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#60660 11/03/05 06:28 PM
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Picking up where we left off...

It looks like they want me to put something like 400 feet of plastic pipe in the lake. This is for a 5-6 ton unit. I want to try something different.

I can build a radiator out of hard copper pipe. I picture a 2" manifold branching into multiple 3/4 or 1/2 inch rods. I can find the thermal transfer characteristics of copper on the net, and then build it twice as big. Can't loose too much heat, right? I can silver solder it up tight so it won't leak.

Now the good part...I bet the fish would love it!

Wadda ya think?


Hey Moe, I'm trying to think but nuthin's happening!
#60661 11/03/05 07:59 PM
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 Quote:
Now the good part...I bet the fish would love it!
Hot in the Summer, Cold in the Winter - sounds like the rental house we lived in when we were first married.


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#60662 11/03/05 08:05 PM
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Jersey- You would need more than 400ft, mine is at 4 ton and at 900ft. I posted these before, it should give you a idea of the area covered
- Brian


Ted Kennedys car killed more people than my gun ever did.
#60663 11/04/05 09:25 AM
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The company that installed my system used poly pipe similar to Mr. Willy's. They formed a "mat" about 50'x50' out of plastic snow fence by zip tying it together. Coils of the poly pipe were spread neatly across the mat, layed flat, and zip tied to the mat along with concrete blocks for weight. The whole contraption was drug into the pond. The installers said they prefered to do it in when ponds were frozen so they could built it in place and just let it sink. The installers also said they were putting in a 100 ton system to heat the new horse arena and stables at the Fairgrounds. This system would use 20 of these "mats" sunk in the nearby quarry. Just thought it was interesting.




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
#60664 11/04/05 09:25 AM
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900 FEET !!!

I'm starting to like this radiator idea more and more!


Hey Moe, I'm trying to think but nuthin's happening!
#60665 11/04/05 02:50 PM
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"I can build a radiator out of hard copper pipe. I picture a 2" manifold branching into multiple 3/4 or 1/2 inch rods."

Jersey, I hate to break up a good brainstorm but
from this description I am imagining something that resembles a TV antenna with either A:the copper pipes ending and capped off or B: routing back to the manifold. If this is what you are invisioning I think there may be a problem with your design. If your idea is method A: the fluid will pass from the inlet straight through the manifold and directly to the outlet with little heat loss/gain (depending if you are in Heat/cool mode). If method B: the fluid running through the rods will cross/mix with the fluid traveling through the manifold resulting in fluid exiting not at it's full exchange potential lessening the systems efficiency.

Copper makes sense because of it's conduction properties and longevity. It seems that a long (how long?) continuous coil would be simpler, more effective, and not require a manifold. Aluminum has even better properties than copper but the costs of both are very high.

So far everyone is telling me not to aerate unless my pond is over 20' deep or very large since my system was designed without the consideration of aeration. I expect a communication from my manufactures engineer(s) on Monday hopefully with some definite answers.

Another thought to ponder for those putting in new systems would be to go with an open loop system. A well would have to be drilled or some other water source, and the water would be pumped through the system and discharge into the pond. Keeping it full. Could possibly support trout if properly designed. The discharge water could be sprayed adding a little aeration too.




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
#60666 11/04/05 03:51 PM
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Actually, I was envisioning two 2" copper pipes spaced about 10' apart and connected together with maybe twenty 1/2" copper tubes. One 2" pipe would be the intake manifold, the other the exhaust manifold. The water would have to flow through the 1/2" tubes.

The geothermal heat pump is for my house, not the pond. The pond serves as a source of heat in the winter, and as a place to dump heat in the summer. The one I am looking at claims to be 350% efficient.

Remember I am in Georgia and will have a 7 acre pond with a spring fed creek in it. Stagnation won't be an issue.


Hey Moe, I'm trying to think but nuthin's happening!
#60667 11/04/05 08:37 PM
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Jersey, you have inspired me to research and compare prices (please tell my boss how you did it).

Prices per Graingers

400 feet 1.25" plastic pipe - $300

"radiator" total $900+
Qty 20 10'joints 1" copper - $300
Qty 1 10' joint 2" copper - $75
Qty 40 2"x2"x3/4" copper tees - $520
(sorry, couldn't find them 2"x2"x1/2")
Qty 40 3/4"x1/2" reducers - $40

Now we know why commercial installers use great lengths of plastic pipe.


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#60668 11/07/05 07:00 AM
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Mr Freeze...
....so darn glad that you decided to jump in on the forum. I am in the midst of a 5a pond in the midwest that will have a retirement home built next to it in about 4 years or so. I am twistin' my brain and relying heavily on this forum to prepare and execute all the smart stuff before the hole fills up. We cut in a driveway and cleared an opening in the forest this year for the project and plan to bottomscape and build the dam next summer/fall.
I am very hands-on and have always been intrigued by geothermal heat pumps. I have a buncha questions, but my focus is mostly on the preparation related to the near term. I love the idea of the snow fence and cinderblock idea. Considering my project and knowing that the building site will be about 100 ft p/m from the waterline, what would you do to prepare? I envision laying a mat of pipes in the bottom and running the supply and return ends back up thru the soil below the frost line to the approx area of the home. Then, maybe cap the ends and bury them with a marker? Will the field be a floating problem? How do the pros run the supply/return? Are there multiple supply/returns for different zones in case one fails?

#60669 11/07/05 07:43 AM
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Theo,
Now that's the part I hadn't figured out yet. Hmmm...I may have to do some more research. \:\(


Hey Moe, I'm trying to think but nuthin's happening!
#60670 11/07/05 08:59 AM
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If you figured out all the heat transfer coefficients (an ME could do it; I probably could have done it 25 years ago right after taking a required ME heat transfer class) you could know what size copper radiator would be equivalent to what length of plastic pipe (probably have to figure relative flow restrictions due to friction as well), but there's a sizable material cost difference and I think the labor would be the real killer (unless you really enjoy soldering). There might be some circumstances (very small backyard pond) where it might be prohibitive to fit in a great big length of pipe where the radiator approach might make more sense.

Different thought, same thread: I was thinking about sediment and muck covering the pipe (or radiator) on the bottom of a pond and I don't think it would hurt the heat transfer any/much. You'd still be thermally tied into the Earth's mass, by wet mud/muck.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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#60671 11/07/05 12:23 PM
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following Theo's comment regarding bottom muck....
When the line is buried in normal soil at the correct depth, the temp is nearly constant throughout the year at approx 57 degrees, p/m. When it is in a pond at 8' min depth, what are the temp swings? Is it possible that it is advantageous to bury the lines below the pond bottom surface to achieve the temp consistency that cools best in the summer and heats best in the winter? I guess the bottom line is: what are the ambient temps at 8 - 10 feet deep in a pond in the midwest during hottest summer and coldest winter temps?

#60672 11/07/05 05:52 PM
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Brettski, I am by far an expert on Geo systems and can only speak from my limited experience on my own. I recommend getting as much info as you can from an insaller and or manufacturer. For planning purposes I can give you a few tidbits I picked up that may benifit you. Putting the loop in before the pond fills is a good idea because a trench had to be dug to mine after it was filled resulting in a spot that has been difficult to smooth out and a steep hole where they didn't fill it back in enough just below the water surface. My installer said that the inlet/outlet pipes need to be a certain distance apart and not cross water lines if possible because the ground will freeze deeper where the geo is sucking heat out of the ground. Will the mat float? I'm not sure. I would contact installers and leave it up to the pros. I'm a big doityourselfer, but I believe repairs/replacement later would be expensive if not done correctly.




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
#60673 11/07/05 05:53 PM
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As far as the muck goes, the manufacturer did say that it wouldn't be a problem for basically the same reason as Brettski theorized.




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
#60674 11/07/05 08:10 PM
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Ryan,
your note about the trench is pretty much the first thing that popped into my little brain when I started considering possible advantages of doing this before water retention. So, there is a trench that is below frost line (perhaps well below) that the lines run in from the pond to the home foundation...? Are there basically 2 lines (supply & return), or are there multiple loops. I read somewhere in the near past that it is normal to set up multiple loops in case one fails. In fact, I believe it related to a soil burial project and the extra loops were not even employed....cheap insurance in case one fails. Regarding the loop grid, can you paint a picture of the layout and spacing of the 900 linear feet? I have to imagine that alot of the piping was very close to a neighboring line. Was any of it left in a "factory coil", or was it all stretched out? Oh yeah, just a little more....how big is the temp controlled area and how many ton unit? What brand?
thx

#60675 11/08/05 07:58 AM
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Brettski, go back to my original post that this spun off of 1st pond 1st post, my story some of your questions can be answered there. I will find out exactly how many feet of poly pipe was used and try to get a picture of a mat. 5ton system, 3500sq ft. plus 2000 sq ft basement.




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
#60676 11/08/05 01:31 PM
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done, duh, thanks

#60677 11/08/05 04:41 PM
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Here's the bad news about geothermal. According to information I just received from Climate Master Engineers via a rep. from my HVAC installers "Absolutely under no circumstances aerate your pond. You want an ice layer to form in winter and the pond to be stratisfied in summer in order for the system to operate properly." This is just in the case of my 1/2acre pond and my system. Others may have different scenarios. If a person is planning to aerate and use a closed pond loop Geothermal system, they should consult their manufacturer or qualified installer prior to installation to see if it is possible or pursue other Geo or traditional alternatives.




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
#60678 11/08/05 08:39 PM
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I've posted on geo-thermal before. Why is everyone sinking piping in their ponds? If you have a strong ground water source, just pump from your well through the geo units and dump to the pond. Ground water has a consistent temperture year round, and you save a bundle on all the piping and pumps needed for a close loop system. I hope no one fishes these ponds? One sharp hook in a pipe and all your anti-freeze goes into the pond. I'm sure the piping is tough to penitrate, but you have to careful. I'm been using a "pump and dump" set up for 5 years now in cold michigan, and my home is cool in the summer and toasty in the winter. I did have to spend more on an upgraded well, but the additional cost isn't nearly what these close loop installers charge, and open loop systems are way more efficient than close loop. Check out the manufacturers efficiency specs of the machinery with each style of loop. Open loop is much more efficient, an lower cost to install. The only catch is you need a realible source of ground water to pump. Just my thoughts.

#60679 11/08/05 08:44 PM
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Country....
soakin' up the input....many thanks. Is the well source the same that you use for drinking water? If yes, I assume that you just tap off of the pressure tank and go directly to the heat pump? What about mineral build up in the heat pump unit due to un-softened water?

#60680 11/09/05 11:30 AM
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Good thread. After reading these posts and researching further I think the open loop route is the way we'll go. I think the flow rate of our well is sufficient but I'll have to check it out.I'd certainly like to hear more about the mineral deposits and if any type of filtration is needed for the iron.
Chip


#60681 11/09/05 04:10 PM
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In my case my well for the house would not have produced enough water for both the Geo and normal water useage. The cost for an additional well exceeded the cost of the loop. Only by about $300+additional electric lines. The rep also said it was cheaper to circulate water as opposed to pumping water 1 way. Keeping the pond fuller and the ability to add aeration are definitely attractive benefits of an open loop system. I'd be interested in finding out if the efficiency increase outweighs the cost of pumping. If my loop were to fail I will seriously reconsider the open loop system.

Sounds like Chip has the same rusty water up in Lima as we do. I'm interested in answers about mineral build up but I never heard of anyone in my area's pipes clogging due to mineral build up before it gets to the softener. I let my softener in a house I lived in up the road run out of salt once and it turned my shower bright orange in just a couple of days. Took some nasty chemicals to remove the stains.

Seems like we're raising more questions than answers. I'm surpised their isn't an HVAC expert that is also a PB member.




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
#60682 11/09/05 06:20 PM
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I have been considering and reading about systems for a while now, and it seems like the perfect type of system if you have a place to loose the heat like a pond or abundant well. I have learned a lot about them, but have not yet seen a spec on the output water temp, or the heat rise of the system.

Now, I know that plastic isn't a very good conductor of heat, so it makes sense that it would take a lot of submerged plastic pipe to loose 3 or 4 tons of heat. I'm just surprised to hear 900 feet!

That's still why I like my copper radiator idea. I guess I need to do some reasearch into the heat transfer characteristics of PVC and copper. Pretty exciting, huh?


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#60683 11/09/05 06:28 PM
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Does the geo system include a heat exchanger for your domestic water?
That would be free hot water in the summer.


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Ric
#60684 11/10/05 11:10 AM
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Ric, yes my system does "preheat" the water entering into my water heater. It does so in both winter and summer. I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes but a recent flyer sent from our power company said about 20% of an all electric home's power consumption is due to heating water. All the Geo systems I looked at had this feature built in ready for plumbing to the water heater.




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
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