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#62189 12/28/05 10:15 AM
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Question about trees, Im thinking of planting some pine tress on the north side of my pond to create a line for my property and my neighbros property as well as for the astetics. I was thinking pine tress because of the there rapid growth rate. Is it a good idea to put these trees near(10'-15' from pond edge) a pond or would u suggest something else. I live in south louisiana. My pond is only 150'long by about 50'-60' wide.

Thanks!!

#62190 12/28/05 10:26 AM
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jixxxer,

As we all know, trees need lots of water and send their roots in search of it. Pine trees have an unbelievable root system....far more extensive than an oak tree for example. In renovating a pond with pine trees on and around the dam, I discovered the extent to which those roots can invade the dam. Personally, I would not have a pine tree anywhere near the dam. In addition to the root system, pines are evergreen and hence sway and rock with the winter winds, causing further potential damage to compaction in a dam.

If the trees are located well away from the dam, then it is a different story, but in close proximity to the dam, my opinion is that would not be a good choice.

#62191 12/28/05 10:34 AM
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Regarding planting kinda close to the pond edge, I cannot see a logistical mistake in the making. The other forum members can correct me on that point. Consider, tho, how the view will change when they grow up to be big boys. How will the sun play off of them? Will they be in an area to provide a nice reflection off of the surface? Also, a random planting pattern should be practiced. The distance from the shoreline should vary to create an appealing and natural design. Go on-line to your official state website and work your way to the USDA and/or soil and water division to find a listing of the types of conifers and how they respond/grow under differing conditions. If this info is not available there, reach out to your county NRCS office. Along with this research, practical input about the difficulty of rearing conifers relative to the surrounding evironment and wildlife should be available and considered. ie; deer eat some conifers and stay away from others...some conifers cannot survive under the filtered sunlight of a surrounding forest canopy...etc. Finally, consider the mail order houses if you have the time to wait for smaller stock to grow. Call one or two and consult their people for fast growers, limitations, etc.

#62192 12/28/05 11:40 AM
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Consider planting conifers twice as far away as you think you should from ground (or the pond) you don't want them to cover when they grow. Then go a little farther away than that and actually plant them.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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#62193 12/28/05 09:54 PM
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While conifers are not always the greatest tree to view, they do provide year-round privacy.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#62194 12/28/05 10:10 PM
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That's why I've got them. I have planted them near the line separating us from the subdivision next door and between the pond and the nearest neighbor's house. Deer predation on the small (<2ft) seedlings I pick up cheap from the local Soil & Water office each year can be pretty bad; some years I lose 80%, but I keep plugging away each year. The ones by the subdivision have been in as long as 12 years and are really starting to jump each year and provide a significant presence.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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#62195 12/28/05 10:22 PM
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They also provide shade , year-round color and a wind break.
















#62196 12/28/05 10:51 PM
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Theo...
a quick synopsis, please, of the types of conifers that you are referring to...particularly regarding deer predation and growth rates. I, too, am going to be planting conifers this coming year to develop a screen. I just conferred with the state wildlife biologist a couple of days ago, at the pondsite, about this exact subject. I told him that my research indicates that eastern white pine would be a quick growing native species for my soil and location. Both he and the NRCS agent replied similarly: the deer eat 'em like popcorn. That, and they don't do well in filtered sunlight (planned in an area of established hardwood that is to be thinned). They both recommended spruce. The deer are much less attracted to them and they will grow in filtered sunlight. The preferred, quick grower is Norway spruce.

#62197 12/28/05 11:28 PM
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I have heard that white pine is not that good due to their dropping of branchs/debris; for example, you would not want one near your house as it would deposit all kinds of stuff on the roof.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#62198 12/28/05 11:47 PM
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If you have a dam I would strongly suggest against planting any trees along its edge, as the roots will cause holes and your pond will leak or worst. If on the other hand you're not planting by the dam, at 10-15' from the ponds edge the roots will enter into the sides of your pond causing possible leakage as well, not to say anything about sucking the pond dry during times of drought "causing lower water levels" pine needles are also VERY MESSY. I would suggest some other form of border, nice old style wood fence maybe.
However, if you have it in your mind to plant trees, go with a spruce, they're very slow growing though, but they're deer resistant. The only advantage trees have to your pond is shade, which will help keep the water cooler during those hot days of summer. The same thing can also be accomplished by moving the cooler water from the bottom to the top by way of pumps ect. :-)

#62199 12/29/05 07:48 AM
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For 12 years or so, I have been planting mixed conifer packets as these are the cheapest way for me to acquire 1' to 2' seedlings. They include equal numbers of White Pine, Scotch Pine, Austrian Pine, Blue Spruce, Norway Spruce, and a 6th species that I can't for the life of me remember right now. Survival rates, best to worst, have been: 1) Scotch Pine and Norway Spruce, 2) Austrian Pine and Blue Spruce, 3) White Pine, and 4) ??? Species (perhaps you can see why it is not foremost in my mind). Deer predation is not the only hazard these seedlings have faced, but survival drops off the farther the trees are away from neighbor's houses and the trees by the pond (which have no close neighbor presence) are eaten on the worst, so I feel the deer are harder on them than anything else.

This year I experienced a new form of deer damage; there were buck rubs on a couple of the Spruces which broke off branches. But as a deer hunter, that's kind of neat in itself. I think both affected trees should survive but will have to see how they do in 2006 to really know.

My personal favorites are the Scotch Pine and the Spruces; I find Austrian Pine kind of homely. But for my purpose of hiding the neighbors from my view, all of them will work. (It's hard to be master of all you survey on only 43 acres.)

45 years ago my Dad planted most of these same species in a border around his back yard, so I have some long-term opinions based on his experience. The Spruces do grow the slowest (I would say Blue is slower than Norway), and lose relatively few branches. White Pine grows by far the fastest and, having very soft wood, loses a lot of branches. I get called into Dad's at least twice a year to cut up large (up to 10" last year) storm-dropped branches with the chain saw; they are always from his White Pines. Scotch Pines Dad planted which were in the shade died; ones his next door neighbor put in which got lots of sunlight did very well and probably fell in between the White Pines and the Spruces in terms of growth rate.

All of these trees of course drop predigious amounts of needles which are pretty acidic and preclude almost everything from growing well underneath the trees. Personally, I would not want any of them growing at the edge of my pond. Since the needles do not seem to blow as far as leaves dropping from deciduous trees, conifers planted back aways from a pond probably put less organic matter into the pond than maples, oaks, etc.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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#62200 12/29/05 08:41 AM
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As always, Theo, a well thought out presentation. I am inclined to believe this delivery is not a parody since there are no trees identified as Pinus Tufftagrowus. \:D But seriously folks, we moved into our crib 10 years ago. This, our principal residence, was a naked beanfield so we planted Austrian Pines, Norway Spruce, and Gray Birch. We chose these species based on minimal research and mostly the recommendation of the guru at a mail-order nursery named Carino (out east...PA?) The soil is hi clay content (can't guess at the acidity level), and gets decent water due to surrounding run-off. All trees arrived bare root, 2-3 year seedlings, probably 24" - 36" long. The Birch (a kissing cousin to White Paper Birch, but minimal exfoliation...beautiful white color) grew like weeds and are about 25 - 30' tall, 4-5" caliper. The Austrian are 12' tall, 10' wide, and 5-6" caliper. The Norway Spruce started slow first 3 years, then took off; they are 7-8' tall, perfectly conical, 2-3" caliper and growing 1-1.5' taller per year. Based on research, Austrian Pine is probably the strongest survivor/fastest grower of conifers. It is the tree of choice of DOT because of it's tolerance to lousy soil, lousy atmoshere, lousy location. This is why they are often used along highways. Personally, I like their appearance due to their stout construction and very long, thick needles. The Norways are also v tolerant in all respects...but will grow to mammoth proportions. (All heed Theo's warning: when you are sure you have left enuff room for growth, increase by 150-200%). Norway is the selected tree for many major metro Christmas trees. It's beauty declines, tho, at maturity as it's branches begin to droop severely and it loses it's handsome firm posture. Kinda like Sprucis-osteoporosis (the door's open, Theo...take it and run!). The one thing we did anticipate and planned very well was create a wall of varying species of conifers as a screen. We would go to the nurseries at the end of the season and buy the orphans...the trees that got passed over because of minor growth defects that are easily corrected with pruning shears and a year or two of patience. We mixed these in with our mail order trees and I, too, have a few that I cannot remember their names (scientific names, not postal) for the life of me. The second well planned move was to plant the Birches in clumps (recommended practice) just in front of the green wall of conifers. Now that the green wall is starting to catch up to the white foreground, the view is marvelous! In the fall, the leaves on the Birch turn bright yellow; this, along with the clumps of white trunks, plays wonderfully off of the dark green background.

#62201 12/29/05 08:57 AM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by GENE13:
If you have a dam I would strongly suggest against planting any trees along its edge, as the roots will cause holes and your pond will leak or worst. If on the other hand you're not planting by the dam, at 10-15' from the ponds edge the roots will enter into the sides of your pond causing possible leakage as well, not to say anything about sucking the pond dry during times of drought "causing lower water levels" pine needles are also VERY MESSY.
Gene13, a perfect summary of what I have experienced also...except to add that pine trees may well be the worst in terms of structural damage done.

#62202 12/29/05 09:07 AM
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Anyone ever use Leyland Cypress? I was going to use them (as well as other conifers) along my yet to be constructed driveway and near my soon (hopefully) to be renovated pond.

#62203 12/29/05 11:25 AM
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From my experience, deer like the longer leafed pines like the white over the short leaf pines like the spruce. This year I lost a cherry tree, apple tree and peach tree to browsing, and another apple and peach to rubbing. I let the weeds grow around most of my pines, which seemed to mostly keep the deer away (or the trees hidden.) I lost some to rabbits, but not too many. Of all 250 trees I put out last year, the only things doing well are the pines and the sycamores. Everything else succumbed to the drought or critters.


Shawn


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