior of the male removing eggs from structure may have been an oddity or atypical behavior.

...(continuing Bill's thought above) which certainly means there is a LOT going on under the water that we don't know or understand!

Fascinating about the crappie females laying the eggs on structure and the males moving them. If he noticed it on several differing yearly spawns, it would seem to be genetically inclined
behavior. It would be interesting to know if he only saw it one population at one BOW.

I recall reports some years back about LMB spawning in the tops of submerged trees at Toledo Bend Resorvoir. This was reported by quite a few of the guides. I think it was during a severe drought when the lake had pretty well retreated to the river channel. Not sure about the conditions. I expect this is more common than the aberrant behavior of the crappie.

Cody is a thoughtful man.
As I was reading his post this evening, I was trying to figure out how to use it in an article. In my consulting business, many people ask about crappie. It's a sort of 'mystery' fish to a lot of us.

Bob :

When ML started thinking about this several mths. ago I started looking at studies again to add to what I thought I knew. There are a lot of studies out there ( I would guess at least 100) and they cover many angles , questions and factors with much uncertainty remaining. Just a list or bibliography of the studies and there main points would be quite an undertaking and would help with questions that arise. After reading until my eyes were about to fall out I can safely say that crappie are an enigma within a conundrum. Keep us posted on what is to come.

BC- that was not 5 cents that was an entire $1. Only thing I can add is that when we find large populations of overabundant stunted crappie there are one of two things common. A low bass populaiton and/or high abundance of weeds/submerged cover. We also tend to shock the crappie right in the weedline if there is one. From the lakes where we get large crappie... my recipe for big crappie is fairly high bass population, good fertilization program, shad or shiners, and lack of submersed vegetation.