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Gator, I am by no means an expert, but there have been several to post. The fact that the total volumn is small compared to when it fills, and that it is already on the low side, and it takes time for ag lime to dissolve, this is the perfect time to add lime. If you dont, I think you will be in trouble(or the fish anyway). Maybe I missed it, but has anyone recommended a soil sample to see if, when it is filled, it will still have any hardness? In a new pond, by spring there should be plenty of critters for the small fish without fertilizing.(if it ever rains) What will be the feeding regimen? Maybe we are all getting way ahead, huh? Best of luck. If you or your brother need help with the electrical, just holler.
Maybe Todd can set up the pond parameters; I wonder if he would divulge his chemistry for those nice wipers he posted. and maybe a couple people will come out of the Ga. meeting and volunteer for 2 small pond experiments there.


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ewest almost identical results here. However we can get it to stay above 20 ppm for 3-4 years with 4 tons/ac unless they have high flow regimes. We due use hydrated lime ( only 3 times last year) but only if not possible to get in bulk lime.

Gator, there maybe readily available phosphorus naturally in your area, if then like Meadowlark stated lime is worth it. In GA that is not the case, many studies on effects of liming alone and little return on investment. So..it might be worth it even without fert. program. I understand fert program is tricky, but still rec. fertilization program if in GA low productivity soils without or feeding program you just have very few fish/acre.


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I have a soil test from a pasture close to this pond...does this help?

soil pH 5.93
nitrate ppm 1
Phosphotus 4 ppm
Potassium 75 ppm
Calcium 491 ppm
Magnesium 120 ppm

Recommendations:
Limestone 1 ton per acre
Nitrogen 60 lbs per acre
Phosphorus 30 lbs per acre
Potassium 55 lbs per acre
Sulfer(?) 20 lbs per acre

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Gator :

What was the recomendation for -- pond or hay or trees or row crop? It may well help . Is that field in the same drainage as the pond ? Same type of land ? Will check mine at home and reply. ewest
















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ewest,

The recommendation was for crops.

The water shed for this field is different; however, the terrain is the same. Both have the same type of soil and vegetation. It is all post oak savannah with naitive pastures.

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Gator I understand your position on fertilization. I don't fertilize either, but, the statement
 Quote:
if you are not going to fertilize, then total alkalinity is not a factor.
can be misleading & may have been taken out of context.
One may not fertilize because
1)the pond is already being fertilized from the watershed, or
2)there is no desire to produce more pounds of fish than the pond can naturally accomodate, or
3) (as may be the situation in your case with the GG test pond) due to large numbers of fish your pond produces it's own fertilizer via fish manure.
That's just three, there are many.

You're right though, limeing could complicate the management if for instance lime was the limiting factor in being able to maintain a bloom equaling 18" to 24" as read on a sishi dish.
If for example you had been maintaining a decent bloom of say 24" to 30" without adding lime, then you add lime & your bloom explodes dropping vis. quickly to 12".
It can get complicated & your cautious approach is smart.

I just wanted to point out that it's not so simple as "if you don't fertilize you don't need to lime".


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Gator - Since you don't live near the pond and can not watch or monitor it daily then I don't think you should fertlize because fertilized ponds should be monitored closely in case of dense bloom crashes, overblooming, or other water quality problems due to fertilizer additions that could be missed during your absence.

I am not fully aware of the liming techniques, doses or processes, but if you are going to lime maybe spreading it now when the pond is low will be an esay way to apply it over most of the pond bottom. You should not need too much lime since your pond is quite small.

Adding some lime should help produce a light or moderate phytoplankton bloom which will be somehwat "fertilized" from the manure of the pellet fed fish. The bloom may not be as "rich" or thick as one produced by an inorganic fertilization program, but a moderate or light bloom would I think be beneficial.

If you don't add lime, I am wondering if the extra fish manure due to feeding will cause a filamentous algae problem due to the enhanced fertility (manure) and clear water. Without increased alkalinity (lime) phytoplankton will not develop and clear water will prevail. Clear water plus fertility will either stimulate rooted weeds or bottom growing filamentous algae. Since I don't deal a lot with soft waters and fertility, I am just providing some thoughts but maybe not facts on this.


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Ric and Bill,

Thanks for input. I appreciate the fact that this is a complicated question and that is exactly my point. Adding lime is a very common practice in my area. It is done as a matter-of-fact in most ponds. I won’t throw out the common wisdom line, but it is very prevalent. Not to mention the fact now would be the perfect time to lime the pond. But, when a biologist who does this for a living and has managed ponds for 25 years, says “there is no need in my opinion”…I start to wonder, why am I doing this?

2 more considerations:

1. This pond has maintained 12” to 18” visibility all year long. Adding lime will make the water even clearer, right? This seems to be setting me up for the dreaded dye option...?

2. I will be on a year-round feeding program for the GGs. Should I be concerned with plankton blooms with the feeding program?

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Gator,

12-18 inches year around is this a green color, check with secchi disc? If so no need to fertilize in fact it makes me nervous you are getting too many nutrients already.

No lime will not clear the pond, in fact it helps phosphorus make it less clear with more phytoplankton production.

Yes feeding lots of GG will put more nutrients in the water.

I'm not there put I would trust the local pond mgmr for his advice. Yep, too many cooks in the kitchen is a bad thing.


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Gator :

I will pull out my soil test reports tonight and compare the findings and if they are close I will provide what the rec. were for a pond.

Water quality is key even if you don't fert. In high acid waters (under 20 ppm alka.) fish can easily become stressed. Such waters can only support a small fish #age per acre. If you are going to have normal to high stocking water quality is even more impt. If stressed by water with high acid effects fish , exhibit lower feeding whether plankton (natural food) or pellets, O2 levels in the water tend to be lower and the water tends to be less healthy for their growth.

Here is a simple comparison. Humans work best at a temp. of about 72f with normal cloths (pants shirt and shoes). If you are forced to work at 20f or 110f in normal cloths for an extended period of time your body won't function as well. Over time your body condition will suffer. ewest

PS : guys look at the water on pg 4 of this thread. That does not look like a 12-18 in reading or a planlton bloom to me but is at full pool and in March.
















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Gator - I tend to agree with Greg's last post of Nov 01. One thought about the local biologist's liming comments. I would double check with him about what the stocking densities (or the fish densities) were in the ponds he is referring to where you will not need lime. Does he know how many fish you are planning on putting in the test pond and that you are feeding on a daily basis?. Make sure he is not assuming you will be stocking a low or normal densitiy and not going to feed the fish. It is fine to follow his advice if you use his recomendations for stocking density. Make sure he understands the details of what you are planning on doing so you are both on "the same page" for goals of this project.


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Gator :

For what it is worth I compared your adjacant fields soil test with ours which was tested for pond usage. Your ph was 5.93 ours was 4.5 both are low. Yours is less acid. Your calcium 491 is lower than ours avg. 800 so with low calcium you have less buffering ability. The rest of the elements of the test are similar. The recomendation from our test was a total of 3 tons of ag lime per acre -- 2 tons at time of test (Oct.) 1 more ton 6 mths. later ( March). No fert. was recomended until after lime had time to work and then to slowly add powdered water sol. Pro-Sol in limited amounts to reduce visa. from 4-5 feet to 18 in. This was for existing ponds with normal levels of fish lbs. per acre ( at the time 100 lbs per acre).

Your alka. if the test is right is 17 which is below the min. requierd alka. of 20 as stated by the SRAC publications noted above. ewest
















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Thanks everyone,

Thinking about the possibility of liming this way - what would it hurt?

Nothing right? I cant think of anything...

BTW, The person who tested my water was aware of my specific stocking and feeding plans.

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I've been away quite a bit this fall but thanks to Bruce rattling my cage I'll add my 2 cents concerning the analysis of ammonia. Bill Cody is correct (as usual) ammonia must be analyzed within 24 hours to obtain the most accurate results, but even 24 hours is a long time in a solution which has the capacity ie. the critters bacteria etc. to break down ammonia into nitrite. This can be slowed down by refrigerating the sample until it can be processed. The absolute proper way to prepare the sample is to vacuum filter it through a millipore filter to remove anything over a fraction of a micron in size, followed by freezing. Usually this is done when a large quantity of samples are collected and all processed at the same time. While sulfuric acid will act as a preservative of ammonia it is usually used for industrial samples where ammonia is the end result of some reaction and is unlikely to break down into a nitrite or nitrate. These samples also are usually quite a bit more concentrated, 50 to 500 ppm range. Considering all of the potential organics that can be in pond water, the sulfuric as a preservative could cause interferences because it is a strong oxidizer, especially when we are talking the 1 to 2 ppm range for the ammonia. For the practical pondmeister who doesn't have a lab to play in, my suggestion is to but an aquarium test kit for ammonia, they are usually drop count titrations, and process the same sample two or three times. What you are looking for is consistency, if your numbers are close your technique is most likely OK and the results beleivable.
Bruce, if you are still awake after reading this I hope my opinion meets your expectation. \:D


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Thanks PaPond for the input. I consider you our resident chemist.


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The topic of liming is of paticular interest to me because I have added over 30 tons to my 2.5a pond over 4 years with no results. By this I mean I cant get my alkalinity above 15ppm. I have limited flow thru but cant get it above 15. I apply the old fashion way with a sheet of plywood on my johnboat shovel on shovel off, man alot of work for no benifit. I have started using hydrated lime 50lbs per acre and for the first time am able to get my alk up near 30 and get a good bloom. I think the limiting factor in my pond is nitrogen because I added extra nitrogen this year along with the hydrated lime and established a good bloom. I reapply the lime every 6 weeks as it drops near 20.

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PaPond,

Nice, as always! \:\)


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PaPOnd thanks I hope Deb is reading that. I think you comments have alot to do with their hihg ammonia levels received over the years.

BigJake if that works keep doing it.


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Yes Greg, I am reading every post I can. Remember I joined this forum to share our experience as well as to learn.
Thank you PaPond for that detailed explanation. That would explain alot of the high numbers we have seen. I understand the decomposition that can occur during transit, but would you mind expanding on possible high ppm concentrations on site. Also what would be your recommendation for a pond with high concentrations tested on site! Thank you again for your post. I have stated repeatedly that my grasp on water chemistry is not good. Any info you and Cody can give would be greatly appreciated.

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High Ammonia. There are certain situations where a pond can develop high ammonia or nitrite concentrations.

1.The most frequent occurrence is in ponds that are stocked with lots of fish, i.e. an aquaculture situation. As fish biomass continualy increases due to fish growth the production of ammonia is continually increasing. I add a quote from the Southern Aquaculture guide sheet: " Most pond systems probably have a finite limit to the amount of ammonia and organic loading that can be managed." I assume they mean managed naturally. Deb says she has products to help in reduction of ammonia when it becomes high. In my opinion, if ammonia levels are high the pond owner is "pushing the limit" and is in potentially dangerous fish raising territory. Unless the causative agents are reduced the potential problem will persit. A fish die off will definately reduce the problem of high ammonia.

2. Adding high amounts of feed to lots of fish will result in more ammonia produced. Over fed fish and feed waste promotes more ammonia.

3. Cooler water will suppress activity of bacteria for conversion of ammonia to nitrite and then nitrite to nitrate.

4. Phytoplankton, who absorb ammonia, will not grow as well in cooler water, thus the likelyhood of high ammonia will then be greater.

5. Use of blue dye will reduce plant growth that can directly remove ammonia. The higher the concentration of dye the more likelyhood an ammonia problem will develop.

Any of the above combinations plus maybe a few I omitted can result in high ammonia levels in a pond.

Bruce will provide additional information below.


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I'd like to add one more scenario for high ammonia concentrations, and that would be in watersheds or well fed ponds that have naturally high pH, in particular 9.0 or higher.

When the pH is high that means there are huge amounts of free hydroxyl groups (OH-) that will rob the hydrogen ion from ammonium (NH4+) yielding unionized ammonia (NH3) which is the form that is toxic to fish.

Another factor leading to high pH and consequently more unionized ammonia is the diurnal cycle of plant respiration and photosynthesis. Photosynthesis is the process whereby organisms convert carbon dioxide and water into carbohydrate and oxygen. The net reaction is:

6CO2 + 6H2O + light = C6H12O6 (carbohydrate) + 6O2

So there is net consumption of carbon dioxide during the day. This can lead to some ponds becoming deficient in CO2 during the day, raising their pH.

Incidentally, this situation can be remedied by adding alum. When aluminum sulfate reacts with water there are three H+ ions liberated which have the ability to turn unionized ammonia back to it's safer, ionized form.


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Thank you both!
Now I am really curious as to the readings I had in the lab. I am sure a large majority was decomposition of algae during transit, but with not knowing the history of Gator's pond (original stock, feeding program,...), I wonder out loud why there should be anything over .1-.2 ppm based on the factors Bill stated above. Hopefully Gator reads PaPond's suggestion about a repeated test with an aquarium testing kit. An onsite evaluation would be a really good move at this time. Gator hasn't posted lately, and I am hoping he has not been too overwhelmed. Everyone here has presented alot of good points, but there have been a truckload of them for him (and me) to absorb.

Bruce- Is aluminum sulfate also used to clear muddy water?

Thanks again guys,
Deb

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Deb, Here's the link to the first two posts I ever made on Pond Boss forum (I think).

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001127

It was an interesting thread and really got me addicted to this site. As you'll see I have quite a bit more experience using alum to affect organic concerns as opposed to inorganic problems such as silt suspension.


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I'm not Bruce, but aluminum sulfate is alum and it is used to precipitate sediment from water. Additionally it is also used to remove phosphorous from the water column and suppress phosphorus recycling from the sediments.


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I am adding here a post copied here from the following thread about the use of superphosphate to aid in FA reduction by CB1 because of the link below regarding its stabilizing effect on ammonia. Any comments whould be welcome.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=000203

CB1 :

Superphosphate is known in one form as 0-46-0 and is quite common and we use it as clearly the limiting chem. factor in our ponds is phosphorus and not nitrogen or potassium

Interesting in the link below is the comment on
trip.phosp. having a stabilizing effect on ammonia/manure.

Maybe you or Bill can tell us what that means in the context of our prior post where ammonia was discussed in relation to you growout pond. I am no chemist.ewest

http://www.omri.org/superphosphate.pdf

http://www.simplot.com/agricultural/plant/upload/Tripple-Superphosphate-0-45-0.pdf
















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