Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Georgia Giant Put to the Test?

ML and Bill,

I'm ok with pushing up the stocking rates as long as we stay within reason. Perhaps I can ask my local expert to put some parameters around when to aerate.

ML,

With my pond being so low, I might opt to wait out the rain and stock later in the year so we can get a good number of fish. What do you think? Surely this dry weather will break soon?

I have $350 of seed on the ground right now, I hope like heck it breaks. :rolleyes:

Gator

Deb,

Update on the water sample.

Funny story - My 6 year old had "pond water" for lunch today. Seems there was a mix up in the fridge this morning and he ended up with my sample in his lunch bag. Mom had a near melt down and ran up to the school, but it was too late...yes, son you had pond water.

I will collect another sample this weekend.

Gator

Gator,

I just don't like this weather pattern right now. We are normally getting Pacific fronts by now that bring 2 to 3 inches of rain a week, sometimes more.

Every front has passed through dry so far this fall season and the same is forecast for this weekend's front.

I haven't heard from Deb this week, but pushing back the stocking date would be fine with me and might give us a chance to see if this pattern is going to break or not. Let's hope it does.

Hey guys,

Sorry I have not posted responses to the above, but I have been on the road with the Expo since about 6:30 Tuesday morning. Give me a few hours to play catch up here in the office, and I will get back on here and post. Also ML I will look for and answer your email.

Thanks,

Deb

Hey Deb your pretty sharp, go post some ideas in the other threds and through your weight around a littel but ......no harm ment by it...just a suggestion....

Thank you, but my limited experience in this field has all been with my current employer. There is such a vast amount of learning to be had and shared on this forum, I am not sure what I could offer. With almost every post I read (things other than GG related of course), I find myself either agreeing with what someone has just said, or asking myself the same question that was posted. I may however try a few on for size .

This is how I see things to date (we might need to get a new thread going once this project starts so no one [including myself] will get lost). We have been discussing doing experiments with the GG bream in two different ponds in Texas (for any persons who have not kept up). ML will go with GG and HSB and use his expertise and experience to raise this pond. Gator will go with GG and LMB and follow most of the recommendations our hatchery has.

ML- I have returned your email. Do not hesitate to email again or call if you have any questions. We are in this together!

Gator- Sorry about the school lunch ordeal. Your water must be pretty clear. As for the aerator debate:

110 volt and 220 volt are the same price. Both are ½ horsepower units that perform well. There is however a few differences we need to discuss.
QUESTION #1- How far is your power source (meter box) from the outlet where you will plug in the aerator? I ask this because if your plug in site is 100 feet or more from your meter box, I am afraid you will have too much of a pull on the 110 unit. There could be quite a distance for the power to travel. On the other hand if you are closer than 100 feet you should be fine.
Electrical - 110 unit pulls 6.8-6.9 amps on start up whereas the 220 only pulls about 3.6 on start up. Both units come with 50 foot of submersible cord, but the 220 will not have a plug on the end (just bare wire). There is such a variety of male to female plugs for the 220 volt, that we leave the connection up to the homeowner. Not a hard job, and it does not cost much, but I want to give you as many facts as I can.
Personally I do not think the 220 will be overkill by any means. When it comes to DO levels, especially since your pond is low right now (and the weather is unpredictable), I think that “the more the better” would apply in your situation. Keep in mind both units cost the same, so the decision should not be based on the $ factor.

1. We will reduce the number of fish, and increase the size (if you wish too).
2. Leave the dye out of the equation, and we can re-evaluate in the spring.
3. The BOM does not kill bugs, but it instead provides a live protein source at night for the fish. It is our “sadist” bug light (cuts off arms or legs wounding the bugs so they drop into the water and wiggle around). It runs off 110 volt and is a good investment if you want to go that route (free food).

We generally only run our truck twice a year into Texas (spring and fall), so I would like to get these to you in November with ML’s load (to do a true growth comparison). Otherwise it will be March or April before we return to your area. You however know your pond and your finances better than anyone, so go with whatever is comfortable to you.

QUESTION #2- Do you have access to the Gambusia minnows or do I need to bring some? I can bring you 1000 for .10 each if you need me too.

I am still ½ asleep from this past week, so if I am forgetting anything please let me know.

Thanks,

Deb

The same results can be expected from 110 or 220 units. Some even use the same motor that is jumpered to run on either voltage. 220 is not an overkill, but as Deb said, it will draw 1/2 the current, thus will not get the loss of voltage in the cable(voltage drop). Current is what causes voltage drop.
Gator, if you are not within the 100ft, I can let you know what size cable you will need to run.

Gambusia minnows at .10 each, I have a 1/2 price sale going...I'll sell them for a nickle each

Gambusias are expensive as far as baitfish go. But they apparently do a good job of staying alive in ponds, and in the marketplace.

Ok, A couple of updates:

1. I have a new water sample, will send this week.

2. The dirt work is finished, they did a great job. The pond will be a maximum of 100' x 100' at normal full level. The drought continues. I'm leaning toward waiting for rain before stocking.

3. All existing fish decided to leave, man - that Rotenone really does the job.

4. On the aeration issue. I will use 110v (for previously stated reasons). My brother is handling the wiring issues - it is over 100 feet. He is a Master electrician + we are wiring my cabin in the next few weeks anyway. I still see no reason to run the aeration during the cool season.

5. Deb, on the Gambusias. I haven’t looked around yet. It’s been busy. Assuming your price is a good as others I get them from you. Eastland offered a ½ price sale (does that include shipping Eastland? ) Deb, I assume I will get the LMB from you to.

We need to decide on stocking rates. I was waiting to see what ML was doing on his pond.

Here is a updated photo of the pond (those are my two youngest boys standing beside it to give you an idea of size):

Sounds good! I will check your sample and call you this week (make sure your phone numbers are provided on the sample).

On the LMB, we generally sell out in early summer and are only left with the large ones. Do you have a reliable source for LMB?

You might want to email ML. He and I have already ironed out all the details on his pond. We may can do a three way call at some point.

Deb

Deb,

Sample in the mail.

I like ML's stocking rates, they will work for me too.

I also like the idea of the larger GGs.

Eastland fisheries has Gambusia's for a nickle a fish. Any chance you can match this reputable supplier?

I'm a month or so away from having electricty out to the pond. If I get in a bind, Burgermeister has volunteered to help. Thanks BM.

On the LMB - Can I wait until spring or should I stock now? What is my target LMB size now/spring?

I will call this week to go through the details...I prefer giving the weather a chance here (for rain) before stocking. According to my weather caster friend, we are in for a "wetter than normal" fall/winter.

Gator

Gator,

I sure hope your friend is right on the weather.

Just when is this wetter weather supposed to start? Sooner the better, as far as I'm concerned.

I've started working on my pond again. It'll rain. It'll rain a lot.

BrianH,

If you are still interested in a couple or more of GG's for your aquarium, my offer still stands. You can follow Deb's posts to see when they will be coming to East Texas.

Update time:

I just tested Gator’s water, and here are the results: (0.058419 grains per US gallon = 1 ppm)

pH = 7.0
Total Hardness= 17
Total Alkalinity= 17
Total Ammonia= 1.2 ppm

I am going to give my recommendations on this, and then I would like a weigh-in from others who are a lot more experienced in treating water quality. Also I believe Bruce is the HSB specialist, so I would like his opinion on what the quality must be to raise the HSB (as Meadowlark plans to do with his GG). As a general rule we have always stuck with 51 as the minimum total hardness for the hybrid stripes, so I would like other opinions please.

First and foremost the ammonia situation needs to be addressed. I have found microblift to be very effective on ammonia, but Cody or someone else might need to comment here. Gator did not state how deep the sample was taken from. We need to get him below .8 ppm before stocking. He also did not state how long it had been since he killed off the pond. This could also be affecting the levels (organic decay?).

As for the Hardness and Alkalinity we would normally suggest Cal-Plus and bufferin to raise these levels, but I am admittedly on the fence on this subject since being a part of this forum. If others here say to go with the ag lime, then let’s do it. In fact we do recommend doing this on new ponds (it is even in our catalog). The main thing is the end result of getting these numbers up for Gator.

Question to the forum-
We have always used the hydrated lime @ 25 lbs per acre per week to raise really low pH levels prior to stocking. Gator does not have a pH problem from what I see, but my question is in regards to dolomite lime with the high ammonia. Does the rule still apply not to lime at all until ammonia is fixed? It stands to reason that this would be the case, but again this is not my area of expertise so any comments based on experience would be appreciated.

Thanks guys,

Deb

Try these for info. ewest

ammonia

http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/8345539-463fs.pdf

water quality factor interrelationships

http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/8345539-464fs.pdf

All,

Deb and I spoke on the phone and discussed the possible cause of the higher than desired ammonia. One thing to consider is the absence of rain. Basically the pond has been sitting since early May "cooking" all summer with no additional water.

The point being: If we get the much needed rain, perhaps the ammonia issue may revolve itself? The pond is at 1/2 its normal capacity.

I am not a big fan of adding anything unless it is absolutely required. Perhaps we should retest after we receive more rain. Then make adjustments at that time. Any comments?

Gator

Deb and Gator, I think Deb's ammonia test results are too high based on the present condition of Gator's pond. I am wondering about the accuracy of Deb's test for ammonia OR the sample was not stabilized (preserved) before shipment and ammonia accumulated or built up in sample after it was collected.

Typically samples collected for ammonia analysis should be tested as soon as possible after collection. If analysis cannot be made immediately or soon after collection BUT if analysis is to be delayed for up to 24 hours then the sample must be preserved with either mercuric ion or sulfuric acid. I doubt Gator preserved the sample before sending it to Deb.
Also several common substances such as iron or sulfides can interference with the ammonia test. Other less common substances can also skew the test results. The type of test method used is affected differently by the above noted interferences of iron or sulfide. Sometimes the water sample needs to be distilled before it is tested for ammonia.

I am not a chemist but I do know enough to be wary of high test results especially if the sample has been shipped OR stored and the chemical being tested is not a real stable substance in pond water. Pond waters with fish densities of few, normal or no fish are not normally high in ammonia. I personally think before we conclude that Gator has high ammonia levels and that it needs to be fixed, we should have some input from PaPond who is a retired chemist from PA and who sometimes frequents this forum. Another chemist that I am not aware of may also be able to help out here.

Additional note. The hardness conversion factor for converting grains per gallon to ppm or mg/L is 17.1. Thus Gator's total hardness is in the ball park of 290 mg/L.

My experience with HSB in Ohio indicates that they do well in water with total hardness ranging from 200 -300 mg/L. Bruce condello can confirm his results from the midwest.

Quote from "Culture and Propogation of Striped Bass and it's Hybrids" edited by Harrell, Kerby and Minton states the following:

"It is generally accepted that water with a total hardness greater than 150 ppm is very good for phase I culture. Under hatcherty conditions, excellent phase I crops have been reared in fresh water ranging in hardness from 60-600 ppm".

"Stress problems resulting in mortality have also occurred in striped bass and hybrids when handling fish transferred from hard water to very soft water. Hybrids are somewhat more tolerant than striped bass to soft water, but should not be subjected to radical changes in water hardness".

That said, my hardness in all of my ponds ranges from 400-480 ppm so it's not an issue for me. I couldn't find any other references as to minimum hardness needed for HSB survival.

Thanks a lot Bruce for the informative reply!. Is PaPond or another chemist out there?

Follow-up information for Bill.

The sample was several days old, collected on a Monday, tested on a Thursday.

Also, I will be stocking LMB for preditors.

Gator

Ok, now I am totally confused with the water quality issue . The following quote is from Water Doctor’s website:

“What does GPG or grains per gallon mean?
Parts per million or grains per gallon are both used to describe the dissolved hardness minerals contained in water. One part per million (PPM) is one unit of a substance out of one million units of water. Grains, or grains per gallon (GPG), is a unit of weight. It is 1/7000 of a pound. One GPG, (1gpg) is equal to 17.1 PPM.”

http://www.waterdrs.com/hardwater.htm

(Now I know why I stayed away from chemistry and physics ). The the gentleman who did the test in Texas said that Gator’s water was less than 17 ppm. Also Greg stated under water chemistry the following:
"Deb, ok you are right we are going in circles. It is not my equation it is the standard way by most everyone in the pond industry. I use the same method to get the alkalinty and hardness, excpet I use a more expensive digitial titrator and can read direct results directly or use a calcualtion to get true ppm (or mg/l) Total Hardness. The formula you are using is based on the same thing, if not why do you come up with a completely differnt chart than anyone to send out to clients with the water quality report. They ssume it is total hardness and recommmend 120 when eveyrone else recommends 20ppm". But Bruce just said 60-600 ppm. HELP???
Please realize this is not a knock on the gentleman in Texas who tested the water, or on Greg (we had a nice long talk on the phone the other day and have respctfully agreed to disagree on some issues), but this is why I am still confused. Cody to the rescue please!!! I want Gator to be set up right with the water quality, and I am leaving this up to the pros (not me)!

As for the ammonia test, the procedure itself is fairly simple, but Cody is correct in the changes that can happen “in route”. When his water sample arrived it was relatively clear, but the pictures he showed here on the thread had an algae skim on the water surface. This would decay in route to me and raise ammonia levels, right Cody? Also this pond had been stagnant for a long period of time. My concern is in stocking a pond with any raised ammonia levels at all. The stress caused going from low ammonia to high could kill the fish But if the levels are low onsite, then we should be ok. As Gator said he would rather not have to add any thing.
How far do Overton and Lusk live from Gator’s pond? An onsite test would be better so we can get this accurate. As I stated in the beginning I really wanted Gator’s water test sent to me for selfish reasons. I am trying to learn this also and wanted to see the comparisons.

Thanks for the input/advice Bill and Bruce -

Deb

From what I understand Gator's land is in the pine belt and has acid soil. I would expect that if ag lime has not been added the alka. reading is 17 mg/L or 17 on a standard Hatch kit test, which is low. If so he will need ag lime. See below which is from above links ( the link covers ph, alka., CO2 & hardness in detail) :

Ideally, an aquaculture pond
should have a pH between 6.5 and
9 as well as moderate to high total
alkalinity (75 to 200, but not less
than 20 mg/L) and a calcium hardness
of 100 to 250 mg/L CaCO3.
Many of the principles of chemistry
are abstract (e.g., carbonate-bicarbonate
buffering) and difficult
to grasp. However, a fundamental
understanding of the concepts and
chemistry underlying the interactions
of pH, CO2, alkalinity and
hardness is necessary for effective
and profitable pond management.
There is no way to avoid it; water
quality is water chemistry.

Agricultural limestone can be used
to increase calcium concentrations
(and carbonate-bicarbonate alkalinity)
in areas with acid waters or
soils. However, at a pH of 8.3 or
greater, agricultural limestone will
not dissolve. Agricultural gypsum
(calcium sulfate) or food grade calcium
chloride could be used to
raise calcium levels in soft, alkaline
waters.

Chronically high CO2 levels
can be treated chemically with
hydrated lime, Ca(OH)2. Approximately
1 mg/L of hydrated lime
will remove 1 mg/L of CO2. This
treatment should not be used in
waters with poor buffering capacity
(low alkalinity) because pH
could rise to levels lethal to fish.
Also, fish could be endangered if
hydrated lime is added to waters
with high ammonia concentrations.
High pH increases the toxicity
of ammonia.

I'll throw in a guess, a response, and a ?

The guess: Gator's land is probably similar to mine in East Texas which is acidic and highly responsive to ag. lime. However, in my experience, it does take some time for the ag. lime to have the complete effect...about three weeks in my experience. I have to apply 4 tons per acre, also to get the best results....unscientific, yes, but works for me.

Response: Todd is between Buffalo and Centerville so he is a fairly good distance from Gator, I believe. I'm going to Todd's place on Nov. 5 and would be most happy to take him a water sample, if that would help matters.

The ?: Why the high ammonia levels? Can we be reasonably confident that the delay in testing is really the cause of the high ammonia levels? Like Deb said, it would really be a shame to stock anything and have it die. Gator told me that another test taken with the same time delay, in a different pond had no ammonia...which is why I ask the question as to root cause of the ammonia levels.

Again, Gator, if it helps to unravel this, send me the water sample the day before and I'll take it directly to Todd for his testing on Nov. 5. Not speaking for Todd, but I'm confident he will be glad to do the test based on his superb willingness to help.